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Why does Drowtales Hates Shields?

Why does Drowtales Hates Shields?

Postby Marcus Darkstar » Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:03 am

I cant say I've ever seen or remember seeing shields EVER in the history of drowtales with the one notable exception being the Spartans depiction in one question answer page long time ago.

Now its partly understandable for Drow not to use shields since well they can make mana shields but even then a physical shield has the benefit of not needing mana to be drained from you leaving you weaker for it but even the Halms and goblin races seen to know nothing of the value of shields.

Militia men are shieldless warriors equipped with swords or shields with no sense of formation or the practicality of shields when there are archers around and your basically without armor or insufficient armor against their volleys. Hell even when they seem somewhat well organized and funded with plate armor the Hawe-Boe militiamen seem to operate as shieldless pikemen using nothing but short spears making said pike formation of limited to no value.


It seems to me the Artists hate shields for some reason or shields seem to be such a alien and taboo concept to even contemplate on in the drowtales realm. Why is this?! Drowtales seems to have goen out of its way to never place any trace of shields in this world even though its such a fundamental piece of equipment for the entire history of warfare even for today.
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Re: Why does Drowtales Hates Shields?

Postby partner555 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:29 am

Last panel of this page: http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=8961

You can follow the sequence from there.

I also note that while mana shields require an output of mana, you only have them when you need them. Normal shields have weight and that doesn't go away when you don't need it, putting a drain on stamina.

For fae, someone must have concluded that most of the time, a mana shield is better that a normal shield.

I can't speak for the goblins though.
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Re: Why does Drowtales Hates Shields?

Postby AthenAltena » Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:42 am

Faen also carries one as part of her standard gear but in the process also shows the drawbacks since you can only really block attacks coming from directly in front of you. The Sarghress use them in formations where they're most effective because they become part of a wall and you can have artillery/mana attacks coming from behind said shield wall, otherwise with the types of combat shown (i.e. not planned and between individuals) they'd not make sense to be present or be a hindrance since the tradeoff of blocking attacks is limiting your range of attack as well. And in urban combat unless you have the numbers and the space to make a full phalanx it really makes no sense to have them with you because they're an encumbrance.
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Re: Why does Drowtales Hates Shields?

Postby django » Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:45 am

Most soldiers ware Full plate armor perhaps. Tv tropes said it best.

This is, rather surprisingly, often an anachronism even when placed into Renaissance- or Reformation-era stories. Once plate armor became common, most forms of large shield were on the outs, since they were now redundant in protecting the legs.


http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... lProtectMe


Inversely, the heavier your armour is, the less the shield counts for defence. With the invention of full suits of plate armour, knights stopped carrying shields because they were already so heavily protected that a shield was little more than an extra encumbrance.


http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... AreUseless In the real life folder.
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Re: Why does Drowtales Hates Shields?

Postby Obyren » Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:51 am

Japan wasn't as into portable shields as several European cultures.
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Re: Why does Drowtales Hates Shields?

Postby MEK1724 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:54 am

Marcus Darkstar wrote:I cant say I've ever seen or remember seeing shields EVER in the history of drowtales with the one notable exception being the Spartans depiction in one question answer page long time ago.

We see shields here , here , here , here , here . here , here , here , Faen pretty much always has one , and there's one on this guys back , and here , and there's probably a few I missed.
Marcus Darkstar wrote:even the Halms and goblin races seen to know nothing of the value of shields.

No . No . No . And there's even more .
Marcus Darkstar wrote:the Hawe-Boe militiamen seem to operate as shieldless pikemen using nothing but short spears making said pike formation of limited to no value.

So are you branching into no pikes too ? *hmmm*
Drowtales seems to have goen out of its way to never place any trace of shields in this world even though its such a fundamental piece of equipment for the entire history

Not exactly , it was abandoned in pike formations , and became less common when they were able to get plate armour and such . Not entirely abandoned but certainly a bit less common then ubiquitous . Here is a bald guy I watch sometimes , whom talks about the subject .
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Re: Why does Drowtales Hates Shields?

Postby Marcus Darkstar » Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:55 am

Hmm i forgot that instance of shield combat parnter... They seem to abandon shields readily though...
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Re: Why does Drowtales Hates Shields?

Postby Marcus Darkstar » Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:57 am

Ya my bad It seems the latter chapters are far better of using shields in combat than the early stuff.
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Re: Why does Drowtales Hates Shields?

Postby Marcus Darkstar » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:05 am

But ya this is my my clan is of Vloz'ress I can be quiet a madman at times *wee*
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Re: Why does Drowtales Hates Shields?

Postby MEK1724 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:25 am

AthenAltena wrote: shows the drawbacks since you can only really block attacks coming from directly in front of you.

That's not really true . You can hold the shield side on and block from the side , shields are not simply held straight out in front , unless in a shield wall , or if the direction your opponents attacks are coming from demand it . Over your head and block from the top . Faen is simply holding hers in a stupid way . (on her right arm , when everyone still seems to attack right handed , so the blows come from her left, which leaves her totally open to that guy just swinging in from the side)
the tradeoff of blocking attacks is limiting your range of attack as well

No . You can use a sword with a shield . A shield is actually argued to be as or more significant in killing people , as a blow from a shield edge will potentially break bones or kill . What are you basing this information on ?
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Re: Why does Drowtales Hates Shields?

Postby AthenAltena » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:45 am

MEK1724 wrote: That's not really true . You can hold the shield side on and block from the side , shields are not simply held straight out in front , unless in a shield wall , or if the direction your opponents attacks are coming from demand it . Over your head and block from the top . Faen is simply holding hers in a stupid way . (on her right arm , when everyone still seems to attack right handed , so the blows come from her left, which leaves her totally open to that guy just swinging in from the side)


I meant in the sense of attacks from the side or the back, which given the Sarghress propensity for Fallen Legion and/or demons is a very real possibility in the setting. Not so much of a problem with one on one fights where you can follow the opponent, but in a skirmish with multiple parties that and the reduced visibility can be deadly. This was why the Greeks and other groups who used the phalanx formation tried to keep it together at all costs since once the formation had broken the individuals who made it up were vulnerable on their own.

MEK1724 wrote: No . You can use a sword with a shield . A shield is actually argued to be as or more significant in killing people , as a blow from a shield edge will potentially break bones or kill . What are you basing this information on ?


I admit mainly Japanese style swordcraft, where most one-on-one combat using swords didn't bother with shields due to the fact that almost all of the power in a swing designed to end a fight (i.e. the type that can cleave someone from sternum to hip) is based on it being two handed. One-handed swords are another beast entirely. Shields were used but mostly in the form of the tate which was mostly used by archers and they would almost always be put aside once things got within close range since it just wasn't worth obstructing someone's view with it.
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Re: Why does Drowtales Hates Shields?

Postby MEK1724 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:15 am

AthenAltena wrote:I meant in the sense of attacks from the side or the back, which given the Sarghress propensity for Fallen Legion and/or demons is a very real possibility in the setting.

Anyone who is not facing their opponent , is at a disadvantage , shield or not . Shields also vary extremely in weight and size , so the argument of encumbrance doesn't strictly answer why no shields . Also Kau did have a small shield in his design , earlier . He may have had it later I don't really remember .
the reduced visibility can be deadly.

A shield only reduces your visibility if you hold it directly in front of your eyes . Generally you hold it closer to your opponent then yourself to counteract this , and also if you shove it up in their face it blocks their vision instead of yours . This argument again also doesn't answer why not use smaller shields .
This was why the Greeks and other groups who used the phalanx formation tried to keep it together at all costs since once the formation had broken the individuals who made it up were vulnerable on their own.

No . Pike blocks with no shields were vulnerable on their own , and any person facing multiple opponents is vulnerable . The greek shield walls made their users most vulnerable by weight which slowed them . However many shield designs were barely heavier , or lighter then a sword or other weapons, so this argument does not apply to shields in general .
AthenAltena wrote:Shields were used but mostly in the form of the tate

Their are records of them using hand held shields , however it was meant to be more popular and better documented in the 5th and and 6th centuries . After that I believe the introduction of mounted archery made the hand held shield less popular .
AthenAltena wrote:would almost always be put aside once things got within close range since it just wasn't worth obstructing someone's view with it.

They may have put it away or backed up from it at close quarters (I can't confirm or deny that since you've cited no sources) , however the explanation of view doesn't make sense since they can mostly see over it , in most depicitons I've seen .
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Re: Why does Drowtales Hates Shields?

Postby Shrg » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:16 am

django wrote:Most soldiers ware Full plate armor perhaps. Tv tropes said it best.

This is, rather surprisingly, often an anachronism even when placed into Renaissance- or Reformation-era stories. Once plate armor became common, most forms of large shield were on the outs, since they were now redundant in protecting the legs.


http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... lProtectMe


Inversely, the heavier your armour is, the less the shield counts for defence. With the invention of full suits of plate armour, knights stopped carrying shields because they were already so heavily protected that a shield was little more than an extra encumbrance.


http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... AreUseless In the real life folder.

Shields never really went out until the widespread use of gunpowder. Yes around the 14th century they were used less and less, but there is at least one treatise which deals with "sword and shield". In the 16th century the Italians seem to be quite fond of them again. At least the round shield seem to be used quite often in the treatises. Maybe because the armour became more and more obsolete because of gunpowder so it was easier to just carry a bullet proof shield.
Shields where also used often on horseback through out the whole timespawn.
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Re: Why does Drowtales Hates Shields?

Postby TheJackinati275 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:15 am

What about Sword and Bucklering?
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