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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby blackshade10 on Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:52 pm

Whizzard wrote:They would be self-sufficient, only us would be the ones that make them self-sufficient, it's a gain-gain situation. And no, they won't become clan members as they are just workers. We don't pay to our members as what clan gains is also gained by members. Clan provides everything to it's members for free and everyone (except faceless, ooh those lazy bastards!) contribute to the clan.



Uh... if we help them, they aren't self-sufficient. We are a government, so if we give them a job, they become reliant and less useful. Unlike others who make business on their own and can be trusted to do a good job. Just giving someone a job won't make them self-sufficient. And seeing as we don't have the money NOW to pay them, I don't see people wanting to work for a clan who has a violent reputation who promises to pay them later.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Finish on Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:57 pm

We must be careful if we make gates. Remember what happend the last time after we tried to build a wall. I think we should ask the Sharen first before making any gates on the way to Chel.

Another thing would be how this affects the wildlife of the cavern.I guess we need to kill all Kiri'su - at least all the big ones just to make sure they don't come after our commoners - I'll miss
the loveable acid-huggers. :D
And then we have to see how this will affect the Tiktikki. I guess they could adopt easily to the city and would help keep it clean of trash - unless people eat them all.

The biggest problem of course would the river. The commoner would start fishing this could affect our own resources or make the river dry in the worst case. We should watch out
and make sure this doesn't happens.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Whizzard on Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:01 pm

I've been thinking and you are right, 10shadesofblack, they'd be the members of the clan in a roundabout way but not even nearly as valuable as it's true members. Just like Dva'raka mercs, they are Dva'raka but none of them wear the Dva'raka name as they are just hired goons.

And we are not helping them, we are just giving them a job that we don't want/don't have time to do.

And are police officers, firefighters and medics all reliant and less-useful because they work for the government?

Besides, did I say we should do it immediately? No I was talking about doing something useful with these people when they are all settled in and we have resources to pull it off nicely.

Finish wrote:Another thing would be how this affects the wildlife of the cavern.I guess we need to kill all Kiri'su - at least all the big ones just to make sure they don't come after our commoners - I'll miss
the loveable acid-huggers. :D


I thought Kirisu aren't dangerous at all. *eek*
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby blackshade10 on Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:10 pm

You example did not least an unwanted job. What job do we need done that is not done by our own clansmen? And yes, in a roundabout way, they would be seen as clan members.

And are police officers, firefighters and medics all reliant and less-useful because they work for the government?


I won't argue politics as this is not the place, but everything you listed we already do ourselves with ranks. ((Warriors and healers, with a lack of firefighters for very, very obvious reasons))

And we shouldn't allow people to settle, at least not for long, if they prove to be parasites off the land.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Ein'keos on Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:13 pm

blackshade10 wrote:
Whizzard wrote:They would be self-sufficient, only us would be the ones that make them self-sufficient, it's a gain-gain situation. And no, they won't become clan members as they are just workers. We don't pay to our members as what clan gains is also gained by members. Clan provides everything to it's members for free and everyone (except faceless, ooh those lazy bastards!) contribute to the clan.



Uh... if we help them, they aren't self-sufficient. We are a government, so if we give them a job, they become reliant and less useful. Unlike others who make business on their own and can be trusted to do a good job. Just giving someone a job won't make them self-sufficient. And seeing as we don't have the money NOW to pay them, I don't see people wanting to work for a clan who has a violent reputation who promises to pay them later.


Uh, I think you're a little to optimistic about our prospective residents. We probably won't get too many people who are already productive and established because they'll already be settled in somewhere and won't ahve a reason to want to move to some random cavern. Refugees are likely what we will get, and otherwise there would be no challenge in this. I'm also not proposing a salary, more like the % of profits already detailed by Kern in the comic as the way to hire people for a task. Once these pioneers are settled in the cavern with some money, from the jobs we provide, merchants will start coming to get their business, and then more profitable, self-sufficient people follow them. But it's not likely highly skilled trades people are just going to move into some tiny cavern on the edge of town when there isn't anything there yet. Just because it isn't awesome right off the bat doesn't mean it's not worth persuing. What good thing have we ever gotten in this game without having to build towards with hard work?
Last edited by Ein'keos on Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby blackshade10 on Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:15 pm

Ein'keos wrote:
blackshade10 wrote:
Whizzard wrote:They would be self-sufficient, only us would be the ones that make them self-sufficient, it's a gain-gain situation. And no, they won't become clan members as they are just workers. We don't pay to our members as what clan gains is also gained by members. Clan provides everything to it's members for free and everyone (except faceless, ooh those lazy bastards!) contribute to the clan.



Uh... if we help them, they aren't self-sufficient. We are a government, so if we give them a job, they become reliant and less useful. Unlike others who make business on their own and can be trusted to do a good job. Just giving someone a job won't make them self-sufficient. And seeing as we don't have the money NOW to pay them, I don't see people wanting to work for a clan who has a violent reputation who promises to pay them later.


Uh, I think you're a little to optimistic about our prospective residents. We probably won't get too many people who are already productive and established because they'll already be settled in somewhere and won't ahve a reason to want to move to some random cavern. Refugees are likely what we will get, and otherwise there would be no challenge in this. I'm also not proposing a salary, more like the % of profits already detailed by Kern in the comic as the way to hire people for a task. Once these pioneers are settled in the cavern with some money, from the jobs we provide, merchants will start coming to get their business, and then more profitable, self-sufficient people follow them. But it's not likely highly skilled trades people are just going to move into some tiny cavern on the edge of town when there isn't anything there yet.



Please reread my earlier statement on shooing away parasites/thieves/those who don't pay taxes.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Ein'keos on Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:20 pm

[quote="blackshade10] Please reread my earlier statement on shooing away parasites/thieves/those who don't pay taxes.[/quote]

You completely don't understand my post. The 'parasites' are what we're going to get. We turn them into productive people or we aren't going to get the good residents.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby blackshade10 on Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:22 pm

Ein'keos wrote:[quote="blackshade10] Please reread my earlier statement on shooing away parasites/thieves/those who don't pay taxes.[/quote]

You completely don't understand my post. The 'parasites' are what we're going to get. We turn them into productive people or we aren't going to get the good residents.[/quote]


But they aren't ALL we are going to get. People, a decent number good, are going to leave Chel for this more open space and new business opportunity. Parasites only exist where they can actually BE parasites. We keep things from being stolen, like our food, with heavy security, and they will not want to get near a place they can't steal things.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Ein'keos on Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:05 am

I'm just saying, unemployed residents coul be very useful to us. Getting NPC's, for example, to harvest our food would be a godsend in many ways. And all we'd have to do is expand the fields a little and watch out more vigilantly for possible thieves. Yes, I agree that if we don't have enough jobs for unemployed people we should chase off the ones we can't employ. And I don't think being an employee of a clan makes you a clan member or that you would be considered one in a clan war, or at least not according to the Queen's law. Queen's law came into effect because everyone had some clan affiliation so making civilians targets was getting to be a problem. So only clan members and hired combatants are supposed to be targets.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Catriana on Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:13 am

You guys are getting too micro with this. Trying to delve into the potential settlement's economy and take things piece by piece (because it would eventually happen once they settle and begin to open their own stores) is pointless, that's not what we're supposed to be doing.

Furthermore, if they can't pay taxes, they can't settle. The offer was for us to allow people to come and stay and we collect the taxes from them. Obviously, this does not apply to those completely and utterly broke.

Trying to get NPC's to work for us isn't going to work, if anything, we would go to them to see if they want/need any extra protection and we would acquire profits from our extra services. Similar to when we go out in town to look for jobs. The only difference is that we would also be taxing them to live there, which would include a profit of what they make should they begin a business. I'm assuming that would be considered 'included' when shops become established and will not be listed by individual means.

Unemployed people don't need to live in our area. That's not the point of having it built. She stated that these people would come in and build, meaning they must already have money. Stragglers we get rid of, that's why we police the area for them, to keep the unemployed and beggers out.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Kitab Al'Ibar on Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:18 am

I'd just like to point out that people are moving too far ahead. Eventually we may be able to use them in these functions, perhaps in the role of NPC workers - see the 'Dependants' system that is a future plan of Kerns, but for now, there are other things to consider.

So, I would say start with what we need to do to prepare our cavern and ourselves for this, given that settling will take time.

1. Ther'avare: Our walls should be finished, the fortress proper should be separate from the settling endeavour.

2. Security of food: River, Culture Pool, Mushroom Farms etc. Can these be brought into Ther'avare or made secure? Obviously the river is the greatest challenge.

3. The Mine: We need a way to ensure the safety of this, either closing it every night again or moving the watchtower closer to the mine as the Sharen have raised objections to it.

4. Eastern Exit: Toll Booth, do we want to secure this exit, even if don't toll it, we should lay some form of claim to it.

5: Local flora and fauna: Tik'tikki and Kir'isu, the latter being more of a problem. We will also want to collect the tree.

Anything else? Those are the major areas I can think of.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Finish on Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:56 am

Kitab Al'Ibar wrote:
So, I would say start with what we need to do to prepare our cavern and ourselves for this, given that settling will take time.

1. Ther'avare: Our walls should be finished, the fortress proper should be separate from the settling endeavour.

2. Security of food: River, Culture Pool, Mushroom Farms etc. Can these be brought into Ther'avare or made secure? Obviously the river is the greatest challenge.

3. The Mine: We need a way to ensure the safety of this, either closing it every night again or moving the watchtower closer to the mine as the Sharen have raised objections to it.

4. Eastern Exit: Toll Booth, do we want to secure this exit, even if don't toll it, we should lay some form of claim to it.

5: Local flora and fauna: Tik'tikki and Kir'isu, the latter being more of a problem. We will also want to collect the tree.

Anything else? Those are the major areas I can think of.


1. I agree we have to make sure that not every wannabe assassin could use the nearby settlements to sneak into Ther. So perhaps we should only allow people to settle western of Ther
with the cliff between us and the commoners. Perhaps one day there will not enough space and we have to allow people to move closer to Ther but that's a matter for the far away future.

2. If the cliff will be the border between the settlement and Ther the culture pools would be save as well as the mushroom farms. We just clarify it as Clan land and place some guard
there. I doubt that there will be no thieves but we can reduce the number of successful attempts. And about the river, maybe we can dig a channel who leads to Ther.

3. I see no problem with the mine. Just place some guard at the entrance and build a watch tower. If some other Clan tries to attack the mine the could send a signal flare to Ther to alarm the rest
of us.

4. I agree we should build a post Ther to watch who enters and leave the cavern. One Dvaraka surprise attack was enough. :D Also I think we should only tax Traders who don't want to sell there goods
at the future settlement our Ther'Avar.

5. The Tiktikki aren't a problem. They could adopt to the city and would eat some of the waste. As long as people don't eat them. The Kiri'su could be a problem. But maybe it would be enough to kill only the big ones. All the small hand-sized ones are more a nuisance than a real threath. Of course we would lose our main sources for leather. But perhaps there are more Kiri'su hive in the eastern caverns.
And I agree it's a good idea to collect the dead tree.

And speaking about trees: Perhaps we should try to revive our relations with the Nal in some way. The could maybe sell us some artifical light who would allow plants to grew.
Every settlement looks better with trees. (Ok a very long-time goal).
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby BlackFulcrum on Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:52 am

Okay here is how I see it, our friendly Sharen mentioned that we should not give up, but should reconsider the tower at the entrance, that means clearing the rubble and not rebuilding it, I've seen a lot of talk that still considers our cave separate from Chel, and did I even read that right, building a gate there?
The Chellians, such the Sharen, see it as part of Chel, that tower basically represented a border we created, one that should not be there.

That leads into the second point, people still treat this cave as "ours", while it is not, from what I've understand Chellian landownership is not as simple a staking a claim, claims of ownership, real actual ownership comes down to the areas you control, for us that's the Fortress, the Mine, the Farms, and the exit to the overworld, other clans have similar things, anything outside those area's is zone of influence rather then actual ownership.
I'll quote a bit from the explanation Niede, the Scholar that manages Ariels lands, gave her when she asked if those lands were hers:
"Not entirely.
People have their own businesses and homes but they are under our clan's protection, and thus must provide goods to the clan upon request.
Taxes are applied on Trades.
This goes to fund the clan mostly, but you get part of it as manager of the lands.
This pays for your food, clothes, weapons, guards, and so on.
The clan needs lands and people to increase it's strength"

Basically the people own their own homes and businesses, and are taxed (either in ada or goods) for the protection the clan provides, we can not tax them for just putting their home down, and saying, our domain, you pay tax, and not do anything further.
So I'm just making that clear, we don't own the actual land, the Sharen said it, we can not stake a claim that big, but our presence creates a zone of influence, and if we protect that zone, we can tax the civilians living in that zone for that protection.

So then comes the question on how much can we filter in and out people we don't want, that's hard to say, setting the tax is one, if they can't pay it, we can kick them out of the zone of influence, or kill them, what ever the standard in Chel is, beyond that, it's going to be hard until they do something wrong, we can set the rules for what's wrong in our area, within reason of course, like No demon summoning, no stealing, no gambling, etc.

I don't know if we can collect rent as well if we build the housing ourselves, but collecting both rent and taxes seems a bit much, plus anyone who builds his own house in the area would only have to pay taxes, seems a bit unfair, I'd rather we build free housing to keep control of the city planning, rather then do it just to collect rent.
Also remember, like us building in the rest of Chel, we could see builders from other parts competing with ours for civilian housing, and I don't think we can claim sole right to build there.

Also I don't think the housing should be far from Ther (the fortress), rather nearby actually, it makes it easier to patrol, and as the housing expands over time, the fortress will the center of the area, not apart from it.

I think the most important things:
  • Finish the fortress - we don't want any civilians wandering in and out of it.
  • Clear the tower rubble, don't rebuild it, thus integrating the Ther cavern into Chel proper, we are a part of it, not separate from it, the people living with us still need to feel like they are part of Chel.
  • Build a decent roads.
    • From Chel's main cavern to the overworld exit passing in front of our fortress
    • From the fortress to the riverside farms
    • From the fortress to the mine
    It makes it easier to transport goods along them, and prevents builders other then our own, to build houses in our direct transport routes.
  • Build a guard post at the eastern/overworld exit, not a tollbooth, I'd rather keep it free, it will increase the traffic trough it, which combined with our own market, might be profitable.
  • Build a market place, personally I'd prefer this across from Ther's main gate, on the opposite side the road that leas from Chel's main cavern to the overworld gate that I mentioned earlier, this keeps the main gate free of people, while it is still very close to us.
  • Build the initial housing near our fortress ourselves, to stay in control of city planning.
That's pretty much what we need, before we start business.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Ein'keos on Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:57 am

The North Eastern Ruins, once excavated, might make a good town for people to settle in. Buildings already there, just needing a little refurbishing. Guards there could also keep an eye on the eastern gate.

Kitab Al'Ibar wrote:I
2. Security of food: River, Culture Pool, Mushroom Farms etc. Can these be brought into Ther'avare or made secure? Obviously the river is the greatest challenge.


This is the most difficult part of the plan because any road from Chel to the eastern exit will necessarilly pass through our fields due to the topography of the cavern.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Ascaladar on Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:22 am

Allowing independant settlers around Ther'avare is an interesting offer, but we should not try to overstretch ourselfs with this.

Rather we should allow a number of civilians to settle areas close to the fortress and other then that, concentrate on keeping the roads into the cavern open. I do not think that we should force people to swear allegiance to our clan, but rather encourage them. For example they can live and work free and will only get slightly taxed but if they want to set up a business, or want to build a permanent residence, then they need our approval.

There are also challenges coming with this, because we would have to act a bit like a government to the civilians and oversee everything. Otherwise we will have people stealing food, illegal mining, contaminating the river, begging and thieving.

Keeping watch over this is NOT a warrior job. There is a very important difference between a police force and an army. Keeping the peace requires a lot more then just punishing everyone who gets in our way, otherwise we only appear as bullies and create more problems then we solve.

So we would need people who:
- Collect taxes
- decide where the civilians can settle and make sure that buildings meet the minimum standards
- handle disputes between civilians
- keep the peace
- keep the area clean of garbage

On a long term effect it would be nice to have everything but the first two things handled by the civilians themselves, but that will not be possible until we find people who are suitable for the job, but that would not be possible at the beginning. Basically we would have to create a town from scratch and will have to do this carefully.
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