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Slave armies

Re: Slave armies

Postby Khora2150 » Sun May 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Derkath of Morrowind wrote:I collect weapons, albeit it steel ones. Yes, they have different weight, but, I was referring to the assassins in that regard. Couldn't you simply give your slave soldiers/assassins steel or iron weapons and equipment? Also, the Romans to a certain extent used bronze, didn't they have some of the most advanced tactics of their time? Sun Tzu's art of war is still read to this day. My point is low tech doesn't equal outdated/inferior tactics.

Edit: Yes, you're right about assassins training being more about than just killing with a dagger. But, my point still stands.


One bit of trivia is looking after said weapons is totally different. When ancient egyptians fought against a peoples who used iron weapons, they noticed iron made for a far more formidable blade than bronze or copper. Of course, when the pillaged iron blades started to rust, they had no idea what to do. Bronze never rusts and requires far less care to be effective.

I would assume the main reason for Halmes not being used as specialists is because halmes have endless reasons to be mad at their drow masters.

Why would you train a halme, who is little more than a slave at best, to kill heavily guarded targets with a degree of proficiency when they might very well turn on you. Whats more, you cannot sense their aura, and will not be forewarned when they do betray you.
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Re: Slave armies

Postby H'K'Maly » Sun May 26, 2013 2:19 pm

Derkath of Morrowind wrote:I collect weapons, albeit it steel ones. Yes, they have different weight, but, I was referring to the assassins in that regard. Couldn't you simply give your slave soldiers/assassins steel or iron weapons and equipment?


You obviously can, but unless they are trained to use them, their effectiveness will be low. Which is acceptable for soldiers used in big numbers, but not for assassins, even if you use them in big numbers (not speaking about fact that using assassins in big numbers is contraindication in itself).

Derkath of Morrowind wrote:Also, the Romans to a certain extent used bronze, didn't they have some of the most advanced tactics of their time?


Yes, Romans did used one of the most advanced tactics of their time. They also mostly used iron in their weapons and armor with steel swords.

Derkath of Morrowind wrote:Sun Tzu's art of war is still read to this day. My point is low tech doesn't equal outdated/inferior tactics.


Yes. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu]Art of war[/url] which probably isn't older that 200BC. I would assume Sun Tzu did known iron.

Derkath of Morrowind wrote:Edit: Yes, you're right about assassins training being more about than just killing with a dagger. But, my point still stands.


Anyone can kill sleeping person with dagger. Yet it rarely happens. Assassin in Chel needs to be capable of infiltrating military fortress. Not easy.
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Re: Slave armies

Postby Derkath of Morrowind » Sun May 26, 2013 2:37 pm

Khora2150 wrote:
Derkath of Morrowind wrote:I collect weapons, albeit it steel ones. Yes, they have different weight, but, I was referring to the assassins in that regard. Couldn't you simply give your slave soldiers/assassins steel or iron weapons and equipment? Also, the Romans to a certain extent used bronze, didn't they have some of the most advanced tactics of their time? Sun Tzu's art of war is still read to this day. My point is low tech doesn't equal outdated/inferior tactics.

Edit: Yes, you're right about assassins training being more about than just killing with a dagger. But, my point still stands.


One bit of trivia is looking after said weapons is totally different. When ancient egyptians fought against a peoples who used iron weapons, they noticed iron made for a far more formidable blade than bronze or copper. Of course, when the pillaged iron blades started to rust, they had no idea what to do. Bronze never rusts and requires far less care to be effective.

I would assume the main reason for Halmes not being used as specialists is because halmes have endless reasons to be mad at their drow masters.

Why would you train a halme, who is little more than a slave at best, to kill heavily guarded targets with a degree of proficiency when they might very well turn on you. Whats more, you cannot sense their aura, and will not be forewarned when they do betray you.


Commissars are what you do. If your officers amongst their ranks are Drow, and there are enough of them, your slaves will keep in line. Make them fear you more than the enemy and don't give them a chance to desert. In theory anyway, I have no such practical experience.

Edit: In regard to assassins, I'd imagine that a clan would train them to be fanatics to bypass the whole "Viva La Revolution!"
Last edited by Derkath of Morrowind on Sun May 26, 2013 2:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Slave armies

Postby Derkath of Morrowind » Sun May 26, 2013 2:40 pm

H'K'Maly wrote:
Derkath of Morrowind wrote:I collect weapons, albeit it steel ones. Yes, they have different weight, but, I was referring to the assassins in that regard. Couldn't you simply give your slave soldiers/assassins steel or iron weapons and equipment?


You obviously can, but unless they are trained to use them, their effectiveness will be low. Which is acceptable for soldiers used in big numbers, but not for assassins, even if you use them in big numbers (not speaking about fact that using assassins in big numbers is contraindication in itself).
/wiki/Sun_Tzu]Art of war[/url] which probably isn't older that 200BC. I would assume Sun Tzu did known iron.

Derkath of Morrowind wrote:Edit: Yes, you're right about assassins training being more about than just killing with a dagger. But, my point still stands.


Anyone can kill sleeping person with dagger. Yet it rarely happens. Assassin in Chel needs to be capable of infiltrating military fortress. Not easy.


Then train them! There is most defiantly not a lack of people to do so. Halms don't have Aura's, that automatically gives them a huge advantage in asassination. Back to the soldier part; again, find somebody to train them to use steel weapons.
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Re: Slave armies

Postby H'K'Maly » Sun May 26, 2013 3:14 pm

Derkath of Morrowind wrote:
H'K'Maly wrote:
Derkath of Morrowind wrote:I collect weapons, albeit it steel ones. Yes, they have different weight, but, I was referring to the assassins in that regard. Couldn't you simply give your slave soldiers/assassins steel or iron weapons and equipment?


You obviously can, but unless they are trained to use them, their effectiveness will be low. Which is acceptable for soldiers used in big numbers, but not for assassins, even if you use them in big numbers (not speaking about fact that using assassins in big numbers is contraindication in itself).
/wiki/Sun_Tzu]Art of war[/url] which probably isn't older that 200BC. I would assume Sun Tzu did known iron.

Derkath of Morrowind wrote:Edit: Yes, you're right about assassins training being more about than just killing with a dagger. But, my point still stands.


Anyone can kill sleeping person with dagger. Yet it rarely happens. Assassin in Chel needs to be capable of infiltrating military fortress. Not easy.


Then train them! There is most defiantly not a lack of people to do so. Halms don't have Aura's, that automatically gives them a huge advantage in asassination.


Advantage compared to who? I imagine most if not all drow assassins have useful sorceries (shadow sorcery in particular) which goblins lacks.

Derkath of Morrowind wrote:Back to the soldier part; again, find somebody to train them to use steel weapons.


H'K'Maly wrote:Val'Nal'sarkoth in particular already used and are still using goblin mercenary army. And Shargress have War Meat.
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Re: Slave armies

Postby Derkath of Morrowind » Sun May 26, 2013 3:25 pm

Goblins are shorter and of smaller stature, thus they are harder to detect. They also have no Aura and are cheaper to feed. I'm not saying their superior, I'm saying they have certain advantages that may make them more desirable.
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Re: Slave armies

Postby Doom Chinchilla » Sun May 26, 2013 9:13 pm

Derkath of Morrowind wrote:Goblins are shorter and of smaller stature, thus they are harder to detect. They also have no Aura and are cheaper to feed. I'm not saying their superior, I'm saying they have certain advantages that may make them more desirable.


As a matter of fact, goblins eat more than elves, at least while within a mana pool.

About the original question, drow slaves are cheap as dirt, so much that even very poor people who can't afford a draft animal can afford a drow slave. At this point, with food shortages and attacks on caravans, drow slaves are probably barely more expensive than the price of their flesh sold as meat.

So why bother bringing goblins slaves from the surface? You have to bring them from the surface, which makes them expensive, and they eat far more than a drow, are smaller and weaker, get sick easily and the lack of sunlight debilitates them, and their children are useless blind, weak Rifth Halmes. You can just bring apples or wheat instead, and buy drow slaves.

The War Meat were formed because before the Nidra'chaal War the economy was better, there weren't so many food shortages or so much infighting and destruction, and there were less drow slaves and cheaper food, so it was practical to bring slaves from the Overworld. Many of those slaves escaped, and joined the Sarghess, hence the War Meat.

The Nal'Sarkoth recruit and train their goblin soldiers in the Overworld, were they are cheap to feed and keep, and use them mostly to protect their outposts (close to the surface) and caravans (who travel to the surface), so it's probably cheaper to use goblins than to buy or recruit drows and take them to the surface.
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Re: Slave armies

Postby Derkath of Morrowind » Mon May 27, 2013 3:06 am

I'm sorry? The Goblins (Halms at least) eat more? That makes absolutely no sense, you'd think that Halms would consume less calories given their smaller stature. So unless the Drow have vastly superior matabalism, or you have a source on that claim, I'm not really buying that.
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Re: Slave armies

Postby Khora2150 » Mon May 27, 2013 4:03 am

Derkath of Morrowind wrote:I'm sorry? The Goblins (Halms at least) eat more? That makes absolutely no sense, you'd think that Halms would consume less calories given their smaller stature. So unless the Drow have vastly superior matabalism, or you have a source on that claim, I'm not really buying that.


http://wiki.drowtales.com/index.php/Drow

Case in point,

"The drowolath fae bodies tend to be lean, as they do not constantly accumulate fat for the hard times; instead, the body efficiently leeches the nutrients out of whatever food they eat over the course of a couple days. Drow, in general, do not eat a great deal, and the foods they do eat are generally not rich.

Further, mana plays a major role in the sustainment of the drow body; along with stopping the aging process, it also makes the drow need for food and sleep less pronounced as it takes over some of the physical maintenance those things provide. Nothing will affect a drowolath's condition quite as drastically as mana deprivation."

Check the wiki for more information :)
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Re: Slave armies

Postby Derkath of Morrowind » Mon May 27, 2013 4:51 am

Khora2150 wrote:
Derkath of Morrowind wrote:I'm sorry? The Goblins (Halms at least) eat more? That makes absolutely no sense, you'd think that Halms would consume less calories given their smaller stature. So unless the Drow have vastly superior matabalism, or you have a source on that claim, I'm not really buying that.


http://wiki.drowtales.com/index.php/Drow

Case in point,

"The drowolath fae bodies tend to be lean, as they do not constantly accumulate fat for the hard times; instead, the body efficiently leeches the nutrients out of whatever food they eat over the course of a couple days. Drow, in general, do not eat a great deal, and the foods they do eat are generally not rich.

Further, mana plays a major role in the sustainment of the drow body; along with stopping the aging process, it also makes the drow need for food and sleep less pronounced as it takes over some of the physical maintenance those things provide. Nothing will affect a drowolath's condition quite as drastically as mana deprivation."

Check the wiki for more information :)


Heh, you got me there. But the mana sound like a complete hand-wave.
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Re: Slave armies

Postby Khora2150 » Mon May 27, 2013 5:15 am

Think of it like the eldar compared to humans. Eldar are better in just about every way except numbers. Now imagine that the humans are the ones who are outnumbered, scattered and don't have firearms.

Plus this is drowtales, magic is an integral part of the story xD
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Re: Slave armies

Postby Derkath of Morrowind » Mon May 27, 2013 6:09 am

Except the Eldar have Slaanesh, are over emotional, have crippling hubris and xenobiology has been partially retconned, allowing for the possibility of Hybrids.

Your anology is well placed, but the Eldar are much better developed fluff-wise and have actual negative traits. The whole "Can't argue with elves," is negated with a healthy dose *BLAM!* and the Eldar are each individuals with their own views. Drowtales keeps the whole "Can't argue with elves," and makes Humans, not just weaker, but absolutely pathetic (see the chapter where Drow CHILDREN storm a castle and kill a king without breaking so much as a sweat). I don't mind Goblns being weaker, I'd just like them to be badass. But I digress, I've gone off topic.

I don't mind the magic, but if there were an actual reason given for why somebody hasn't managed give Auras to goblins, discovered an actual science to do with it (The warp from 40K is well explained, and thus, more believable) or the mana was simply toned down to Thieves World, I would be less bothered by it.
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Re: Slave armies

Postby Reva » Mon May 27, 2013 3:48 pm

Back to the topic of the assassin, assuming a clan would provide training and equipment, I wonder if some of that equipment wouldn't be constructed for mana users, for example, a really spiffy climbing equipment that is light and easy to use, but is mana-powered. Locks use mana signatures, so a hypothetical "master key" to fool the mechanism might involve masking the assassin's mana as someone else's. Lu only managed to investigate the Ninth Tower because she could use the elevator. Even the Fallen Legion crossbows have golem mechanisms, if I remember right. Everything in society is so mana-dependent, it's no wonder they scoff at goblins: almost all advanced tech is incompatible. And Sharess help the goblin if it got on a one-on-one with any competent drow while escaping or if the target turns on him/her, since Authority Means Asskicking, anyone worth assassinating has a high chance of being a ancient killing machine.

This worldsetting really has non-elves screwed on most scenarios. From what I evaluate, the Hermionnes are a threat mostly because the drows are self-destructive assholes. Even with their iron and numbers, if they got together and organized, with all the favorable factors the WS gives them, it's probable they would steamroll the Hermionnes. Even a few key clans together could handle a war pretty well. The big danger is because no one cares much about the surface and nobody wants to play nice.
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Re: Slave armies

Postby Derkath of Morrowind » Mon May 27, 2013 5:17 pm

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with your last statement. Why? Here's why:

1) Hermoinnes and their Conquered Halm brethren hold much more territory on the surface, and most of the major stratigic points, meaning that if you climb out of your cave, you're going to mowed down by 10,000 archers. So not only do the Goblins have most ground, but from established lore we can gleam that Drow fight in small elite units, as supposed to the Goblins that fight en mass with a tidal wave of troops and weapons, including archers, spearman and war machines that don't require mana. Your 15,000 strong, elite army is dust compared to my 500,000 strong, zealot army.

2) The overworld is far less saturated with mana, meaning that Drow will run out of energy pretty fast. The goblins? They have no such inhibitions. Their war machines don't rely on mana. Their troops don't need mana. Drow need mana. Ergo, drow probably loose that fight.

3) Let us not forget that Drow aren't used to the sun, nor the heat, nor the frost. Environmentally Goblins outclass most Drow in adaptability simply of virtue of being used to these environments, at less in the short term.

4) When the Hermoinne (it's not really a question of if) the rest of the Goblins, they will starve the Drow by depriving them of valuable resources from the overworld. That's not to say the Drow aren't self sufficient, but still.

5) Drow are chaotic, Goblins? Less so. If an inter-species war erupts, you can bet that they'll be some back stabbing on the Drow side, leading to fractures amongst them. Goblins? They're to afraid of the consequences of loosing to think about such acts. They'll fight to the death for their land. As a consequence, the trade empires of numerous clans would fall, plunging the Underdark into chaos.
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Re: Slave armies

Postby Dalvyserran » Mon May 27, 2013 5:31 pm

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is now, when the questions were answered early on.

Nal'sarkoth numbers hold a non-fae majority, meaning most of their numbers are goblin, dwarf, feral, and so on. They are deployed for a variety of tasks, from mercenary work to diplomacy.

Goblins are ill suited for underground combat because the breeding in the mist changes them too. Halme offspring in the mist are the blind Rift Halmes, and so on.

Some clans do not take goblins at all. Those that to who do and aren't Sarghress or Nal'sarkoth use mostly fae. On top of using magic a fae slave gives an added benefit of increasing the available mana.

Goblins make a tasty snack :D
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