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Emberi and Empathy Training

Emberi and Empathy Training

Postby Shynte » Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:44 pm

Vedui jal,

I know I'm being a bit of a chatter box this week but I didn't want to cross threads and get everyone confused so I thought I'd start another.

Anyway, so being a bit of a real life empath myself, as I read through the comics I have often wondered if an Emberi could teach a drow to cope with or control the emotional aspect of being an empath?

Now that's not to say that an emberi would be able to teach a drow how to do all the funky mind mojo tricks - like a proper drowic empathy trainer - but it makes sense to me that an emberi would be able to teach a drow empath to 'quiet the noise' as it were. Considering the ubiquity of various forms of meditation - especially in eastern cultures - and the practices' direct ties to what is human empathy I would like to think that perhaps an Emberi practiced in meditation would be able to help a drow empath learn to 'calm the sea', so to speak.

Anywho, this actually is another facet of character creation I'm considering as I build my first DTRPG character, so any help is greatly appreciated. I'd also like to thank any and all who foster discussion here in advance. I am eager to hear what others have to say on the matter.

Sincerely,

Maynolu
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Re: Emberi and Empathy Training

Postby Disestablish » Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:50 pm

Shynte wrote:Vedui jal,

I know I'm being a bit of a chatter box this week but I didn't want to cross threads and get everyone confused so I thought I'd start another.

Anyway, so being a bit of a real life empath myself, as I read through the comics I have often wondered if an Emberi could teach a drow to cope with or control the emotional aspect of being an empath?

Now that's not to say that an emberi would be able to teach a drow how to do all the funky mind mojo tricks - like a proper drowic empathy trainer - but it makes sense to me that an emberi would be able to teach a drow empath to 'quiet the noise' as it were. Considering the ubiquity of various forms of meditation - especially in eastern cultures - and the practices' direct ties to what is human empathy I would like to think that perhaps an Emberi practiced in meditation would be able to help a drow empath learn to 'calm the sea', so to speak.

Anywho, this actually is another facet of character creation I'm considering as I build my first DTRPG character, so any help is greatly appreciated. I'd also like to thank any and all who foster discussion here in advance. I am eager to hear what others have to say on the matter.

Sincerely,

Maynolu

Highly doubtful. Empathy is not something you can simply relax. It requires decades and even centuries on the part of a drow to master and control. They need to learn not only to stay calm under its effects, but also to control and use it, something no Emberi or goblin anywhere could teach. Add to that the way Drow look down upon the goblin races and you have even lessened chances of such a probably not worthwhile venture happening.

You don't ask a horse to teach step dancing and you don't ask a non-fae to teach magic.
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Re: Emberi and Empathy Training

Postby Shynte » Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:13 pm

Disestablish wrote:You don't ask a horse to teach step dancing and you don't ask a non-fae to teach magic.


Except that empathy isn't drow-specific. Empathy is widely observed in the goblin races, just not at the same level as it is in drowic races. A good case in point would be when Vaelia saves that little fairy from the Highland Raiders.

I also specifically mentioned that an Emberi would not be capable of teaching a drow how to use empathy, but rather how to control their emotions in relation to it. In other words the emberi in question wouldn't be teaching the drow anything magical, instead they would be teaching the drow to control the emotional fluxes tied to the in-pouring of others' feelings.

Given those, I'm afraid I need more clarification to understand your point.
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Re: Emberi and Empathy Training

Postby Disestablish » Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:19 pm

Shynte wrote:
Disestablish wrote:You don't ask a horse to teach step dancing and you don't ask a non-fae to teach magic.


Except that empathy isn't drow-specific. Empathy is widely observed in the goblin races, just not at the same level as it is in drowic races. A good case in point would be when Vaelia saves that little fairy from the Highland Raiders.

I also specifically mentioned that an Emberi would not be capable of teaching a drow how to use empathy, but rather how to control their emotions in relation to it. In other words the emberi in question wouldn't be teaching the drow anything magical, instead they would be teaching the drow to control the emotional fluxes tied to the in-pouring of others' feelings.

Given those, I'm afraid I need more clarification to understand your point.

Not being mean or insulting, but your view on humanity and its inherent abilities in the Real world are not matching to those in the Drowverse. In the Drowverse, Empathy and all other abilities like aura, mana and magic are only able to be used in any way shape or form by Fae, which the Goblins races will never be able to copy or replicate in the Drowverse setting....
Wait... Are you talking about the emotional state of empathy? Or the Drowverse power of Empathy? Because I am so confused now.
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Re: Emberi and Empathy Training

Postby Dalvyserran » Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:19 pm

The goblin can give pointers on how to meditate, but as disestablish said, training and coping with empathy is up to the drow.

It's a lot like Deanna Troi and her fellow Betazoids--only masters can teach an empath how to use it. As it is a mana ability, it also takes a lot of time and lot of exposure to other fae to learn how to deal with the drawbacks.

If you're talking about relating to someone emotionally, sure, anybody can do that. But if you mean EMPATHYas in squiggly white lines drow use on each other, no a goblin cannot teach anything.
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Re: Emberi and Empathy Training

Postby Disestablish » Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:30 pm

Disestablish wrote:
Highly doubtful. Empathy is not something you can simply relax. It requires decades and even centuries on the part of a drow to master and control. They need to learn not only to stay calm under its effects, but also to control and use it, something no Emberi or goblin anywhere could teach. Add to that the way Drow look down upon the goblin races and you have even lessened chances of such a probably not worthwhile venture happening.

You don't ask a horse to teach step dancing and you don't ask a non-fae to teach magic.

This is my first post in which I clearly state that just learning to calm or deal with the emotions is pointless and is not something a Goblin can do. Empathy is not as simple as staying calm and no Goblin could even begin to grasp the concept of feeling the emotions of others directly in your mind and feel it as real as their own. They could not grasp this concept or help deal with it, again, it's like asking a horse to teach step dancing. They have no clue what step dancing is, how to do it and let alone how to TEACH it.
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Re: Emberi and Empathy Training

Postby Shynte » Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:54 pm

Disestablish wrote:This is my first post in which I clearly state that just learning to calm or deal with the emotions is pointless and is not something a Goblin can do. Empathy is not as simple as staying calm and no Goblin could even begin to grasp the concept of feeling the emotions of others directly in your mind and feel it as real as their own. They could not grasp this concept or help deal with it, again, it's like asking a horse to teach step dancing. They have no clue what step dancing is, how to do it and let alone how to TEACH it.


A goblin may not feel emotions as directly as a drowic empath, but they do deal with torrential emotions all the same. In fact what you just described is the foundation of human meditation, at least in the real world; learning to calm yourself so that you may feel the emotions of others as your own to allow you to better understand them without internalizing them.

At any rate, regardless of the source - be it magical or otherwise - the result is the same, torrential emotions, and I still can't wrap my head around how something as ubiquitous as emotions cannot share any overlap between species.

Perhaps my question would be best restated;

Could a drow keep herself from going insane due to untrained empathy, using human (Emberi) meditation techniques?
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Re: Emberi and Empathy Training

Postby Disestablish » Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:02 pm

Shynte wrote:
Disestablish wrote:This is my first post in which I clearly state that just learning to calm or deal with the emotions is pointless and is not something a Goblin can do. Empathy is not as simple as staying calm and no Goblin could even begin to grasp the concept of feeling the emotions of others directly in your mind and feel it as real as their own. They could not grasp this concept or help deal with it, again, it's like asking a horse to teach step dancing. They have no clue what step dancing is, how to do it and let alone how to TEACH it.


A goblin may not feel emotions as directly as a drowic empath, but they do deal with torrential emotions all the same. In fact what you just described is the foundation of human meditation, at least in the real world; learning to calm yourself so that you may feel the emotions of others as your own to allow you to better understand them without internalizing them.

At any rate, regardless of the source - be it magical or otherwise - the result is the same, torrential emotions, and I still can't wrap my head around how something as ubiquitous as emotions cannot share any overlap between species.

Perhaps my question would be best restated;

Could a drow keep herself from going insane due to untrained empathy, with human (Emberi) meditation techniques?

Short answer? Empathy doesn't drive drow insane. The average empathic Fae has extremely limited and weak empathy. There are very few and far between drow who have anything close to Faen or Ash'waren's level of empathic powers, which are the kind that can easily over load and drive a Drow mad, but even then to have that empathic power your Drow would need to be of Ash'waren's line.

Yes, mediation would help, but it would not help in to control a Drow's empathic powers and it would not help in a situation that empathy would drive a Drow mad, which is empathic overload, a sudden and strong unleashing of emotions that completely fry a Drow's senses suddenly, something that has caused Faen to freak out or snap on multiple occasions. These cause a empathic Fae to drop and no chance to calm themselves. If a drow is in a place where such episodes can happen to them, no amount of mediation will help, they will not last.
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Re: Emberi and Empathy Training

Postby Dalvyserran » Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:11 pm

Shynte wrote:At any rate, regardless of the source - be it magical or otherwise - the result is the same, torrential emotions, and I still can't wrap my head around how something as ubiquitous as emotions cannot share any overlap between species.

Perhaps my question would be best restated;

Could a drow keep herself from going insane due to untrained empathy, using human (Emberi) meditation techniques?


The difference is that empathy is an affinity. The same way a goblin can't teach someone how to draw blood toward the user, a goblin has no chance of teaching the mechanics of the affinity.
To answer your question, no, because an empath goes insane by constantly, feeling too many auras and emotions at once, or they're constantly exposed to too many intense feelings at once. At most a goblin can show their meditative techniques, but that doesn't help an empath deal with the cacophony of senses only fae in great number can produce.
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Re: Emberi and Empathy Training

Postby Shynte » Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:42 pm

Dalvyserran wrote:The difference is that empathy is an affinity. The same way a goblin can't teach someone how to draw blood toward the user, a goblin has no chance of teaching the mechanics of the affinity.
To answer your question, no, because an empath goes insane by constantly, feeling too many auras and emotions at once, or they're constantly exposed to too many intense feelings at once. At most a goblin can show their meditative techniques, but that doesn't help an empath deal with the cacophony of senses only fae in great number can produce.


So it sounds like what you're saying is that the insanity brought on by empathy is mental, not emotional?

If it were simply a question of emotional degrees that wouldn't make much sense because the drow could still use the goblin techniques they'd simply have to adapt them for the increased emotional load. BUT, if it's a neural breakdown caused by an actual overload of activity due to the torrent of emotions coming from surround sentients, that would make a lot more sense.
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Re: Emberi and Empathy Training

Postby Disestablish » Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:47 pm

Shynte wrote:
Dalvyserran wrote:The difference is that empathy is an affinity. The same way a goblin can't teach someone how to draw blood toward the user, a goblin has no chance of teaching the mechanics of the affinity.
To answer your question, no, because an empath goes insane by constantly, feeling too many auras and emotions at once, or they're constantly exposed to too many intense feelings at once. At most a goblin can show their meditative techniques, but that doesn't help an empath deal with the cacophony of senses only fae in great number can produce.


So it sounds like what you're saying is that the insanity brought on by empathy is mental, not emotional?

If it were simply a question of emotional degrees that wouldn't make much sense because the drow could still use the goblin techniques they'd simply have to adapt them for the increased emotional load. BUT, if it's a neural breakdown caused by an actual overload of activity due to the torrent of emotions coming from surround sentients, that would make a lot more sense.

It's both...
Look plain and simple. Mediation of any kind, emberi or otherwise will do as much good as squeezing a stress toy, which is none at all. It would not work and if a Drow has empathy powerful enough to put them at risk of overload, they will die without proper training and WILL NEVER EVER EVER receive that at the hands of any goblin in the entire world.
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Re: Emberi and Empathy Training

Postby Shynte » Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:15 pm

Disestablish wrote:It's both...
Look plain and simple. Mediation of any kind, emberi or otherwise will do as much good as squeezing a stress toy, which is none at all. It would not work and if a Drow has empathy powerful enough to put them at risk of overload, they will die without proper training and WILL NEVER EVER EVER receive that at the hands of any goblin in the entire world.


Well that's cool and all, but WHY do they die? What exactly causes a drowic empath to go insane and die?

If it's strictly emotions then simple meditation would suffice. It would simply be up to the drow to scale it for the increased load.

If it's strictly mental/neural then there's really not much that can be done because it'd be like having gangrene without proper antibiotics.

If it's equal parts both mental/neural and emotional, then meditation would be like taking Tylenol for gangrene; it wouldn't save you, but it would take the edge off the pain until you died.

I'm not out to prove anyone wrong here, I merely want to understand the clockwork of the situation. Because if I can't understand the underlying cause of why something would or would not happen to a character I create then I cannot create an adequate character.
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Re: Emberi and Empathy Training

Postby Dalvyserran » Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:27 pm

When you're attacked by empathy, this happens except Faen is still untrained after all these years. It's physical AND mental. It hurts the user and the targets. Goblins can cause this to occur and are afflicted by the backlash too.

Goblins cannot do anything for an empath to overcome and recover from this.
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Re: Emberi and Empathy Training

Postby Shynte » Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:45 pm

Dalvyserran wrote:When you're attacked by empathy, this happens except Faen is still untrained after all these years. It's physical AND mental. It hurts the user and the targets. Goblins can cause this to occur and are afflicted by the backlash too.

Goblins cannot do anything for an empath to overcome and recover from this.


Right, so what your saying is it's a neural backlash?

In other words even though what is causing the backlash is an input of emotions it's a neural overload that is stressing the empath to the point of lashing out and causing neural damage to those she's emotionally connected to at the time. In a situation such as this emotional training would not help because the problem isn't the empath's inability to cope with the emotions, it's the real physical strain on her brain that is causing her powers to spasm, lashing out in all directions.

So even if she could emotionally cope with the intense influx of emotions it wouldn't matter because it is causing so much physical strain on her brain that eventually her powers will spasm.

Kind of how if you get a stress migraine, getting rid of the emotional duress won't get rid of the migraine because the emotion has become physical and the physical symptoms must now be dealt with.
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Re: Emberi and Empathy Training

Postby Disestablish » Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:52 pm

Shynte wrote:
Dalvyserran wrote:When you're attacked by empathy, this happens except Faen is still untrained after all these years. It's physical AND mental. It hurts the user and the targets. Goblins can cause this to occur and are afflicted by the backlash too.

Goblins cannot do anything for an empath to overcome and recover from this.


Right, so what your saying is it's a neural backlash?

In other words even though what is causing the backlash is an input of emotions it's a neural overload that is stressing the empath to the point of lashing out and causing neural damage to those she's emotionally connected to at the time. In a situation such as this emotional training would not help because the problem isn't the empath's inability to cope with the emotions, it's the real physical strain on her brain that is causing her powers to spasm, lashing out in all directions.

So even if she could emotionally cope with the intense influx of emotions it wouldn't matter because it is causing so much physical strain on her brain that eventually her powers will spasm.

Kind of how if you get a stress migraine, getting rid of the emotional duress won't get rid of the migraine because the emotion has become physical and the physical symptoms must now be dealt with.

That's about it. You can see the signs of it on Faen, who was not only emotionally broken by her empathic powers, causing her years of emotional stress that still affects her today, but it physically scarred her, as that is the cause of the bulging veins around her eyes.
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