[Obsidian Agent]

Alright, with the way Valla's shaping up, she's taken a few lessons from the Snadhya'rune School of Scumbaggery. However, the jury is still out (at least for me) if she's earned Complete Monster status, like Snadhya and Sene'kha.

A Complete Monster is defined as the following:

1. The character is truly heinous by the standards of the story, which makes no attempt to portray the character in a positive way.

2. The character's terribleness is played seriously at all times, evoking fear, revulsion, and hatred from the other characters in the story.

3. They are completely devoid of altruistic qualities. They show no regret for their crimes.


Now, DT forum members, discuss why you think Valla is a Complete Monster or why you think she isn't one in this thread. I'm not making either claim, I'm just providing an arena for the verbal slugfest. *grabs popcorn*

Now, MAKE YOUR CASE!!!

[partner555]

She meets number 2 and 3. She has shown no regret and many other characters have certainly begun getting second thoughts after seeing what she was willing to do.

Number 1 however, is more tricky. While the story doesn't attempt to cast Valla in a positive light, by the standards of the story, she would probably be considered more divisive by the Kyorls rather than outright monstrous. After all, she DOES have the support of many of the Kyorls, though the case can be made that many of the Kyorls that support her are themselves monsters.

[Disestablish]

She made Vara'nin cry.
That is all.

[SFI]

I hold back on judgement, because I dunno if you people noticed, but we have only seen Valla for like... ten pages? Granted, what she did wasn't nice or anything, but sheesh, don't judge so quickly.

[partner555]

I hold back on judgement, because I dunno if you people noticed, but we have only seen Valla for like... ten pages? Granted, what she did wasn't nice or anything, but sheesh, don't judge so quickly.

I shall exercise my right to be a judgemental bastard.

[is-ness]

3. They are completely devoid of altruistic qualities. They show no regret for their crimes.

Oh come now, Snad isn't a complete monster--she's plenty altruistic. She made sure her guests were given the proper safety gear for viewing the entertainment she provided, buys Mel pretty clothing, and sees to it that those she mind-fucks receive excellent medical care.

Number 1 however, is more tricky. While the story doesn't attempt to cast Valla in a positive light, by the standards of the story, she would probably be considered more divisive by the Kyorls rather than outright monstrous. After all, she DOES have the support of many of the Kyorls, though the case can be made that many of the Kyorls that support her are themselves monsters.

Seeing as the only other time we've seen a tower dropped was in the Longest Wait (and whether or not that particular example is canon is up for debate), and the belds were only going to drop one of theirs as a last resort, I'd say Vala's actions are pretty heineous by standards of the story.

[Metzger]

She made Vara'nin cry.
That is all.

I concur

[Gunbird]

I think Valla is more of a puppet of the light-elves then a puppet master.

Some of the Judicators are the true monsters of that clan.

[Pariel]

I find her non-guilty on account of her impressive assets. Also Snadhya'runes is far more benevolent than anyone.

[Doom Chinchilla]

I suspect that Valla is convinced that she's doing what's best for her clan and race and sees her own actions as morally correct. Also, a large portion of the Kyorl'Solenurn probably fully supports her. I think she's not a real sociopathic monster, she just has a very limited perspective and a radical "black and white" vision of the world.

[Ash'arion]

I suspect that Valla is convinced that she's doing what's best for her clan and race and sees her own actions as morally correct. Also, a large portion of the Kyorl'Solenurn probably fully supports her. I think she's not a real sociopathic monster, she just has a very limited perspective and a radical "black and white" vision of the world.

Snads is also doing what she believes to be morally correct. So were the Nazis, the Stalinists, the Maoists, and all the other fascists. So do terrorists, crusaders, and all other religiously-driven killers. Very few people have ever existed who do things that they believe are evil, and those are typically moral nihilists. What they believe is not relevant to the harm they cause.

Also, the largest portion of the Kyorl'Solenurn fully support authority because they've been indoctrinated from childhood to do so, just like the majority of members of any cult or religion of sufficient size and age. They don't care who the actual Holy Mother and Judicators are, as long as all the necessary boxes regarding their ascension have been checked. Those are not people to the clan, they are roles representing the highest positions of authority and that's what makes them important. Although, in the Kyorls' defense, embracing a religion is a lot more understandable when you can fucking see the demons and what they do to people. They do also have the best means available of fighting said demons, even if it's not what they teach their children it is.

That said, when your commands are of the kind that even religious fanatics with legitimate demons to fear interpret as taking things too far, you have long since passed the point where you should have stopped. Especially if you were the one who indoctrinated a large portion of their population.