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On the Kyorl's empathy.

On the Kyorl's empathy.

Postby Obyren » Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:00 pm

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18337

Kern wrote:Some readers were speculating that the whole bloody dinner was a vision Chirinide had, that none of it truly happened. Turn up Chirinide's perspective this whole time was from Kalki's own eyes. She thus saw herself stab and then cut appart the very person she meant to protect. And now, she see herself hunt... well herself. It's bound to be disorienting. That's why some people with her abillity end up going insane while many others , such as the inquisitors, end up covering their eyes.

Again more notes on this because it keep coming up. Chirinide power is not "holy power". It's empathy, like Faen, but a different branch. It make her feel, see, smell, ear as if she's someone else. She sees the intents of that person as well. Planning, day dreaming or just plain dreams. Someone intents can predict the future, or it can be misleading. We know Ariel didn't die, but for all Kalki cared, she left someone to die when leaving the dinner room.


So, we now know that Chiri can't actually see the future.

Going from Kern's post, I'm sure that Chiri going on about Ariel being the daughter of the holy eye (assuming that still happened) wasn't tied to Chiri seeing a future that had Ariel doing something really important. Here's an earlier post:

AnoP wrote:Shimi knew that Ariel was the daughter of the holy eye . (that is Zhor , a spider) Ergo if she is able to snoop in on the Sarghress affairs sufficiently to know that particular fact , it also makes sense that she would be able to snoop in on the affairs sufficiently enough to know that Ariel is declared heir , and that she has had numerous negative interactions with Vloz Sharen and tainted .
Assuming that the heir to one of the most powerful clans in the city , who happens to have had bad experiences with tainted , is potentially important in the war against the Vloz and Sharen (the buildup for the Sarghress vs the Sharen had been happening for ~ hundreds of years) , and also for your own clans continuing existence going forward (remember the Sarghress do not not like the Kyorls threatening to murder their tainted members , and take in many people the Kyorl would kill) , is an extremely basic step in logic to make . A good impression made by Chiri might have safeguarded the Kyorls from various existential threats , had they not later decided to attack the Sarghress and murder Chiris mother .


And here's a post that deals with Shimi'lande's assassination:

AnoP wrote:Well she may have only been able to pick up on the plot relatively late , and so was caught in a bind she couldn't escape .
Also it was implied that the judicators were the ones whom organised it in the first place . So forestalling her death indefinitely would need to have involved unmasking them to the rest of the clan , which would have torn the clan apart . (which it did)
Shimi was aware , in this scenario , that she was going to die in the long run , violently . Whilst I question that she was absolutely unable to continue a little while longer , she was eventually going to die if she was unwilling to name the judicators .


Although, there is this post:

Medrex wrote:No that's still in there. Unless it gets changed Chiri's dream/vision of the future is still canon since there's no reason for her to release Kyo and bring her and Tir'ade along to deal with the demons otherwise. Said chapter is a decade old at this point though so who knows.


So, what do we make of that?
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Re: On the Kyorl's empathy.

Postby Dalvyserran » Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:03 pm

It's called prescience, not empathy :P

I was under the impression that all of the seers experienced Shimi'lande's death together, in real time. Chiri experiencing it as a masked Vloz'ress looking like Kiel only furthers the notion that prescience not accurate, and are colored by the user's own experience. Shimi's vision for Chiri's journey sounded more like her own inferences mixed with a vague vision.

Shimi'lande giving a cryptic code in that vision tells me that Shimi experienced the same 'interference' that the Vala had, and knowing this, gave a message only Chiri out of all the seers would understand.

So prescience does not predict the future as kern explained in his post. It only gives a possibility for what may occur, and when that happens, what the user sees is what's in their mind. The other part of prescience is seeing what another fae sees and feels (empathy part here) RIGHT AT THAT MOMENT (and apparently has a long range because chiri could see dying fae from all the way in Nagyesced)
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Re: On the Kyorl's empathy.

Postby Tsuris » Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:12 pm

There was also an instance when she felt someone's past, when the light elf woman was killed on the surface by the dogs and she saw her and the male she was with in the cell together but through the eyes of the dead woman, so it certainly seems Chiri can see the past as well as in real time, maybe future-sight comes with more experience?
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Re: On the Kyorl's empathy.

Postby Disestablish » Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:31 pm

Future-sight WOULD not be empathy.
It would be seeing events that impossibly have not happened nor been experienced, meaning Chiri's empathy could not react to it.
As Kern said, nothing the Kyorl do or delude themselves into thinking makes what they refer to seeing the future in any way.
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Re: On the Kyorl's empathy.

Postby Obyren » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:06 pm

Tsuris wrote:There was also an instance when she felt someone's past, when the light elf woman was killed on the surface by the dogs and she saw her and the male she was with in the cell together but through the eyes of the dead woman, so it certainly seems Chiri can see the past as well as in real time, maybe future-sight comes with more experience?


I'm sure that was Chiri seeing somebody else's memories.
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Re: On the Kyorl's empathy.

Postby Tsuris » Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:57 pm

Obyren wrote:
Tsuris wrote:There was also an instance when she felt someone's past, when the light elf woman was killed on the surface by the dogs and she saw her and the male she was with in the cell together but through the eyes of the dead woman, so it certainly seems Chiri can see the past as well as in real time, maybe future-sight comes with more experience?


I'm sure that was Chiri seeing somebody else's memories.

Oh I hadn't thought of that, that's a good point, although I guess she was seeing the memories of a dead person so I wonder how that worked
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Re: On the Kyorl's empathy.

Postby Jiharn » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:18 pm

Dalvyserran wrote:I was under the impression that all of the seers experienced Shimi'lande's death together, in real time. Chiri experiencing it as a masked Vloz'ress looking like Kiel only furthers the notion that prescience not accurate, and are colored by the user's own experience. Shimi's vision for Chiri's journey sounded more like her own inferences mixed with a vague vision.


I thought Chiri was experiencing as if she were Shimi, and saw someone else as the masked Vloz? And how does thinking it looked like Kiel necessarily further the notion that the prescience was inaccurate? Someone else even referred to it (obliquely) as being Kiel before Chiri even told anyone what she had seen, and none of the other seers who had the vision gainsaid that idea. It would be possible for everyone to have accurately seen a good disguise.

I'm pretty sure you're right about it having been experienced in real time, though, since it happened the morning before she did that practice and got some food with Shan, which would have been sufficient and appropriate time to discover then clean up the body.

I do still wonder what accounts for the issue referenced by Medrex. Even though it's old, it's still there in the story. And we can only go by what the story is, not by what we want the story to be.
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Re: On the Kyorl's empathy.

Postby AnoP » Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:11 am

Visions ;
Chapter 10
Chapter 7
Chapter 8 (discussed)
Chapter 11
Chapter 12
Chapter 14
Chapter 15
Chapter 15
Chapter 20
Chapter 22 (describes inverse distance effect of them)
Chapter 22
Chapter 29
Chapter 29
Chapter 29 (visions blocked off by another)
Chapter 29
Chapter 42
Chapter 42 (Cas also compares it to his empathy)
Chapter 43
Chapter 43 (description of what she saw)
Chapter 43

All of these seem to be things which occur concurrently with the event , or concurrently with what someone is planning to do . Only the one in chapter 10 looks vaguely like predicting the future or are from no ones particular perspective . (unless it's a demon) It also looks like a dream , and is the only one which looks inaccurate to what was going on at the time (with Tirade and the demon eyes) . She might have been looking into Yaeminra daydreaming .
So it's either an early installment where they hadn't worked out what exactly empathy was going to be and look like , or it's Chiris vision getting mixed together with a dream , and hence making no sense , and looking really weird .
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Re: On the Kyorl's empathy.

Postby Catriana » Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:22 am

I had been writing something up on this so I'm just gonna copypasta:

Chiri has been shown to be able to 'see' past events right? But take into consideration what happened prior to that vision. I think Chiri was reliving the light elf's memory, with her being Aki because that's where his emotions were being poured into.

Ok, so then the forest scene. The forest is alive and that meant it had malicious intent. Chiri picked up on that. And again here, she picks up on someone's fear, but not just that, that person's emotions puts her in their place in her mind.

Chiri doesn't just sense people's emotions, she projects them, be that in real time or whatever that person is plotting in their head. But it seems to be specific. Unlike Faen's empathy where she can pick up on everything, Chiri seems to pick up on strong emotions. That's probably why she kept seeing Shimi'lande's death for days, because Shimi was likely picking up on her killer's intentions and was afraid. From what I could tell, it didn't seem like she wanted to die, she had simply accepted it.

Kalki is a freaking psycho, so it makes sense that Chiri would pick up on her emotions and project like that. And by project I mean like...let's say she plucks the images from the person's mind and incorporates it into her own. It's not always accurate because it's not always a memory, sometimes she takes things from people's imaginations (intent/desire) and can see that. I actually find that to be a very frightening ability. Chiri doesn't just sense your emotions, she can literally see your daydreams and live them as if they were her own.

That's the conclusion I've come to, anyway.
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