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semi-Silly Question

Re: semi-Silly Question

Postby Smokehammer » Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:20 am

Ah guys? Drowtales drow stand somewhere in the 7 to 9 foot tall range. D&D drow are like 5 feet and DOWN. Just something to consider, because Im pretty sure D&D drow would be regarded as hairless ferals by DTs drow by height difference alone. *wee*

But barring that, they actually have divine magic and real demons on their side.
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Re: semi-Silly Question

Postby Metzger » Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:59 pm

more points for DnD drows then, due to lack of height, magical skills and (possibly) no visible Aura they would be capable of launching deadly surprise attacks...that would quickly dissolve due to bickering and backstabbing...
and btw
pants-on-head retarded with the chaotic evilness
my new favourite description of the Chaotics
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Re: semi-Silly Question

Postby Doom Chinchilla » Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:46 pm

Metzger wrote:more points for DnD drows then, due to lack of height, magical skills and (possibly) no visible Aura they would be capable of launching deadly surprise attacks...that would quickly dissolve due to bickering and backstabbing...
and btw
pants-on-head retarded with the chaotic evilness
my new favourite description of the Chaotics


And it applies perfectly to D&D drow:

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Re: semi-Silly Question

Postby Yriel » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:00 pm

The worst part is that Wizards of the Coast -the current D&D owner- did their best to completely remove even those few 'sociological' varations from their settings, leaving the drow in a ridiculous, parodical status.

I can't like D&D drow without their variety and variety is what makes me appreciate this comic: drow can show depth of character while retaining their appeal.
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Re: semi-Silly Question

Postby Yriel » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:50 pm

Obsidian Agent wrote:And Pathfinder Drow are simply elves who fall into wickedness. Yes, when an elf becomes evil, they turn into a drow in Pathfinder.


Do they actually change color because of 'the evulz'? o_O
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Re: semi-Silly Question

Postby Doom Chinchilla » Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:14 am

Obsidian Agent wrote:
Yriel wrote:
Obsidian Agent wrote:And Pathfinder Drow are simply elves who fall into wickedness. Yes, when an elf becomes evil, they turn into a drow in Pathfinder.


Do they actually change color because of 'the evulz'? o_O


Yup.


That actually makes the whole "good elves are white, evil elves are black" even worse, since there can't be good black elves or evil white elves... ^^;
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Re: semi-Silly Question

Postby Junglefowl26 » Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:22 pm

Well, Drow in Pathfinder are purple, specifically to avoid those connotations.

And on that note, their are plenty of good aligned black elves living in their fantasy Africa.

Also not all evil elves turn drow...though I can't remember exactly what does cause the transformation. I think underworld magic is involved as well.
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Re: semi-Silly Question

Postby Metzger » Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:26 pm

and the closest analogue for drow in the Elder Scrolls universe would be the Dunmer, but also the Ayleids and/or the Dwemer, and the Drowussu is close to the Falmer...sort of
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Re: semi-Silly Question

Postby Yriel » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:42 am

Junglefowl26 wrote:Well, Drow in Pathfinder are purple, specifically to avoid those connotations.

And on that note, their are plenty of good aligned black elves living in their fantasy Africa.

Also not all evil elves turn drow...though I can't remember exactly what does cause the transformation. I think underworld magic is involved as well.


IMO the lame part is not what color the drow are, but that 'evil' shows physical traits (even more so because those are distinguishing enough to create a 'race').

It really doesn't matter if the skin color is purple or green, or if the change happened because underground magic or divine curses, those are all excuses to take a whole race and label it 'evil' (or 'evil' save for 2-3 dudes who are 'uber' enough to be special). It is cheap and, well, ridiculous.

It turns characters into one-note caricatures: where are their motivations? Why do they behave that way? Where are their choices? Answer: they're drow, so they're evil. This is even more accentuated when the race is given a default, brainwashed mindset (like D&D drow are now, although they were different before the 'recent' changes) and then it just turns into a repetitive parody which quickly becomes a snorefest (to me at least).

This is ok for hack'n'slash D&D campaigns that only need cannon fodder, not so cool for a story.
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Re: semi-Silly Question

Postby Metzger » Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:29 pm

To revive this thread only slightly, and ask, which DT character would be best at dealing (in a civil manner) with the DnD drow?
Would it be Zal, Snad, Kiel or some other character I haven't thought of??
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Re: semi-Silly Question

Postby Dalvyserran » Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:47 pm

Obsidian Agent wrote:Snad, most likely. But I get the feeling even she would be appalled by Matron Malice Baenre.

Don't you mean Malice Do'Urden?

Snadhya would find allies with Triel, I think. Similar personality. Triel was one of the less "violence just because" daughters, and less fanatical than Quenthel. Another ally would be Gromph and his daughter Liriel, who go against the grain.

Zala'ess' political scheming is right up there with the average drow matron, but she's less willing to stab allies in the back.
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Re: semi-Silly Question

Postby Metzger » Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:31 pm

what do you think about Sene'kha (lets just say that she is alive when the Dnd drow arrives) or Kelnoz (despite him suffering from maleness, he is skilled in the art of manipulation and speech) ?
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Re: semi-Silly Question

Postby We Are Bored » Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:21 am

Yriel wrote:IMO the lame part is not what color the drow are, but that 'evil' shows physical traits (even more so because those are distinguishing enough to create a 'race').

It really doesn't matter if the skin color is purple or green, or if the change happened because underground magic or divine curses, those are all excuses to take a whole race and label it 'evil' (or 'evil' save for 2-3 dudes who are 'uber' enough to be special). It is cheap and, well, ridiculous.

It turns characters into one-note caricatures: where are their motivations? Why do they behave that way? Where are their choices? Answer: they're drow, so they're evil. This is even more accentuated when the race is given a default, brainwashed mindset (like D&D drow are now, although they were different before the 'recent' changes) and then it just turns into a repetitive parody which quickly becomes a snorefest (to me at least).

This is ok for hack'n'slash D&D campaigns that only need cannon fodder, not so cool for a story.


It's really not bad at all--in fact, it's awesome, I think, but...

First of all,it isn't ridiculous in the case described, for reasons that should be patently obvious. You had to have done something evil to gain the skin color in the first place, so obviously all with that color will be evil.

Second, it pretty much removes most of the one-note caricaturization, rather than exacerbating it. Why? Because, well, you were an elf, so suddenly "drow are evil" can be responded to with "well why are you drow?". And on top of that, there's no longer a prepackaged evil culture (Which isn't as one-note as people think), so the whole gamut of evil beliefs becomes acceptable and even standard. There's no longer an image of the chaotic evil power-seeking backstabber (again, not necessarily bad, I feel like I have to mention this like all the time by the way), so there's way more of a chance for variety.

...of course, then again, the real answer is "anything is as good, bad, or deep and interesting as people play it, not as 'it is'". But going along with this idea you can't make characters with nuance in a Chaotic Evil culture for now, even though R.A. Salvatore did.
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Re: semi-Silly Question

Postby ThatGuyThisGuy » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:03 pm

Yriel wrote:
Jiharn wrote:After Lolth made the dark elves her playthings, in millennia of existence they have never actually managed to achieve anything significant, and -despite their might- have always been stuck in a bunch of underground cities, while being unable to extend their influence outside those (and also while being unable to experience significant cultural or technological growth, due to their indoctrinated mentality)


You seem to forget that their are actually forces(with things like grond who is mentioned repeatedly to be responsible for technological stasis in general) in their world that can match them in terms of might if not exceed them like for example how they share the underdark with creatures like mindflayers and the aboleths who inherently possess great power or how their are many mighty nations on the surface with either large well equipped and trained armies or magic users wielding great power.
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Re: semi-Silly Question

Postby Yriel » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:50 am

We Are Bored wrote:
Yriel wrote:IMO the lame part is not what color the drow are, but that 'evil' shows physical traits (even more so because those are distinguishing enough to create a 'race').

It really doesn't matter if the skin color is purple or green, or if the change happened because underground magic or divine curses, those are all excuses to take a whole race and label it 'evil' (or 'evil' save for 2-3 dudes who are 'uber' enough to be special). It is cheap and, well, ridiculous.

It turns characters into one-note caricatures: where are their motivations? Why do they behave that way? Where are their choices? Answer: they're drow, so they're evil. This is even more accentuated when the race is given a default, brainwashed mindset (like D&D drow are now, although they were different before the 'recent' changes) and then it just turns into a repetitive parody which quickly becomes a snorefest (to me at least).

This is ok for hack'n'slash D&D campaigns that only need cannon fodder, not so cool for a story.


It's really not bad at all--in fact, it's awesome, I think, but...

First of all,it isn't ridiculous in the case described, for reasons that should be patently obvious. You had to have done something evil to gain the skin color in the first place, so obviously all with that color will be evil.

Second, it pretty much removes most of the one-note caricaturization, rather than exacerbating it. Why? Because, well, you were an elf, so suddenly "drow are evil" can be responded to with "well why are you drow?". And on top of that, there's no longer a prepackaged evil culture (Which isn't as one-note as people think), so the whole gamut of evil beliefs becomes acceptable and even standard. There's no longer an image of the chaotic evil power-seeking backstabber (again, not necessarily bad, I feel like I have to mention this like all the time by the way), so there's way more of a chance for variety.

...of course, then again, the real answer is "anything is as good, bad, or deep and interesting as people play it, not as 'it is'". But going along with this idea you can't make characters with nuance in a Chaotic Evil culture for now, even though R.A. Salvatore did.


That would only be valid for the one-note characterization for the Pathfinder drow, though, and not even completely -as the children of the turned elves would still have the curse-, and that is quite lame tbh.

The case of the D&D dark elves is completely different. In various D&D settings, drow being once elves doesn't solve anything. That was a curse slapped on them millennia before the present era, and the descendants of the first elves to be cursed still carry it for some reason. It doesn't help that (at least in the Forgotten Realms) the curse randomly hit an entire people to punish the actions of their armies/mages/priests.

''Evil'' has depth when it has a concrete goal behind it, when it is not the only thing that defines a character, when it doesn't turn in a self-destructing force and doesn't become the cliché of ''muahaha, I'm cruel'', or ''love is weakness, happiness is weakness, for powah and teh evulz'' nonsense. But D&D drow/Lolth are indeed written in such a way, making them quite depthless, as there's only 1 thing they actually care about, and that everything they do in their life revolves around it (often this is true even for the more nuanced characters).

Every description of the standard D&D dark elves says that to them exists only what Lolth dictates. They are brainwashed into believing that the individual has no intirinsical value, that ''status'' and ''power'' are the only things that matter and can make a person matter, and that they can only be acquired through the favor of the goddess. This means that a lot of lolthite drow are ready to fanatically pursue anything the Spider Queen deems appropriate, and she easily makes tools for her goals out of them. They don't even have control over their own life, because Lolth's dogma says that they have to become X . And even those who aren't as fanatical in pursuing Lolth's will, sill have the same goal and mindset.

So we basically have a race with brain and free will, living in these conditions for millennia, seeing any chance of progress or innovation crushed ''because dogma'', seeing the possibility of forging their future or creating their happiness taken away because some random demon said so. It is just natural that, some of them would rebel and try to change stuff, especially seeing how much Lolth's influence limits their potential as a people -from every point of view-. It would be the only logical outcome: new ideas are born or injected in the society, some see that they can lead to a better life, so the new ideas spread. Other people recognize them for their value, embrace and support them, band together and work/fight to achieve something for them or their race -- it's the need to improve one's own condition that all beings have.

Without this kind of variety, without this being played out, drow truly become one-note caricatures. This is why I am happy that there's no Lolth, no curse, no whatever BS in this comic world.

It is also what makes me like the Forgotten Realms drow, because they have substantial divergent forces in the form of Eilistraee&Vhaeraun, two deities (Lolth's children) who -each in their own way- work to free the drow from Lolth's influence and try to build a future for their people.
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