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Power, perspective and prejudices - Drow and the other races

Re: Power, perspective and prejudices - Drow and the other r

Postby Shgon Dunstan » Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:44 pm

Tainted Messiah wrote:
Well the mad king was just that.. it was a moment that was honestly pretty horrific as two wrongs definitely do not make a right but I do agree it is completely fair to remember that it is hard for the drow to hold any moral high ground when your doing equally terrible things to that race every single day.


Oh, I'm not defending the king or anything, they deserved what they got... Save maybe the self righteous speechifying as they burned, but "to die" surely. It's just... I find myself defending the goblins on this forum a lot, as some posters, from what I've seen in my very short time here anyway, don't really seem to see past the POV trap. *hmmm*

But hay, I'm someone who pretty much hates Quain'tana* and** her Highland Butche... I mean "Raide".... No, no, I mean "Butchers".

With the Raiders, I think it's mostly just how much their painted as heroes in the manga.

Though from most of the manga I can just write most of this off as "POV", the thing I've never gotten is Vaelia's rather blasé reaction to everything the drow get up to.... I mean, I know she feels gult over her village, but... Hell, even with that she comes off as a touch to "zen" about the whole thing. ^^;

*Actually probably "dislike" Snadhya'rune more then I do her, for seeming to be trying to prove the "there are no villains in DT" wrong, but I don't "hate" her as much, if you understand what I mean.

**To a much lesser extent, though still likely a bit more then "dislike".
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Re: Power, perspective and prejudices - Drow and the other r

Postby H'K'Maly » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:25 am

Tainted Messiah wrote:
Shgon Dunstan wrote:...Your joking right? o_O

The drow are perfectly willing to burn any human city that they feel so much as "clashes with the view" and see it as little more then "pest control".


Well I think H'K'Maly's joke was more centered around the fact that the Herm's don't have any cities on this continent as we know they have only been arriving by large ships and invading multiple cities.


Yup, exactly.

Shgon Dunstan wrote:I don't really care how the drow deal with their dead, but the humans wouldn't even be in the underworld to eat if they hadn't been dragged kicking and screaming there as slaves(or hell, the for express intent of being food), over the bodies of any family members who fought back... On the off chance they didn't have to watch the Raiders eat them.

Don't think for a moment that all, or hell after so many years "most", of Vaelia's village is just off somewhere doing some drow's laundry...


Well sure, but often it's human slavers who SELLS the slaves to drows. In fact, speaking about Vaelia specifically, SHE leaded the drows to the village and if she wouldn't tried to stop them who knows, she might've even got paid ...

Shgon Dunstan wrote:
Tainted Messiah wrote:Well the mad king was just that.. it was a moment that was honestly pretty horrific as two wrongs definitely do not make a right but I do agree it is completely fair to remember that it is hard for the drow to hold any moral high ground when your doing equally terrible things to that race every single day.


Oh, I'm not defending the king or anything, they deserved what they got... Save maybe the self righteous speechifying as they burned, but "to die" surely. It's just... I find myself defending the goblins on this forum a lot, as some posters, from what I've seen in my very short time here anyway, don't really seem to see past the POV trap. *hmmm*

But hay, I'm someone who pretty much hates Quain'tana* and** her Highland Butche... I mean "Raide".... No, no, I mean "Butchers".

With the Raiders, I think it's mostly just how much their painted as heroes in the manga.


I'm not saying Quain'tana is saint. I'm saying that those are cruel times and just because we don't SEE what halmes are doing to each other (because of POV) doesn't mean THEY are saints. And yes, raiders are heroes. Just as heroes from our legends ... I mean, you know how Illiada starts?

Sing, O goddess, the rage of Achilles son of Peleus, that brought countless ills upon the Achaeans. Many a brave soul did it send hurrying down to Hades, and many a hero did it yield a prey to dogs and vultures, for so were the counsels of Jove fulfilled from the day on which the son of Atreus, king of men, and great Achilles, first fell out with one another.

Illiada is one of oldest written literatures and look at what people it describes as heroes. If you think hero is supposed to have moral hight ground, you are falling to propaganda. Quain is hero - to the drow commoners. She's archdevil to Herms. Both those views are equally valid. The issue with POV is that it's really HARD to not have any.

(Even antic GODS were not good example of moral high ground. Quite the contrary, in fact.)

(Also, speaking about saints ... how much is Joan of Arc, canonized in 1920, matching your moral views?)
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Re: Power, perspective and prejudices - Drow and the other r

Postby Ash'arion » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:20 pm

Illiada is one of oldest written literatures and look at what people it describes as heroes. If you think hero is supposed to have moral hight ground, you are falling to propaganda.


I blame Disney. And the vast amount of modern entertainment codified by his corporation's example. Seriously, the way Disneycorp has butchered at least a dozen old stories and made them more "kid friendly" for modern America is entirely appalling. I mean, imagine if he did with the Bible what he did with the Grimm Fairy Tale Collection and the Legend of Hercules. Only the characters' names and their base defining traits would have a chance of being retained.
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Re: Power, perspective and prejudices - Drow and the other r

Postby ShinjiGAR » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:38 pm

Even though I'm a huge fan of Disney's work - and I think they improved the original in some instances - all I can say is that it's ironic how you listed the Grimm fairy tales, when the Brothers Grimm themselves would tone down the stories through subsequent editions - or cut out stories entirely - to appeal to families. Really, I don't think the Disney adaptations are noticeably lighter than what the Brothers Grimm did themselves. At least you didn't list Bambi as light children's fare, as so many do.

The problem is that the definition of heroic has changed greatly over time and between cultures. People were thought to have the higher moral ground even if (and sometimes because) they killed their enemies ruthlessly. The Romans considered it just to efficiently conquer a new territory and enslave lots of people. If someone tried to invade them, it was a sign the other group were barbarians (which in Ancient Greece meant "anyone who is not Greek").
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Re: Power, perspective and prejudices - Drow and the other r

Postby H'K'Maly » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:37 pm

Ash'arion wrote:
Illiada is one of oldest written literatures and look at what people it describes as heroes. If you think hero is supposed to have moral hight ground, you are falling to propaganda.


I blame Disney. And the vast amount of modern entertainment codified by his corporation's example. Seriously, the way Disneycorp has butchered at least a dozen old stories and made them more "kid friendly" for modern America is entirely appalling. I mean, imagine if he did with the Bible what he did with the Grimm Fairy Tale Collection and the Legend of Hercules. Only the characters' names and their base defining traits would have a chance of being retained.


ShinjiGAR wrote:Even though I'm a huge fan of Disney's work - and I think they improved the original in some instances - all I can say is that it's ironic how you listed the Grimm fairy tales, when the Brothers Grimm themselves would tone down the stories through subsequent editions - or cut out stories entirely - to appeal to families. Really, I don't think the Disney adaptations are noticeably lighter than what the Brothers Grimm did themselves. At least you didn't list Bambi as light children's fare, as so many do.


I think that Disney did big part of this but I agree it's ongoing process and Disney is only the last one in line. In original fairy tales, there was more blood and even more sex. Examples include Little Red Riding Hood or Sleeping Beauty ... luckily, recently we started to get better versions (or at least with more blood) :).

ShinjiGAR wrote:The problem is that the definition of heroic has changed greatly over time and between cultures. People were thought to have the higher moral ground even if (and sometimes because)


Certainly because. I mean, I don't think you'll find hero who didn't killed anyone before 1800.

ShinjiGAR wrote:they killed their enemies ruthlessly. The Romans considered it just to efficiently conquer a new territory and enslave lots of people. If someone tried to invade them, it was a sign the other group were barbarians (which in Ancient Greece meant "anyone who is not Greek").


The real difference was WHO did hero kill. I mean, killing women and childrens usually wasn't considered hero deed ... unless the woman was witch or something ... on the other hand, it rarely disqualified the person from being hero.

Compare that with Batman. In my opinion, Batman is personally responsible for all the deaths caused be people he didn't kill when he were catching them yet again. (And I'm not alone on this.)
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Re: Power, perspective and prejudices - Drow and the other r

Postby ShinjiGAR » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:16 pm

The idea of a hero not killing is so ingrained in me that it took a while for me to really get behind Kenshiro's methods in Fist of the North Star. Then, I realized that there aren't any prisons to hold these psychopaths, unlike in real life. So, I now make an exception for villains too powerful to be contained. Batman's villains, for the most part, are ordinary guys, yet have escaped from prison or the Asylum too many times. Maybe they just need tougher security, but it's hard to say. I admit, I'm very much influenced by my own opposition to the death penalty in all its forms.

Also, that comic looks a lot like a girl or woman justifying her habit of killing people when it's convenient for her. Maybe I need better context for this.
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Re: Power, perspective and prejudices - Drow and the other r

Postby H'K'Maly » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:28 am

ShinjiGAR wrote:Also, that comic looks a lot like a girl or woman justifying her habit of killing people when it's convenient for her. Maybe I need better context for this.


Feel free to get the context, but beware, most of that comic is NSFW :).

ShinjiGAR wrote:I admit, I'm very much influenced by my own opposition to the death penalty in all its forms.


It's good you know about it. I think that it will be offtopic here to argue for or against, but it's important to topic that, again, the opposition to death penalty is very young. Most heroes not only carried out the death penalty, but also did the part of judge and jury, which I personally find more disturbing. On the other hand, most heroes faced pretty straightforward crimes or were directly in war or war-like situation.

ShinjiGAR wrote:I realized that there aren't any prisons to hold these psychopaths, unlike in real life. So, I now make an exception for villains too powerful to be contained.


Many historical or fantasy context lacked prisons able to hold even "ordinary" villains. Or the hero :).

And speaking about real life ... sometimes it looks like many villains are too rich to be contained.
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Re: Power, perspective and prejudices - Drow and the other r

Postby PoignardAzur » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:05 pm

ShinjiGAR wrote:Batman's villains, for the most part, are ordinary guys, yet have escaped from prison or the Asylum too many times. Maybe they just need tougher security, but it's hard to say. I admit, I'm very much influenced by my own opposition to the death penalty in all its forms.

Actually, it's the part of Batman's stories that need the most suspension of disbelief : while it makes sens for batman not to kill ('cause else he's just another psycopath running wild), in a world where you have giant reptilian cannibals, maniacs that can escape prison 100++ times and kill lots of people each time, and the freaking joker... well, in that kind of world, death sentence wouldn't be an option but a necessity to prevent the society from collapsing (and save hundreds of lives, btw).
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Re: Power, perspective and prejudices - Drow and the other r

Postby H'K'Maly » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:11 am

PoignardAzur wrote:
ShinjiGAR wrote:Batman's villains, for the most part, are ordinary guys, yet have escaped from prison or the Asylum too many times. Maybe they just need tougher security, but it's hard to say. I admit, I'm very much influenced by my own opposition to the death penalty in all its forms.

Actually, it's the part of Batman's stories that need the most suspension of disbelief : while it makes sens for batman not to kill ('cause else he's just another psycopath running wild), in a world where you have giant reptilian cannibals, maniacs that can escape prison 100++ times and kill lots of people each time, and the freaking joker... well, in that kind of world, death sentence wouldn't be an option but a necessity to prevent the society from collapsing (and save hundreds of lives, btw).


You know, about that psychopat running wild part, I'm not entirely convinced he's not one. I don't think that not killing is proof of mental health.

And those people are criminals CONVINCTED for multiple murders. The "if you escape prisons, you will be wanted dead or alive, preferably dead" should be part of their sentence.
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Re: Power, perspective and prejudices - Drow and the other r

Postby PoignardAzur » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:32 pm

Ash'arion wrote:I blame Disney. And the vast amount of modern entertainment codified by his corporation's example. Seriously, the way Disneycorp has butchered at least a dozen old stories and made them more "kid friendly" for modern America is entirely appalling. I mean, imagine if he did with the Bible what he did with the Grimm Fairy Tale Collection and the Legend of Hercules. Only the characters' names and their base defining traits would have a chance of being retained.

You seem to think that "kid friendly" is bad. Why ? (plus, as already said, disney didn't exactly invent disneyfication).

H'K'Maly wrote:You know, about that psychopat running wild part, I'm not entirely convinced he's not one. I don't think that not killing is proof of mental health.

Well, you know what I mean. The whole "not killing anybody" is the one thing that makes batman a good guy, and not just another serial killer with an unusual theme.
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Re: Power, perspective and prejudices - Drow and the other r

Postby H'K'Maly » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:07 am

PoignardAzur wrote:
Ash'arion wrote:I blame Disney. And the vast amount of modern entertainment codified by his corporation's example. Seriously, the way Disneycorp has butchered at least a dozen old stories and made them more "kid friendly" for modern America is entirely appalling. I mean, imagine if he did with the Bible what he did with the Grimm Fairy Tale Collection and the Legend of Hercules. Only the characters' names and their base defining traits would have a chance of being retained.

You seem to think that "kid friendly" is bad. Why ? (plus, as already said, disney didn't exactly invent disneyfication).


Kids don't need to be told there are monster. They know that already. They need to be told that monsters can be destroyed. (Susan "Death" Sto Helit).

PoignardAzur wrote:
H'K'Maly wrote:You know, about that psychopat running wild part, I'm not entirely convinced he's not one. I don't think that not killing is proof of mental health.

Well, you know what I mean. The whole "not killing anybody" is the one thing that makes batman a good guy, and not just another serial killer with an unusual theme.


I know what you mean. I just don't agree. Didn't I already mentioned that he is as much responsible for the deaths of innocent victims as the murderers he is keeping alive?

The way he choses his targets should be what makes him good guy. And note that being good guy and being serial killer isn't in contradiction. Technically, any executioner is serial killer.

I'm not saying he should start murdering people for traffic crimes, or killing random men who happen to be near screaming women. But those supervillains he is catching repeately ...

Cops can't be TOO good. Look at Robocop II.
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Re: Power, perspective and prejudices - Drow and the other r

Postby PoignardAzur » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:52 pm

H'K'Maly wrote:Kids don't need to be told there are monster. They know that already. They need to be told that monsters can be destroyed. (Susan "Death" Sto Helit).

I'm not sure I understood that.

H'K'Maly wrote:I know what you mean. I just don't agree. Didn't I already mentioned that he is as much responsible for the deaths of innocent victims as the murderers he is keeping alive?

The way he choses his targets should be what makes him good guy. And note that being good guy and being serial killer isn't in contradiction. Technically, any executioner is serial killer.

No I didn't mean "He's a good guy because he doesn't kill", I meant "Not killing is what prevents him from going nuts (well, nuttier) and becoming a bad guy". And I think the whole "Who is responsible for those deaths" point is kinda moot, since the whole bad guy immunity thing relies on suspension of disbelief before actual morality (what I just said is just a posteriori justification). Plus, if anything, it's Gotham's system that is in cause (not having death penalty for Joker&co) : it's not Batman who should choose whether to kill anyone, it's the justice. They just don't.

Anyway, back to Disney : what's so bad about being kid-friendly ? The Lion King is kid-friendly and it has "Be prepared". Wall-E is kid friendly and it has NO I CAN'T TAKE JUST ONE THING THAT MOVE* IS TOO AWESOME.
*Movie. I meant movie, not move.
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Re: Power, perspective and prejudices - Drow and the other r

Postby H'K'Maly » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:44 am

PoignardAzur wrote:
H'K'Maly wrote:Kids don't need to be told there are monster. They know that already. They need to be told that monsters can be destroyed. (Susan "Death" Sto Helit).

I'm not sure I understood that.


Which part? It's pretty simple. The point of fairy stories is not to show childrens that monster exists, because that is something they already know. The point is to show them that monsters, no matter how scary, can be destroyed. It's important for their mental health. Later they may find out that some "monsters" of real world can't be destroyed, but as adults they may be able to cope with that.

(Also, Susan "Death" Sto Helit, author of that quote.)

PoignardAzur wrote:
H'K'Maly wrote:I know what you mean. I just don't agree. Didn't I already mentioned that he is as much responsible for the deaths of innocent victims as the murderers he is keeping alive?

The way he choses his targets should be what makes him good guy. And note that being good guy and being serial killer isn't in contradiction. Technically, any executioner is serial killer.

No I didn't mean "He's a good guy because he doesn't kill", I meant "Not killing is what prevents him from going nuts (well, nuttier) and becoming a bad guy".


Oh. This may indeed by right, although it only proves that he really isn't mentally healthy.

PoignardAzur wrote:And I think the whole "Who is responsible for those deaths" point is kinda moot, since the whole bad guy immunity thing relies on suspension of disbelief before actual morality (what I just said is just a posteriori justification).


True. It's similar to many heroes who use hand-to-hand combat instead of weapons claiming they do it to not kill anyone, although killing someone without weapon is not so hard. Specifically, there is no non-magic way how to safely make someone unconcious.

PoignardAzur wrote:Plus, if anything, it's Gotham's system that is in cause (not having death penalty for Joker&co) : it's not Batman who should choose whether to kill anyone, it's the justice. They just don't.


True.

PoignardAzur wrote:Anyway, back to Disney : what's so bad about being kid-friendly ? The Lion King is kid-friendly and it has "Be prepared". Wall-E is kid friendly and it has NO I CAN'T TAKE JUST ONE THING THAT MOVE IS TOO AWESOME.


I didn't see Lion King. I did see Wall-E but don't remember context for that.

The bad part about kid-friendly is that it's often used as excuse to make something stupid (as in "so unrealistic it's stupid"). Han Solo shot first. (Although, this happened before Disney bought them. On the other hand, Wall-E was produced by Pixar.)

... hmmm ... you know, the most problematic bit of being kid-friendly is when you try to make kid-friendly something which is not supposed to be for kids. As seen by the fact I can't think of any good examples in actual fairy tale.
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Re: Power, perspective and prejudices - Drow and the other r

Postby ShinjiGAR » Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:37 am

H'K'Maly wrote:
PoignardAzur wrote:
Ash'arion wrote:I blame Disney. And the vast amount of modern entertainment codified by his corporation's example. Seriously, the way Disneycorp has butchered at least a dozen old stories and made them more "kid friendly" for modern America is entirely appalling. I mean, imagine if he did with the Bible what he did with the Grimm Fairy Tale Collection and the Legend of Hercules. Only the characters' names and their base defining traits would have a chance of being retained.

You seem to think that "kid friendly" is bad. Why ? (plus, as already said, disney didn't exactly invent disneyfication).


Kids don't need to be told there are monster. They know that already. They need to be told that monsters can be destroyed. (Susan "Death" Sto Helit).


The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon. -- G. K. Chesterton

Same basic idea, I think.
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Re: Power, perspective and prejudices - Drow and the other r

Postby H'K'Maly » Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:47 pm

ShinjiGAR wrote:
H'K'Maly wrote:
PoignardAzur wrote:You seem to think that "kid friendly" is bad. Why ? (plus, as already said, disney didn't exactly invent disneyfication).


Kids don't need to be told there are monster. They know that already. They need to be told that monsters can be destroyed. (Susan "Death" Sto Helit).


The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon. -- G. K. Chesterton

Same basic idea, I think.


Actually, if you posted whole quote, you would see even better match: Fairy tales, then, are not responsible for producing in children fear, or any of the shapes of fear; fairy tales do not give the child the idea of the evil or the ugly; that is in the child already, because it is in the world already. Fairy tales do not give the child his first idea of bogey. What fairy tales give the child is his first clear idea of the possible defeat of bogey. The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon. Exactly what the fairy tale does is this: it accustoms him for a series of clear pictures to the idea that these limitless terrors had a limit, that these shapeless enemies have enemies in the knights of God, that there is something in the universe more mystical than darkness, and stronger than strong fear.

Tremendous Trifles (1909), XVII: "The Red Angel"
Variant: Fairy tales are more than true — not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be beaten.
Earliest known attribution is an epigraph in Neil Gaiman, Coraline (2004) (Statement from Gaiman on the variant)
Variant: Fairytales don’t tell children that dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairytales tell children that dragons can be killed.
Appeared in w:Criminal Minds 2007 episode Seven Seconds (IMDB quote entry)


(BTW, thanks for pointing that author: I suspect Pratchett was inspired by him.)
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