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Elf origins thoery + possible halme evol. path

Elf origins thoery + possible halme evol. path

Postby acegynner » Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:24 pm

Please bear with me ifbthos has already been brought up.

What if the elves, and dark elves were once humane, or a human like species? What of the smaller faerie creature weren't all created by elves?

A theory I came up with is that maybe elves, and dark elves didn't always have auras. Initially they were like halmes, and developed a bond with fae creatures, which allowed them to indirectly manipulate manna. Overtime they they evolved into one organism, similar to what happened with the mitochondria in our cells which process and provide our cells energy and thereby keep us alive. Just like their auras do for them.

Even if this isn't what happened, isn't it also possible that a species fae could eventually develop a widespread bonds with humans, and eventually form a more symbiotic bond, and from there eventually become one with their human host?
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Re: Elf origins thoery + possible halme evol. path

Postby Ash'arion » Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:47 pm

The thing about evolution is that it happens on a generational basis, and species with long life spans also have wide gaps between generations. Which means that, barring something drastic, evolutionary changes would take an extremely long time. The drow came about because of lack of sunlight, emaciation, and moon dust; the xuiles came about for the same reasons plus several (possibly a dozen) generations. Also I'm sure that mana-bearing fae have predated all variants of halmes by a considerable span of time. Additionally, halmes seem to be to fae in this story what mammals were to dinosaurs, that is, an overall far inferior species that managed to start surviving on a significant level only because some cataclysm wiped out most of the dominant ones. The differences here being that the fae are intelligent, actually caused the problem, and some of them survived. Halmes and fae cannot interbreed in this setting, and attempts to do so are considered disgusting bestiality by the fae, even though some of them have successfully reproduced with actual (sort of) animals (looking at you, Mel'arnach). Additionally, I believe the sprites evolved independently of interference from higher-order fae like vanir and dokkalfar.
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Re: Elf origins thoery + possible halme evol. path

Postby Dalvyserran » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:31 pm

acegynner wrote:Please bear with me ifbthos has already been brought up.

What if the elves, and dark elves were once humane, or a human like species? What of the smaller faerie creature weren't all created by elves?

A theory I came up with is that maybe elves, and dark elves didn't always have auras. Initially they were like halmes, and developed a bond with fae creatures, which allowed them to indirectly manipulate manna. Overtime they they evolved into one organism, similar to what happened with the mitochondria in our cells which process and provide our cells energy and thereby keep us alive. Just like their auras do for them.


Going based on this http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=8251 I believe the intelligent fae always had an aura. I'm not sure how long ago this event was or if nonfae existed that far back. However, because the Moons Age had the entire continent covered in mana, I'm throwing it out that the non-fae are results of devolved lifeforms that lost the ability to harness mana. Elves would still be different from the ancestors of the auraless goblins, in this theory.

it's like a dog and a fish... came from a common ancestor through evolution but they are too far apart to be true relatives.

Everything on this page is a goblin, which is to say that anything that doesn't have an aura is a goblin EXCEPT dvergar and ferals, which are their own classifications. Now based on this I hypothesize that halmes, emberi and hermionne are evolutions of Noz, and the kotorc is a devolution of the Noz

Even if this isn't what happened, isn't it also possible that a species fae could eventually develop a widespread bonds with humans, and eventually form a more symbiotic bond, and from there eventually become one with their human host?


Still not possible, as fae races/plants and nonfae are on completely different levels now. Vaelia is only able to "perform" any kind of magic because that's Chu and Skwerk (both Locust queens) who are doing the magic, not her.

Also, something with an aura MUST have another object with aura in order to survive. A halme and a locust queen can't go off on an adventure together on the surface, because the queen will die from the complete lack of mana.

even though some of them have successfully reproduced with actual (sort of) animals (looking at you, Mel'arnach).


Mel was only able to make a baby with Zhor because he is still genetically a dark elf.
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Re: Elf origins thoery + possible halme evol. path

Postby MEK1724 » Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:23 am

Dalvyserran wrote:I believe the intelligent fae always had an aura.

Plants have auras too .
This implies that it is fairly easy for a species to lose or gain one , even completely distinct classes of organisms (unless it is being argued that the mana plants are more closely related to elves then other plants , or mana plants were due to elven manipulation back in the distant past). The fact that the death flower looks fairly similar to our flowers (unless there aren't normal flowers like roses in this setting) , and was stated to be mana bearing , so I'd say the split between mana bearing and non mana bearing occurred relatively recently in time (geologically speaking at least) , and reoccurred in very diverse types of organism .
Initially they were like halmes, and developed a bond with fae creatures, which allowed them to indirectly manipulate manna.

Orcs have pointy ears like elves and halmes don't . Ergo they were probably more like the Nozes and kotorcs if they were like anything . Also fae creatures were the dominant species type at one point , so it's at least as likely (if not more likely) that goblinoids ancestors were once mana bearing creatures which lost the trait. (the sightless Xuillesolen are an example of mana producing traits disappearing , as well as the faes very long lifespans, although even they have vestigal auras , which are still somewhat useful for dispelling) This does not imply that they can interbreed as the split could have arisen millions of years ago , and the mana producing trait also seems to be important for reproduction .

There is the question of why it was a beneficial change and spread in my argument but meh .
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Re: Elf origins thoery + possible halme evol. path

Postby Junglefowl26 » Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:31 pm

Why it is a beneficial change? Seems obvious to me: fae creatures are, on average, bigger, healthier, and longer lived than non-fae while requiring far less food because mana meets their energy needs. Not to mention they get magic powers...well, at least the sentient ones do, but it is possible some of the non-sentient ones do as well.

Meanwhile, the two big fae weaknesses wouldn't apply before the Moonless Age: demons have to summoned to be a threat, and the reliance of fae on a mana pool is pretty much a non-factor when there are fae creatures and plants pretty much everywhere, creating endless pools to draw upon.

I think the real question is how non-fea were not driven to extinction given the evolutionary advantages of the competition.
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Re: Elf origins thoery + possible halme evol. path

Postby MEK1724 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:43 am

Junglefowl26 wrote:I think the real question is how non-fea were not driven to extinction given the evolutionary advantages of the competition.

If Mana is produced by life forms , then there may have been manaless areas even before the demons wiped out the fae races , in the deserts and freezing cold areas of the world . The non-mana bearing lifeforms could have had an advantage in those areas , and spread out from those areas when the fae races wiped themselves out . *hmmm*
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Re: Elf origins thoery + possible halme evol. path

Postby Junglefowl26 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:38 pm

Good point - very good point.

It did occur to me that most native underworld life is non-mana, so I guess that was a refuge for them too. Though, that is somewhat odd, since mana is a big reason that the drow can even survive underground.
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Re: Elf origins thoery + possible halme evol. path

Postby Finn MacCool » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:46 pm

uhh, as i understand it drow (and other mana-bearing creatures and plants) don't need really (ambient) mana to survive as a species, but to survive longer individually.
without the mana, non-fae don't have much of an advantage over them. it's just that the drow don't have their usual advantage over the non-fae.
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Re: Elf origins thoery + possible halme evol. path

Postby Whispering shadows » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:05 pm

Just saw this topic and couldn't resist putting my two cents in.

Think about it this way. Elves (and to some extent other fae) are highly specialized creatures that are adapted to live only in an extremely mana rich environment. Without mana they begin to lose many of the benefits of having an aura, one being longevity but there may well be other side effects we just don't know about. Now think about their low birthrate. How long would their race survive as a species if they did not dwell within their mana rich natural habitats and, as a result, only lived about as long as humans do? Not very long I would imagine.
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Re: Elf origins thoery + possible halme evol. path

Postby Dalvyserran » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:04 pm

You are right; elves are kinda like orangutans, pandas and creatures living islands like the Galapagos. Highly adapted and dependent on the environment.
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Re: Elf origins thoery + possible halme evol. path

Postby MEK1724 » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:27 pm

Whispering shadows wrote:Think about it this way. Elves (and to some extent other fae) are highly specialized creatures that are adapted to live only in an extremely mana rich environment. Without mana they begin to lose many of the benefits of having an aura, one being longevity but there may well be other side effects we just don't know about. Now think about their low birthrate. How long would their race survive as a species if they did not dwell within their mana rich natural habitats and, as a result, only lived about as long as humans do? Not very long I would imagine.

Also they have to expend energy to make the mana thing (or at least it appears that they do) , which means they'd need more food to survive then a similar sized goblinoid .
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Re: Elf origins thoery + possible halme evol. path

Postby Junglefowl26 » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:56 pm

^ Actually it is an important plot point that, thanks to their mana, they need less food to survive than a human, despite being larger.

It is pretty much the only reason they can even survive underground.

(Basically, mana spits in the face of thermodynamics!)
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Re: Elf origins thoery + possible halme evol. path

Postby MEK1724 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:08 am

^ Actually it is an important plot point that, thanks to their mana, they need less food to survive than a human, despite being larger.

If by important plot point , you mean "referenced in a daydream story several years ago , and never addressed in the story after" , then yes . Also if they're bleeding off mana into their surroundings when by themselves , then it is more likely that mana in won't equal mana out , hence meaning they're in negative energy balance .
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Re: Elf origins thoery + possible halme evol. path

Postby Smokehammer » Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:31 am

I see Fae life as a completely separate type of cell (much like plant and animal cells). A fae cell would contain theoretically, a “manaplast” and/or a "manalyse" type of organelle system. So yeah, the "absorption" of a fae creature (in this case all the way back at bacterial level) is totally possible.

Now, here’s the kicker. Fae life seems to default back to the traditional Calvin/Krebs cycle for energy production (normal Gaean/earthling style energy generation) in the absence of mana energy, or even in conjunction with mana energy. This sort of lends itself to the idea that Fae and Non-fae have a kind of somewhat recent evolutionary cross over(rather than before life became eukaryotic). Redundancy is usually a tell tale sign you’ve got a mutant on your hands -there’s little need for chloroplasts when you have manaplasts. If they only utilized mana energy (rather than sunlight) then you could make a much stronger case for simple eukaryote evolution.

I think there are/were some theories floating around that a sort of proto Feral was exposed to “moon radiation” slightly before the Dawns Age and they became the first “elves”. I would have to assume some sort of similar exposure may have made the plant & other fae animal life as well if thats the case. So, under those circumstances could you expose goblinoids to a similar form of radiation and have mana using “goblin” descendants? Well, that seems extremely possible, but you’d have to have your goblins (which actually have a very slow generation rate -snark) undergo the exact same set of circumstances and then wait however long it took for them to become Fae. - And as a couple of people have pointed out, that seems extremely unlikely at this point because with the extra-dimensional threat, mana energy production and utilization has become a liability more than a favorable trait.

You could maybe transplant the manablasts/lyses into a goblinoid, but to the best of my knowledge nobody's ever managed to force an animal cell to photosynthesize. Even though chloroplasts have their own genome, and were once possibly small bacteria, in their current state they need nuclear DNA to function within a cell. Your "best bet" would be the radiation exposure and then cross your fingers for the same chain of mutations to occur, or full on gene-splicing(dont laugh the Jaal are doing just that), or "manaphyll" injections (whatever carrier molecule actually mobilizes mana energy into a usable substance) That might not do you much good though, given youd basically be a fae "plant" at that point, which would make a you a nice elf battery, but little more. Given the way fae animals use mana, specifically elves, there must also be some heavy organ/nervous system adaption to actually channel mana energy into force.

However, this planet has 9 moons and 2 mile across geodes. It must outrageously huge and weve seen what? One continent -which may be a tiny island? Its possible that theres a very mana rich environ nobody knew about way over yonder. Airships, even run on hot air might have a hard time crossing vast oceans to the point of where the Moon’s Age cultures may have fostered a “flat earth” concept. It certainly looks like it anyway, after seeing their “three world” globe Snadhya was holding. Keep in mind though , that all of this is reading a lot into a chibi and rumors and is therefore only theory. If you want to write fan fiction or have characters where humans become Fae via a long term relationship with Fae, knock yourself out -but remember to have a thick skin about it being disregarded as “impossible” in the current setting. As long as Jaal type-science is employed somehow however, feel free to scoff back at them, and if they tell you hey, but the Jaal can only manipulate mana barring flesh, laugh. Because hey blood and wood sorcery, yo? :P

P.S. This whole discussion also assumes that Drowtales is a “scifi”. If it’s a fantasy, there’s nothing stopping the Fae “aura” from simply being and having no morphological basis in a Fae organism’s structure. - It can literally be “magic” and magic that only likes X plants, X bugs and primates with horizontal donkey ears.
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Re: Elf origins thoery + possible halme evol. path

Postby H'K'Maly » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:30 pm

Junglefowl26 wrote:(Basically, mana spits in the face of thermodynamics!)


Yes it does. It is a well known fact that magic ignores second law of thermodynamics and regarding the first one ... well ... how exactly do you plan to close your thermally isolated system so no magic can get in or out?

Smokehammer wrote:I see Fae life as a completely separate type of cell (much like plant and animal cells). A fae cell would contain theoretically, a “manaplast” and/or a "manalyse" type of organelle system. So yeah, the "absorption" of a fae creature (in this case all the way back at bacterial level) is totally possible.


Or "manachlorians" :)

Smokehammer wrote:Now, here’s the kicker. Fae life seems to default back to the traditional Calvin/Krebs cycle for energy production (normal Gaean/earthling style energy generation) in the absence of mana energy, or even in conjunction with mana energy. This sort of lends itself to the idea that Fae and Non-fae have a kind of somewhat recent evolutionary cross over(rather than before life became eukaryotic). Redundancy is usually a tell tale sign you’ve got a mutant on your hands -there’s little need for chloroplasts when you have manaplasts. If they only utilized mana energy (rather than sunlight) then you could make a much stronger case for simple eukaryote evolution.


Your "recently" can still be hundred of millions of years. Also, earth plants have both mitochondria and chloroplasts, it is entirely possible there is reason to have both manaplasts and chloroplasts.

Smokehammer wrote:I think there are/were some theories floating around that a sort of proto Feral was exposed to “moon radiation” slightly before the Dawns Age and they became the first “elves”. I would have to assume some sort of similar exposure may have made the plant & other fae animal life as well if thats the case. So, under those circumstances could you expose goblinoids to a similar form of radiation and have mana using “goblin” descendants? Well, that seems extremely possible, but you’d have to have your goblins (which actually have a very slow generation rate -snark) undergo the exact same set of circumstances and then wait however long it took for them to become Fae.


Alternatively, the common ancestor of Ferals, Elves and cats existed few millions years before Dawns Age and some of them were radiated ...

Smokehammer wrote: - And as a couple of people have pointed out, that seems extremely unlikely at this point because with the extra-dimensional threat, mana energy production and utilization has become a liability more than a favorable trait.

You could maybe transplant the manablasts/lyses into a goblinoid, but to the best of my knowledge nobody's ever managed to force an animal cell to photosynthesize. Even though chloroplasts have their own genome, and were once possibly small bacteria, in their current state they need nuclear DNA to function within a cell. Your "best bet" would be the radiation exposure and then cross your fingers for the same chain of mutations to occur, or full on gene-splicing(dont laugh the Jaal are doing just that), or "manaphyll" injections (whatever carrier molecule actually mobilizes mana energy into a usable substance) That might not do you much good though, given youd basically be a fae "plant" at that point, which would make a you a nice elf battery, but little more. Given the way fae animals use mana, specifically elves, there must also be some heavy organ/nervous system adaption to actually channel mana energy into force.


Which points to more generations between elves and their non-fae ancestors.

Smokehammer wrote:However, this planet has 9 moons and 2 mile across geodes. It must outrageously huge and weve seen what? One continent -which may be a tiny island? Its possible that theres a very mana rich environ nobody knew about way over yonder. Airships, even run on hot air might have a hard time crossing vast oceans to the point of where the Moon’s Age cultures may have fostered a “flat earth” concept. It certainly looks like it anyway, after seeing their “three world” globe Snadhya was holding.


The fact moonless age elves don't know that their planet is round - assuming it IS round, as we can't be sure about that - doesn't mean this knowledge didn't exist in moon age. The fact they managed to DESTROY a moon suggests they had something better that airships.

(Yeah, drowtales "planet" doesn't need to be round. We don't know enough about physical laws of their universe to prove that. Even less can we prove something about it's size. Geodes, seriously? Can we even prove there is not one with same length on earth? It was in the The Core (2003), not that it would say so much.)

Smokehammer wrote:P.S. This whole discussion also assumes that Drowtales is a “scifi”. If it’s a fantasy, there’s nothing stopping the Fae “aura” from simply being and having no morphological basis in a Fae organism’s structure. - It can literally be “magic” and magic that only likes X plants, X bugs and primates with horizontal donkey ears.


You see a division which may not exist. Every world have some set of laws (or rules). Sure, many fantasy worlds have laws which seem arbitrary, high level and unscientific, but is there really a clear difference between them and laws governing sci-fi worlds? Or is there simply continuous axis of "arbitrarity"?

Many "sci-fi" movies (like mentioned The Core) are using stuff which, while scientific at surface, can't hold under closer inspection. Is it really any different from fantasy words, which doesn't pretend the rules governing their world matches our world?

Newton and many physicists after them taught that set of laws of our world is simple and elegant and works locally on level of elemental particles. With quantum physics, it's no longer so easy. In fact, that bit about physical laws being local was disproved (see Bell's inequalities). So, even our OWN world is not so "scientific" as we though.

(Also ... are you SURE there is no scientific reason for correlation between mana abilities and length of ears?)
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