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Chapter 54 : page 4

Re: Chapter 54 : page 4

Postby Sarah » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:49 pm

Ariel: Considerate Quain'tana
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 4

Postby Moric » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:54 pm

Junglefowl26 wrote:I am amused how polite Ariel is being about all this.

Just a quick regime change, no innocents hurt, we are all home by Christmas, what could go wrong?

Things are going pretty well, but all things considered, this is the easy part. Hundreds of redshirts don't really frighten anyone with the high ground, a warship, and dozens of adventurers at their back.
Junglefowl26 wrote:...Though seriously, who exactly is she planning on leaving in charge? I can't think of local characters who would agree to this (or really any Ysians besides Kane), and the Machtikians are few in number as it is, I don't think they can afford to spread themselves thin by leaving behind a garrison.

Well, that is where it gets interesting. As this is not a Vloz colony, we can be pretty certain that the Council was not formed by popular elections. Were they benevolent or tyrannical? Was Feldian patronage more than Kyo'nne concerts and trade? What does the Wolfpack expect to extract from Ys? If the relationship is decidedly one-sided, can they realistically enforce anything more than lipservice?

I guess that we shall see.

[edit] My guess is that they seize all personal property of the Nid Councillors, all the tribute meant for Felde, deny all caravans headed to Felde, and empower a few locals and a couple of their own (Ash'waren and ?) to keep the city running as usual. Maybe even a call for volunteers. Normally the last part would be insane, but maxed Charisma and the Protagonist Flag cause strange things to happen.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 4

Postby Moatl » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:12 pm

Fun fact: Sceptical face in the window in the last panel is sceptical about the development of actions…
:P
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 4

Postby Pitdragon » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:54 pm

Kardwill wrote:"Okay, boys, the takeover has been relatively bloodless until now, but that can change...."


Kinda wanted to highlight that part because it cuts both ways. Sure, maybe some might look harder at the latter part of your statement... but the bolded part is what often motivates people to act in defense of the current rulers, regardless of their actions. If Ys has been incredibly peaceful and profitable, then what Ariel is doing really will mess up that prosperity. Especially those that left Chel with the promise that Ys is a solution to the problem of war and suffering (as Kyo'nne once promoted). Just because we know that Kane works for Snadhya doesn't mean that she's been a cruel dictator (or at least one by Drow standards), and it doesn't mean the colony has been crap. We could find out the next pages it is Hel on the Surface, but until we do we can't assume that she isn't right (though the story might just have them roll over since the chapter is chock-full, kinda hope not). Ariel's people stood up with her against impossible odds, and even if it was bloodless I suspect they would have still fought back (heck, the whole Sarghress thing was going for being as bloodless as possible before the breakdown from both Quain's situation and the attack on the kids).

Mostly because of that bolded bit. Tons of people take over with promises of good times... and then use that to subjugate the populace and later the violence begins to ramp up in little ways (beatings, humiliations, etc). Even if the beatings are delayed to when things get really rough, if the colony's resources are robbed or their lifestyle suffers, then that alone makes the trade not worth while. Who knows if the people managing the colony will be as good with money and trade as the group currently in charge.

I could see most of the colonists knowing nothing about what is going on (most people probably don't know what is going on with the Sarghs in general, as this has only played out over a week or two I'm gathering). So they're trading their life now for... what? The whims of someone that wants to rule them and thinks they can do better based upon espoused ideals and the claims that the old leadership is allied with the new guys' enemies that wronged them. People will fight tooth and nail against that if there isn't any reason want to join the liberators.

So we'll have to see.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 4

Postby Moric » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:03 pm

Pitdragon wrote:I could see most of the colonists knowing nothing about what is going on (most people probably don't know what is going on with the Sarghs in general, as this has only played out over a week or two I'm gathering). So they're trading their life now for... what? The whims of someone that wants to rule them and thinks they can do better based upon espoused ideals and the claims that the old leadership is allied with the new guys' enemies that wronged them. People will fight tooth and nail against that if there isn't any reason want to join the liberators.

So we'll have to see.

My guess is that Kel'noz already has a plan for this. Let's face it, he's like Batman + magic + sex appeal. If he somehow pulls Baliir out of nowhere to run the provisional government, I only hope that I'm not drinking anything while reading.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 4

Postby Smokehammer » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:26 pm

Kel's a powerful wizard sure, and he was decent at dealing with his mother so he does have the patience of a saint but a mostly bloodless take over will require Ash'warren and her alien mind control or as Pit pointed out - a pissed off populous to begin with. If not, well there's gonna be a big fight and if the wolf pack wins, I would assume that the Owls perch on Ys to hold it until they can fairy everyone left in Mach who didnt fit on the ship to Ys. And that could be why they want Ys in the first place *hmmm* -its land to put their displaced colony on.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 4

Postby Moric » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:29 am

Nice theory Smoke! On a number of levels, that fits. Heck, when the Legion arrives to see the abandoned ruins, a large rock can have carved, "Remember Machike! Death to Nidraa'chal! - Little Wolf".

My only caveat would be that if foreign outlaws taking Ys over doesn't cause an uprising, drawing an assault Legion down on them certainly would.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 4

Postby PSadlon » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:20 am

Moric wrote:
PSadlon wrote:Sure nowhere as many soldier are willing to throw their lives away for Kane as she would like to believe.
Of course it means war; I am pretty sure you weren't completely unaware of Sasi & Sal's mission for Snad & the Alliance. Why do you think the things set in motion would end there with the capture of the ship.

Because Ariel is obviously a naive, callow youth aided by a lowly (albeit sexy) male schoolteacher. Just because they enjoyed some minor success doesn't mean they stand a chance against Her Glorious Divinity, Snadhya'rune. Their inevitable failure will happen any second...

[edit]I included the schoolteacher part because all fanatics, regardless of religion, politics, sports, movie franchises, etc. are incapable of irony when it involves their obsession.[/edit]

I'm positive Snad is still a major obstacle possibly even one that is still insurmountable. That said, she may not be as formidable as she once was. She was left crippled and weakened with mostly her considerable cunning and manipulative talents intact. That goes a long way in her favor. That does present her some extra challenges. She is more dependent on loyalty than ever and that is a fragile thing when much of that loyalty is built on fear and lies and she has told some whoppers. Enough time and inconvenient truths can undermine her further. That said is possible she talked a new body out of the Jaals giving her enough strength. to compensate.

On the other hand much but not all of Ariel's naivety and immaturity has diminished greatly, it's still there but not what it once was. Also bear in mind that "schoolteacher" is no slouch as a strategist. He know hows to best use people's strengths and weakness to greatest effect and is capable of teaching other to do the same to the best of their own abilities. I strongly feel that for most adversaries in the Aliance that's a strong advantage, whether or not that's the case with Snad is highly questionable especially if they get the timing wrong.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 4

Postby Moric » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:57 pm

I was trying to present the argument in the perspective of Kane et al. Of course Ariel is not nearly as naive or helpless as your average Val in her 30's. Also, Kel'noz has as many plans and contingencies as Batman. That said, a ranking Nidraa'chal is prone to underestimating an opponent that is NOT tricked, fooled, misdirected, or otherwise wide open for exploitation. Actually, that's pretty much virgin territory for most Nid agents.

Snadhya was quite injured following her fight with Nishi, but the healing arts available to her likely far surpass those that left Quain'tana barren. Also, the injury was physical trauma, while I suspect Quain'tana was stabbed by a poisoned blade.

Yes, Snadhya'rune has lost some very important pieces of late: Orthorbbae, Khaless, Salbara, the airship, plausible deniability, etc. She has also gained a new crop of Nids, wholehearted support from the Nal'sarkoth, etc. She has retained a great amount of power too. Her palace in Felde may well be a harder battle than the Imperial Palace was in terms of defenses. She is also perhaps the most capable and versatile mage in the Three Worlds, so, she's a great final boss fight. ^^
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 4

Postby Ardan Styyx » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:28 pm

PSadlon wrote:That said is possible she talked a new body out of the Jaals giving her enough strength. to compensate.


That's an interesting point. Although it's more likely she would rely on protesis and bioengineering to cure her injuries instead of getting rid of her - nonetheless glorious - body, her being with a new "identity" would increase her capacity to pool the strings in secrecy, fake her death in a very convincing way and represent a remarkable - if not deadly - surprise for our heroes. However, that would most probably forbid her for good to take the position of Empress (or whatever equivalent) but, did she ever wish it? Probably not.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 4

Postby Junglefowl26 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:07 pm

Yeah, I have to agree that, while we haven't seen much of the colony, everything we have seen points to it being a good place to live full of people who came there voluntarily to escape the wars below...even the Sarghress liked it until they got kicked out for political reasons.

Now, that might be wrong, or it might have changed, since one of the Sarghress who decided to stay at first commented that things got "very political" after the Sarghress were kicked out, but nothing hints to that as of yet.

As a side note, it would be amusingly ironic if the Sarghress legion ended up taking back the colony, restoring the council and kicking out whoever Ariel leaves in charge.

Plus, it would be a pretty good way for the antagonists of this chapter to introduce themselves and show why they are a threat.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 4

Postby Smokehammer » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:46 am

Moric wrote: Also, the injury was physical trauma, while I suspect Quain'tana was stabbed by a poisoned blade.


Why? The first time they got in a fight Sarv'swati nearly cut her in half with a barbed falchion during the Skyhole incident. Its extraordinarily unlikely that sword was poisoned, because:

1) Sarv had no idea Quain would try to buy the Sarghress time by agreeing to a duel -she was after all known for not doing so

2) Siksi was a legendary warrior of great honor and she was winning that battle when the Highland Raiders managed to miraculously return from a flooded surface just as she had dealt Quain what should have been a fatal blow -that stroke of unimaginable luck seems to be what turned her from a straight up hard-ass into someone ok with underhanded tactics

3) Beyond it being weird to attribute a career of such tactics to a woman whom Sillice admired and whom Diva trusted because she was spastically deliberate (to the point of being unsuitable as Empress even) it invalidates her change of heart upon seeing the sword's poisoned blade. I doubt she wouldve used Nir'naya's poisoned blade in the second duel beyond she was going to die even if she won so why take a chance that Quain would live from yet another fatal wound? If it hadnt worked the first time, why would it work the second?

4)If it had been poisoned - a tiny scratch on the cheek didnt heal, can you imagine a broken pelvis + disembowelment being put back together with such a necrotic compound present? I cant. Even if it was a different compound anything on top of such a severe injury wouldve made it doubly impossible to recover from.

5) Anything that effected Quain's ability to heal her uterus and/or ovaries wouldve affected her ability to heal her lower intestines, pelvis, bladder/soft tissues etc. Its extremely unlikely that these guys have a poison which only effects reproductive organs that can be delivered by one disembowelment or even a precision strike by an offhand dagger we dont see in on the page above. If Sarv had been slipping it into her hair dye over a period of several moons? Ok maybe, otherwise - ehhhhh, nope.

Moric wrote: She is also perhaps the most capable and versatile mage in the Three Worlds, so, she's a great final boss fight. ^^
I think the biggest challenge to overcoming Snadhya(once they find out she's alive) in fight now will be that she shouldnt be as cocky as she once was. -That means you're eating an ARMY of rock soldiers & monsters to get to her. I say the most plausible way for these guys to kill her at this point is to have Ariel pretend to be Mel, unless whatever she has in common with Ana in terms of sorcery can see through that, it should work.

As far as her body? Well... Sharess fits into this somehow according to Zhor, so wasnt she always going to body hop? If not, the Jaals should be capable of fixing whatever is wrong with her. A broken back shouldnt be anywhere near as hard to mend as spiderfication.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 4

Postby Moric » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:07 pm

Thanks Smoke! I couldn't find all the allusions to the actual duel, and never having had access to Daydream does limit me in other ways.

I was basing my observations on the fact that Zala gave Sylphile poisoned weaponry, and my presumption of drow from D&D always using poison, always coloring my analysis. That said, I always thought that Quain'tana's poisoning from the last battle was Flower poison, not the normal kind.

I suppose that the healers were just not great, and by the time she figured out there was a problem with making babies, her body had set pretty much beyond standard healing.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 4

Postby Junglefowl26 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:04 pm

I don't think that was from DayDream. In fact, I have no idea where he got the info that Quain agreed to a duel to buy time. All we know was that Quain and Sarv fought - nothing I am aware of says whether it was an official duel or just them meeting on the battlefield.

I am also of the impression that Quain got hit with a variation of the flower poison - the effect on her face is similar to that of the Beld servant who got in the face with some, when she got the wound a big deal was made about the new poison that would be harder to cure, the conventional techniques not working on this poison, the fact that the comic took the time to point out that Sarv's partner had Nid connections...everything about this suggests to me that this not a normal poison.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 4

Postby Smokehammer » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:18 am

Its sideways supposition Jungles. While Quain wasnt known for her love of Val ways she did agree to Rosof's challenge. Much older, and influenced by Rosof, when pressed and losing it stands to reason that she would either demand or take an offer to fight Siksi one on one. We dont see anybody else in the picture and while that may be for the sake of brevity Im sure if Sarv had "jumped" Quain while she was fighting a battle against many that Quain wouldve thrown that in her face in their second fight. In fact that she took the second fight is also telling of it being more or less a formal challenge the first time, because if it hadnt been, Quain wouldve had far less reason to wish to prove she could best an already powerless Sarv'swati and probably wouldve dog'piled her with everyone there.

Now it might have been a result of Sarv'swati trying to retreat and she's the one who demanded the first fight as well to save the Sharen army but I doubt it. Quain's too much of a reverse snob, and in that particular instance wouldve been furious with the Sharen for attacking her during a natural disaster.

But assuming they did meet on the battlefield and fought it out by "accident", the logic still stands. Sarv had no reason to believe she would end up fighting Quain. Plus, unless she ran around poisoning her blade after every so many kills(in a big ass melee this is probably impossible even for Sarv's Jedi-flying ass), she wouldve had to get hella lucky that Quain just happened to be stabbed(hacked?) early enough on for it to be effective.

...and Quain was out fighting to buy herself some time regardless of how she was out there fighting, since she was losing yet had a big ass castle to hide in. I suppose you could argue that Sarv bested the Sarghress walls but that pretty much makes it brutally hard for her to retreat from the situation without taking devastating losses. A case could be made thats exactly what she did with First Landing but, she DID take heavy losses doing it and they were her walls in that instance so the inner fort was hers for a time. IF the Sargs had been hit that hard, I dont think Quill woulve been able to save them, or both Clans wouldve been so devastated that the Nidraa war wouldnt have needed to take place.


Moric wrote:I was basing my observations on the fact that Zala gave Sylphile poisoned weaponry, and my presumption of drow from D&D always using poison, always coloring my analysis.
Ah I see.

That said, I always thought that Quain'tana's poisoning from the last battle was Flower poison, not the normal kind.
Actually it sure seems like it was the poison given to Syph that Nir'naya had on her sword -once scratch did indeed kill. As far as that being something known to the Nidraa? Well, we dont really know if Nir'naya is Nidraa or simply another useful idiot but it matters little either way -Zala'ess IS one and they were both part of the Imperium. It makes perfect sense that anything Zala had access to, Snad & Nir'naya had likewise.

I suppose that the healers were just not great, and by the time she figured out there was a problem with making babies, her body had set pretty much beyond standard healing.
Not great? O.o Unless Quain was pregnant at the time of the duel, the amount & depth of damage Sarv wouldve had to do to get to her womb with that type of weapon means that who ever her doctor was, they were a fooking miracle worker simply because she lived. That she was full of all sorts of adhesions and/or missing pieces in order to pull that off is par for the course. Other than the Jaal, I dont think these guys have medicine at the molecular or even cellular level perfected since they pretty much all have nasty scars.
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