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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Ein'keos on Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:30 am

I think the problem with a culture pool is it takes up a whole lot of space and it's extremely time consuming to build one like you are describing. It's a food growing operation, but I think the reason you put on there is so that people can have access to water, no? I think perhaps a quicker solution (and quicker means we get to build other cool things, like buildings, and move people in faster) would be to just creat a small aquaduct and a central fountain. Fountains are decorative, relatively small, and easier to make than a culture pool. I copy paste an earlier design here:

Ein'keos wrote:Hmmm, well, we aren't going to be building all of the buildings, but having some in place will encourage the first pioneers to come. So perhaps, baring the possibility of settling the north eastern ruins but i suppose we could just do both, we could build a central market area and let the town grow around it. As below:

Image

A public, central square bordered by five large buildings that could serve as store front on the bottom levels and homes in the upper. The brown circle in the middle would be a large public fountain, like ours in Ther but bigger, where people could go to get their drinking and bathing water. Five roads, like the five points of our clan symbol, symbolically reminding everyone who built the district and who are the true masters of it. The points of the clan symbol on the ground might be a little too much, I just put them there for emphasis with the idea they'd be made out of stone. Temporary stalls could be set up throughout the square, and people would start building new structures off of the five streets established.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Tohya on Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:49 am

We can not block the trade route to the surface. So like it or not, we have to leave a clear path from Chel to the eastern Exit.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby BlackFulcrum on Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:43 am

Agreed a wide main road from Chel's main cavern to our overworld exit, is necessary, might be smart to let it pass directly by the market so new traders and travelers can see it when using the road, that way they might think "Hey a new place to buy/sell my wares"

Each time the traders went or came from the overworld they passed by Ther (at some distance) so it shouldn't be to hard to lay the new road so that it passes in front of the main gates, that will also show travelers the clan that holds dominion of this part of Chel, us.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby minalia on Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:05 am

Does anyone have a time table in how should we go in this long term project?
Should we wait at least 1-2 weeks before we allow the first settlers to come in our cavern and let them build their houses with their own people or let them rent our builders expertise in helping them build their houses for a good price that is affordable to them yet profitable to us?

How much time will it take before we start taxing those newcomers in lands? Do we wait a week or 2 just to let them settle in and get into a routine without scaring them right of the start? XD

And how much time could we allow to someone who is not paying their due just to give them a chance to pay their rent before we let the taxman *wee* go in their house and auction all their goods for the good of our clan? Hell should we make a TAXMAN rank(just kidding XD ) with the perks of being the most hated person in our cavern in the Chelians point of view?
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Bamawing on Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:11 am

Ein'keos wrote:I think the problem with a culture pool is it takes up a whole lot of space and it's extremely time consuming to build one like you are describing. It's a food growing operation, but I think the reason you put on there is so that people can have access to water, no?


No, actually. I want it so people have access to food. I love the fountain/layout idea and I think we should do it! I don't want these villagers fishing in our already-strained river. If they have their own place to fish, they'll stay the heck out (or at least that's the idea). This is also a money-making venture... we can charge the people to use our pool.

I gave the map another close look and now I see where Xe was coming from. Either we'll have to keep that bit open, or else we'll have to build a ramp from Ther to the mine. This ramp might be the best idea in terms of convenience... but it'll take a while for it to get done.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby BlackFulcrum on Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:44 am

minalia wrote:Does anyone have a time table in how should we go in this long term project?
Should we wait at least 1-2 weeks before we allow the first settlers to come in our cavern and let them build their houses with their own people or let them rent our builders expertise in helping them build their houses for a good price that is affordable to them yet profitable to us?

How much time will it take before we start taxing those newcomers in lands? Do we wait a week or 2 just to let them settle in and get into a routine without scaring them right of the start? XD

And how much time could we allow to someone who is not paying their due just to give them a chance to pay their rent before we let the taxman *wee* go in their house and auction all their goods for the good of our clan? Hell should we make a TAXMAN rank(just kidding XD ) with the perks of being the most hated person in our cavern in the Chelians point of view?


Time table is going to be longer then just one or two weeks, we've got to much things to finish up first, Dvara'ka battle and aftermath, the fortifications need to be finished fully to Pen's original designs, the walls and cliff smoothing are just one part, there's also still the improvement/rebuilding of the gates, the bastions near the gates, and the overlooks in various places.
After that we should concentrate on building basic infrastructure, like main roads first (mentioned those my earlier post), so that people don't build their houses on those paths, after that we can worry about housing.

As for building, well have been asked to build in Chel's main cavern, so I doubt we could really ban competition from building in our sub-cavern, remember in Chel, civilians own their own houses and shops, we can only tax the protection we provide, and as our Sharen guest explained, we don't own the land around Ther, we just hold influence over it, if they want to build it themselves, or someone else have to do it for them, there's really no way to stop them.
Of course we can offer to build it for them, or build the initial housing first ourselves before anyone comes over, of course we either have to sell that housing or give it away free, we can't be landlord and tax collector at the same time, no one is going to pay twice in Chel.

Tax is always collected by the Warriors, that's how every other clan does it, and often the whole thing is managed by a noble (Niede, the manager for Ariels lands, only will manage them till she's understands well enough, and is old enough to do it herself) so maybe keeping the books is something An'jhali has to do.
Also it might be smart to set a tax, and stipulate the rules/laws for living within our protection to new settlers before they build something, might clear out some problems from the get go (prevent people who could never pay in the first place to settle down)
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby minalia on Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:18 pm

Competition can be good but remember that letting the construction business from Chelian guilds inside our cavern be a good thing at the start. To let those private entrepreneurs have the share of the cake in the construction business will cut our profit margins by a lot. :[

We could help those private constructions firms in renting our golem tools, sell constructions ressources located in our lands like the crap load of rock we excavated from the smoothing operations led by the miners. By helping private enteprises settle in our cavern may also be a good thing if we are good clients to them they may give us discounts in ressources we cannot access at the moment. *bigsmile*

Maybe we should invest in some camping kits to provide at least a minimal housing for the settlers when they arrive. I highly doubt they will be happy of being kicked out of their ancestral grounds and homes from the Sharens once they arrive on our lands with next to nothing and be desperate. If we can provide those people with some basic needs and let them rebuild their homes with our help it should insure a certain amount of gratitude and loyalty to us. But we have to keep the charity act to a strict minimun as to make them know from the get go, we are going to help you learn how to survive out here..but do not think for a moment that we will be in a charitable mood for long.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Ein'keos on Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:57 pm

BlackFulcrum wrote:Tax is always collected by the Warriors, that's how every other clan does it, and often the whole thing is managed by a noble (Niede, the manager for Ariels lands, only will manage them till she's understands well enough, and is old enough to do it herself) so maybe keeping the books is something An'jhali has to do.
Also it might be smart to set a tax, and stipulate the rules/laws for living within our protection to new settlers before they build something, might clear out some problems from the get go (prevent people who could never pay in the first place to settle down)


Well, the managment by a noble thing doesn't really fit with the communist nature of the game. I mean, all our other ventures everyone plans and the money goes into a pot, so I don't think we have to go to any special measures. Agreed about laying down the rules though. I think everyone who wants to build should have to report to Duergar for a permit and a location so that we can control the urban planning and let the ditrict grow in an orderly, logical layout instead of a crazy shanty town where none of the streets make sense. Not really stepping on people's toes or restricting freedom as much as working towards the good of everyone through organization.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Finish on Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:51 pm

Bamawing wrote:I'm not sure why you want the route there... I intentionally made the pool large to cut "them durn foreigners" off from our river and Tiktiki pen. But if we want to keep that pathway open, all we have to do is not build the pool so big. Cheaper all the way around. (I do love bridges though... so I'm willing to compromise on that one.)

I have mental images of large basket-elevators going up and down the cliff. But I think that's just me being silly.


Well the Tiktiki pen is no longer a issue since the Tiktikki run around in Ther freely and actualy like the place. :) But we should make sure
people stay away from the culture pool and the storage house - until we move them into Ther like Xenon suggested. :)


Also I disagree that a low road would be the best solution. Even without the big culture pool from the commoners we would have to build two bridges traders with
heavy wagons and mounts could use - so the have to be strong and wide. Plus the road would be very close to our pools and the storage house. The best thing
would be a straight path and not a windy road. So I believe if we make a ramp to Ther and another ramp to the cliff with the surface exit it would be the best.
And we can use the rock for the road. :)

Futhermore I hope that the Sharen will not let us alone in this task. Since we are a new Clan it's no shame to ask them some basic questions about land owing.
Like what kind of people we have to expect ,if they build there own houses or perfer to rent them, how the taxing system works and so on...
After all the Sharen should know best since they make the rules. :D We just have to make sure we only obey the rules the can enforces and not the rules
nobody actualy caras about. ;)
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby BlackFulcrum on Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:23 pm

minalia wrote:Competition can be good but remember that letting the construction business from Chelian guilds inside our cavern be a good thing at the start. To let those private entrepreneurs have the share of the cake in the construction business will cut our profit margins by a lot. :[

We could help those private constructions firms in renting our golem tools, sell constructions ressources located in our lands like the crap load of rock we excavated from the smoothing operations led by the miners. By helping private enteprises settle in our cavern may also be a good thing if we are good clients to them they may give us discounts in ressources we cannot access at the moment. *bigsmile*

Maybe we should invest in some camping kits to provide at least a minimal housing for the settlers when they arrive. I highly doubt they will be happy of being kicked out of their ancestral grounds and homes from the Sharens once they arrive on our lands with next to nothing and be desperate. If we can provide those people with some basic needs and let them rebuild their homes with our help it should insure a certain amount of gratitude and loyalty to us. But we have to keep the charity act to a strict minimun as to make them know from the get go, we are going to help you learn how to survive out here..but do not think for a moment that we will be in a charitable mood for long.

The competition is necessary, our builders main goals will always be clan related projects, those will always be more important then side projects that bring in some ada, if we for some reason have a weeks long project, like our current fortifications project, in the future, and people still are coming in to have their houses built they will have to wait for a long time till our builders are done with their clan project, they might decide to leave, it's better to allow a competing firm to come in and build the housing, that will make us look good as well in two ways, we're not obstructing anyone coming to live here, and we're inviting outside guilds to work in our area.

I am definitely in favor of letting private enterprise settle here, it will create jobs for locals, and allow create healthy competition for the services we can provide, and also like the builders, allow us to always concentrate our efforts on the clan itself first.

We don't know, how, and who the Sharen send to us get us started, some people think it's going to be the poor and the homeless, others think the Sharen are going to displace people from an area of Chel (perhaps Sarghress lands), I wouldn't be to hasty on this.
Also never ever expect loyalty from the civilians, as indicated, infighting between the greater clans, and rise and fall of lesser clans, makes control of area's switch often (at least within a Drows long lifespan), they just pay the clan who holds controls, and protects that area the best, most civilians want to stay out of clan business, don't expect loyalty, just acceptance.

Ein'keos wrote:Well, the managment by a noble thing doesn't really fit with the communist nature of the game. I mean, all our other ventures everyone plans and the money goes into a pot, so I don't think we have to go to any special measures. Agreed about laying down the rules though. I think everyone who wants to build should have to report to Duergar for a permit and a location so that we can control the urban planning and let the ditrict grow in an orderly, logical layout instead of a crazy shanty town where none of the streets make sense. Not really stepping on people's toes or restricting freedom as much as working towards the good of everyone through organization.


I don't know how big a job management would be, besides keeping track of who payed, and who didn't pay their tax, maybe making sure some general commodities like water and such are available, but after that everything gets delegated to other ranks, warrior for tax collection and eviction, and building related stuff to the builders, so I don't know if it's rank worthy material, etc.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Tohya on Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:27 am

As far as I know, there is no rule against us building an apartment block and renting rooms out. In fact, building a part of the market and then renting spaces out in it cheaply is one way we could try help get started. Cheap housing and market stalls and enough room to build your own place if you can afford to do so.


Also, I'm pretty sure there is no way we could claim that the river and what is in it belongs to us and get away with it. The river is part of the cavern and until we are strong enoughto assert a claim over the entire cavern, the river isn't ours.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Wan'drille on Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:40 am

Agreed.
We have to acknowledge the lesson Kern gave us: the cavern is not ours, and we can't avoid Chel to grow in it.
Unless our culture pool really fastens the process of fishing, then we can't expect commoners to pay to have access to it: they will use the river directly. Some entreprenant commoners with ada in pocket could even start a business out of it.

As Black Fulcrum stated, we have to be competitive. Not only our builders, but also the services we offer.
If we make appartments, we could rent them for a very decent price, a little lower than the usual price. As for a market place, cheap stands along with our owns.

As I see it, market, appartment and other services are optional incomes, so we can allow us to set them cheap, as the protection tax will be our principal revenue.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby BlackFulcrum on Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:37 am

Tohya wrote:Also, I'm pretty sure there is no way we could claim that the river and what is in it belongs to us and get away with it. The river is part of the cavern and until we are strong enoughto assert a claim over the entire cavern, the river isn't ours.


Wan'drille wrote:Agreed.
We have to acknowledge the lesson Kern gave us: the cavern is not ours, and we can't avoid Chel to grow in it.
Unless our culture pool really fastens the process of fishing, then we can't expect commoners to pay to have access to it: they will use the river directly. Some entreprenant commoners with ada in pocket could even start a business out of it.


Indeed, but we do hold influence, people who want to start living off the river can be encouraged to use culture pools like ours (we could make build them) lest they fish the river dry, of course if they don't want to we can't stop them either.

On a totally different note, I just read trough this topic again, and I've seen several posts in it about the little room available in the cavern, which seems mostly based on this zone of influence map, I would like to remind people that many features in that map are not to scale, the traders house shown as big as half of Ther, while it's not even as large as our conference hall, the storage shack at the river, and the culture pools the same, they are show far bigger then they are, and there is far more room between that location and Ther then shown on the map.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Bamawing on Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:58 pm

@Fulcrum: Good point on scale.

Scale nonwithstanding, here's my revised map. I don't know which road we'll want... we may wind up with both of them. And I don't think I specifically mentioned it, but I plan on having Eat At Kalyantera's and the Nurses Station in the "original buildings."

Image
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Finish on Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:48 pm

I perfer the High Road but I suggest some changes. :)

First of all the road should go from Chel to the surface exit. Then I think we don't need paths to the area with the glowing bugs and the rock field - it's not like
we have to go there were often.

On the other side we should conect the mine with the road. And finaly the road should lead to the stairs of our main entrance. :)

Here's my suggestion:
Image

The black line is the road
The grey lines are ramps
The brown-greenish lines are possible defense lines (walls, towers and such stuff)
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