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Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

To battle effectively battle Drow humans would need...

Medieval Tech: Just Listen to Sun Tzu
13
17%
18-19th century Tech: gunpowder weaponry > swords, magic, and golems
16
21%
WWI Tech: Just let lose the machine guns and watch the bodies pail up.
24
31%
WWII Tech: Death from above can be a frightening thing...
12
16%
Modern Day Tech: one nuke is all it takes
12
16%
 
Total votes : 77

Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby Jiharn » Sat May 12, 2012 3:24 am

Argron wrote:Also, their golems are as all terrain as it gets, moving on legs, so they could have far better mobility than almost every early tank, although at the cost of speed (we have seen tracked golems too, though). Although weather could rust them or make them malfunction, I doubt it would be such a big deal, a lot of it's parts use mana, so those are less mobile parts that may malfunction.


Actually, the ones with the legs would have lower mobility than tanks with treads. The fewer points of contact with the ground concentrates the weight on a smaller area and really ups the ground pressure, making them a lot more likely to get stuck in soft ground or mud or snow than something with treads, that evens all that weight out. The four-legged ones don't look like they can lift their legs up terribly high, either, so they don't have much advantage with "steps" or such. It's true that they'll have fewer moving parts to gunk up or need to replace, though. The fuel for the mana cores and all is important, but that falls under the "supply train" issue.

The "far from home" thing doesn't really apply with the Herms, though, on the supply length. They already control the conquered lands and get supported by those. Granted, food supplies for the drow could come from some of the colonies, which would be a lot closer than the home cities underground. Ammunition and mana cores still function under that limitation, however.

That's a point about possible insurrection by the halmes, though. I hadn't thought about it. But it probably wouldn't start until things were already going pretty badly for the Herms; otherwise the Herms would still have the reserves available to bitchslap them back down again.
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby Whispering shadows » Sat May 12, 2012 6:32 am

Also don't golums require alot of energy to use? (albeit replenishable) Wouldn't using golums above ground be exhausting? That's why I like to think of and treat golum units as like modern armored vehicle divisions. Gotta have fuel right? (I can totaly see balvs having tank divisions) also I did some math and say I kill 1000 drow in said plan right? Due to another debate the estimated population of the drow might be around 1 million say? I have effectively killed 1/10,000th of their population. Translated into human terms (we have about 7 billion) I have just killed 700,000 people in one battle. Further more say quain besieges a city of mine with 10,000 of her troops and say I have 80,000 troops at my disposal (yes I know about food I would force her to attack by starving her force and waiting till the verge of winter) +20,000 conscripts from city. Say she suffers 1000-2000 casueltys during the battle and I lose 10,000-20,000 (most of them from the conscripts if I can help it) of my own. We are batting even and due to the oncoming winter she must retreat back underground or risk starving to death. so when next year comes around I have more troops replaced then she has due to humans higher birth rate and with that a higher coming of age rate. Warfare is quite the percentages game isn't it?
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby MEK1724 » Sat May 12, 2012 8:59 am

Whispering shadows wrote:I have more troops replaced then she has due to humans higher birth rate and with that a higher coming of age rate.

Actually due to humanities death rate also being higher , its pretty much break even , as the soldiers you're using become old and die.(assuming the populations of both sides are at equilibrium) The birth rate does help even out the ratio of forces if a lot of soldiers die , say half from each side. However the new recruits the drow are replacing them with have a lot more time to have been trained , so the 30 year old drow cadets aren't comparable to the 15 year old humans (assuming they are trained ahead of time). So the drow have better quality troops , whilst the humans have worse quality but greater numbers of them , over what they had before . The superiority of the high birth rate then isn't entirely clear . *hmmm*
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby Argron » Sat May 12, 2012 11:50 am

@Jiharn: ok, I understand what you meant... But earlier tanks had thin tracks, due to very limited weight; it's unclear how heavy golems are, I doubt the Il'hardro golem we have seen might weight more than 4-5 tons, so if they used feet with increased surface it might be ok; it might lose mobility in soft ground (I think it's legs would sink in the ground, but the vehicle wouldn't get stuck in place, it would still be able to move at a reduced speed), and get stuck in soft wet ground, but otherwise it might be ok. A matter of personal oppinion I guess, since we can't know for certain.

@Whispering shadows: ok, out of the mana pool, golems spend more energy, but how much energy would, say, 10 war golems above ground use? the Il'hardro seem to have 15 or so in their island, a few more in the bridge, and a lot more in the other access that didn't want to get involved in the civil war. They could have as far as 40 big war golems, or more. That's a single clan, albeit a powerful one. How many cores do you think they have to mantain such numbers as a functioning force? because they must have planned for lengthy wars... they could have thousands of cores, and this is one clan alone. If the clans of one or more cities pooled their resources together (that's what we are assuming) and focused everything they had on the surface war, how many cores they could provide?
Chel alone could probably mantain a surprising amount of war golems above ground, maybe they could mantain 3 or 4 times that number if within their city's mana pool, but keeping them supplied isn't that hard at all considering their resources.
For golems powered by people... they could just add more slaves to the pit.

The population numbers go both ways, also in the middle ages population didn't grow as exponentially as it does in the modern world (poor countries are used to traditionally having lots of children, but with modern medicines few die, so the balance is explosive population growth), yes, they had lots of children, but they died early, and older people died younger, so although there was growth, it wasn't that easy to replenish their forces.
Also, if the Hermiones come from hundreds or even thousands of km away, that means they can only count on the troops here to wage war and mantain their conquests. They could levy very low quality troops from the conquered lands, hardly a powerful or trustworthy ally; but their main strength would be the Hermione troops and those are very limited, they don't have millions at their disposal, maybe a few hundred thousand at most, most likely several tenths of thousands, and only a part of these can be dedicated to new conquests as they have to garrison the conquered lands, so thousands of death on their side could stop the drow invasion dead on their tracks, any more and it would make them lose whole countries this far from home.
Also, the halme lands are affected by black death. Black death killed 1/3 of the population of Europe in less than 10 years or something like that, for some countries it might have killed half the population in 4 years... if the halme lands are in the middle of an epidemic, the depression in the economy and food production would be immense, so the Hermione armies may have little resources at their disposal, and of course there's the risk of the disease spreading to them.
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby Jiharn » Sat May 12, 2012 1:39 pm

Re: Golem mobility, yeah, it would be more or less ok under normal weather conditions. Only in rain or snow or wet areas would those pose a complication. It's just a logistical vulnerability, and one the drow probably haven't dealt with before in regards to their golems. Wars aren't lost just from one thing, but a lot of things that add up; mobility is an important one of those. It's something that can have a long-term effect, such as if rain prevents reinforcements from arriving in time for a battle and such. Of course, that's also very little issue at all if they're deployed defensively at fortifications. ;) (Do the drow even have those above ground, though?)

Disease is a really important point I never thought about. There has been more than one kind of plague in the world, so we don't really have to require the actual bubonic plague. But disease has been a bane to armies, especially long ones, throughout history. We didn't really get that nailed down until penicillin. The drow, by contrast, are more or less immune to disease. Disease is something that almost never gets brought up in fantasy armies, so it might be a non-starter here, but there's always that possibility.

I wonder whether the Herms have actually levied any native Halme forces, and how much? Probably from those lands they ensnared with the "corruption" route. The Halme soldiers wouldn't be nearly as effective or psychologically sturdy against the drow, of course, but in a cynical scenario they could absorb the first blows as fodder, in place for a more able but harder-to-replace Herm soldier.

(It isn't bad that part of me thinks "hermaphrodite" whenever I shorten "Hermionne" to "Herm", is it? I mean, same root word, right?)
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby Doom Chinchilla » Sat May 12, 2012 2:50 pm

I have been thinking about this: If the human are as numerous as the Hermionnes, and the drow so few as they are in the current setting, XIX level of tech may be enough.

The reason is, the drow wouldn´t probably be able to use all their golem tech on the surface, due to the abusive spending of mana they require; drow fighting in their own cities have access to a mana pool to feed their machines, but up there they rely entirely on their own auras, and they probably wouldn´t be able to use their best weapons for long.

Large amounts of rifles, pistols and grenades would be enough to force them keep their shields up, spending their mana all the time. The drow would have the advantage in a guerrilla style fight, but with the help of dogs (who could easily be trained to detect the presence of drows in humans settlements) and numbers, humans may be able to balance that.
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby Whispering shadows » Sat May 12, 2012 6:45 pm

I truely did forget about disease....as for the troop thing I would use your suggestion and use the native halme's as cannon fodder so that I could save my comparatively better hermoine troops for later. Sadly anyway I cut it in the end alot of halme's and hermiones are gonna die regardless of which strategy I use or how successful I am. (such is the downside of having superior numbers but inferior quality). Meh and as for my cold hearted numbers games my own men would probebly string me up even if we won. The plan truely is a nightmare scenario for a force assaulting a city as much as it is for the defenders.
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby theobserver » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:51 am

It's been a long time since I posted...

Anyway, I just want to point out a few things.

The first is something called the Lanchester's Laws. Basically, some English dude decided to invent a way to predict the casualties and victors of battles, and he came up with this.

In medieval/ancient warfare, the offensive capability of a military force is its number of troops times the offensive ability of each soldier. This kind of warfare follows Lanchester's Linear Law. Let A be the number of troops and a be the offensive ability of each soldier. The total offensive capability will be:

Total= Aa

In modern warfare, where aimed fire can attack multiple targets at a distance and attacks can come from multiple directions, the rate of attrition now only depends on the number of weapons firing. In this case, Lanchester's Linear Law no longer applies, and Lanchestor's Square Law is used. Lanchestor, the English dude who invented these equations, determined that the power of such a force is proportional not to the number of units it has, but to the square of the number of units. Let A be the number of troops and a be the offensive ability of each soldier. Total offensive capability will be:

Total= (A^2)a

Derived from these equations, the attrition rate of medieval battles will be:

Aa=-B and Bb= -A

where A is the number of troops on the first side, a is the offensive ability of each troop, B is the number of troops on the second side and b is the offensive capability of each troop. In this case, the survivors of the winning side would simply be the difference between the Total offensive capability of each side divided by the offensive ability of each troop on the winning side. For example, let A= 2000, a=2, B=3000, b=1, hence, the survivors for the winning side (The A side) is:

Total A - Total B= 2000*2 - 3000*1= 1000

Total A= Aa

1000= A(2)

A= 500 (The survivors for the winning, A, side)

And thus, the casualties are: 2000-500= 1500 casualties.

Also derived from these equations, the attrition rate for modern battles will be:

dA/dt= -Bb

and

dB/dt= -Aa

where dA/dt represents the change in the number of soldiers on side A in a particular instant of time, and the same applies for dB/dt.

In order to calculate the probable final survivors (the survivors at the end of the battle), you simply have to use the original Lanchester's Square Law equation and subtract the total offensive capability of both sides. Let A=2000, a=2, B=500, a=8. Because the formula for total capability is Total= (A^2)a, the survivors are:

Total A - Total B= (2000^2)2 - (500^2)8= 4000000*2 - 250000*8= 6000000

Total A= (A^2)a

6000000= (A^2)2

A^2=3000000

A= 1732 (The survivors for the winning, A, side)

And thus, the casualties are: 2000-1732= 268 casualties.

In relation to this discussion, these equations can be easily applied to several scenarios. First off, the Drow of Drowtales, no matter how impressive their tech, ultimately aren't capable of the sheer range, accuracy, and destructiveness of anything WW1 or onward. A Machinegun fires at several hundreds of rounds per minute and can hit targets one and a half kilometers away. A crossbow can barely reach 100 meters, and a Golem's cannon (one of the Val Ilhardo's) can't seem to fire past a single river, so they're range is probably limited to 500 meters tops. This just has no comparison to WW1 direct fire artillery, which can slam at targets accurately at over two kilometers away, not to mention indirect artillery. Therefore, the Drow's forces will still obey Lanchester's Linear Law in terms of their total offensive capability. Now, let's say A is the number of Drow, a is each Drow's offensive ability, B is the number of humans and b is each human's offensive ability.

The total offensive capability of the Drow's force will always be: Total= Aa

While the human's offensive capability will depend on the tech level. If it is medieval or ancient, it's Total= Bb, if it's modern, it's Total= (B^2)b.

Now, to illustrate the difference between each scenario, let A= 2000, a= 10, B= 2000, b=1. In other words, let's say one Drow can kill 10 humans before going down.

In medieval times, the drow win by a large margin. Total A= 20000 and Total B= 2000, the Drow have 18000 more units of offensive capability than the humans.

In WW1 type of tech, the humans win by an insane margin so damn large it's not even funny. Total A= 20000 and Total B= 4000000. In words, Total A is equals to two hundred thousand while Total B is equals to four million. The humans have 3800000 (Three million eight hundred thousand) more units of offensive capability than the Drow. So even if a Drow has ten times more experience and skill than a single human, the humans will murder nearly all of them before they can even use that skill.

Now what if the tech used by the humans is not medieval nor modern? Somewhere in the middle, like let's say 18th century technology (Napoleonic Era)? There are some technologies (grapeshot, for example) that allow attacking multiple targets at once, but the human footsoldiers will still be limited to attacking one person at a time (Assuming the musket ball even hits), and the range of the weapons are still limited. In this case, instead of using total number of soldiers, we have to use the ratio between artillery weapons and normal infantry, then use the Lanchester's square law. Let's say that there is one artillery battery (Plus Minus 4 Field Guns) per 500 soldiers. Assuming B is still equals to 2000, the ratio between artillery and soldiers is 1:4. Assuming we divide the army into two units each with a single artillery battery, each of those four units will have their offensive ability squared, thus the total offensive capability of the human army would be the sum of those four units offensive ability. Hence, assuming we divide both the Drow and Human army into four units, each with 500 soldiers:

Total A= (4 units)10= 40 units= 20000

Total B= (4 units^2)1= 16 units= 80000

The humans in this case still outgun the Drow by 60000 units of offensive capability, but you can see the battle being far more balanced. The ratio between artillery batteries and soldiers in this case is very important. If the ratio is 1:2, the human army would have lost by 16000 units. If it were 1:3, it would be something else.

However, these equations only apply to battles of attrition with no maneuver being conducted whatsoever. This is obviously unrealistic, but it gives a handy rule of thumb for anyone trying the balance things out between the humans and the Drow. Also, be aware that anything that causes deviation from the Lanchester Laws are called Force Multipliers. There are a lot of Force Multipliers, including morale, deception, coordination, etc. In real life, the Lanchester Laws are practically useless, because modern armies do not spread out and conduct battles of attrition, rather they focus on specific points for breakthrough, and coordinate their attacks. There are so many ways to criticize the Lanchestor Laws (see Col. Trevor N. Dupuy's works for further criticism of the Lanchestor Laws. Dupuy favored empirical analyses of historical battles, not numerical analyses).
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby Derkath of Morrowind » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:38 pm

My solution (for humans to win): Nuke'em. Better yet, if you have the tech, perform exterminatus.

Now remember kids, the EMPRAH protects.
Last edited by Derkath of Morrowind on Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby Kaiser » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:25 am

I've always thought that humans could win with Medieval Tech, they'd just have to outnumber the Drow to an absurd degree. But hey, if you have the numbers Soviet style tactics would probably be quite effective.
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby ShinjiGAR » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:50 am

Kaiser wrote:I've always thought that humans could win with Medieval Tech, they'd just have to outnumber the Drow to an absurd degree. But hey, if you have the numbers Soviet style tactics would probably be quite effective.


If fantasy novels have taught me anything, it's that mortal creatures will always out-reproduce ageless creatures. Always. That might be how it works here, too
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby Argron » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:12 am

You all assume drow would be at a huge numerical disadvantage, and that might not be true.
*First, both drow males and females fight, while human females in the era the drowtales human kingdoms are dont fight (we have only seen one human female warrior, Vaelia, and she was treated as dirt by her male counterparts).
*Second, drow only have to face 1 human country at a time; not only do human countries lack unity, they are far away from each other and probably have little in the way of formal ties, let alone being coordinated; and of course, they lack any sort of proper roads to travel fast through carrying the kind of heavy equipment they will need against the superior technology of drow armies.
*Third, the drow are supported by slavery, while human armies need like 10 guys in the rearguard working for each soldier just so they dont starve, drow can send more of their population on the attack, and the more humans they capture, the more they can support (they must be quite good at keeping slaves in check too, they have been doing it for at least 1000 years; they also domesticated all kinds of insane monsters: dragons, giant spiders, tigers, giant wolves, ...).
*And 4th ... they can sustain more casualties, not only a greater percentage of their population are warriors, they actually have an overpopulation problem, so each casualty they suffer makes their situation better, not worse. If they suffer too many casualties after causing extensive damage, they can fall back to the underworld where humans would be at an extreme disadvantage if they followed, and regroup for a few years. Also, the warriors are sort of a privileged caste, so for each one that is lost, 5 rush in to replace him/her, and need little training to be better warrior than a human (stronger physique than a human, better equipment, more useful toys, way better command structures and military tactics than humans).
On the other side, humans need experienced and hardened warriors just to fight the kind of terrific things drow would send to battle against them (most conscripted rabble would flee at the sight of the fist dragon or golem), and would be hard pressed to support big armies, so each loss would take a lot of time and money to replace.

Only an empire like the Hermiones would be able to force some unity into the human kingdoms, and even them would have a monumental logistical problem and be unable to keep big armies on the field against drow.
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby Kaiser » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:07 pm

Soviet style tactics would include:
Making your fighters more afraid of you than the enemy.
Conscripting everyone (women and children included) to fight.
Instilling an all-encompassing hatred of the enemy into your fighters so much so that they will fight to the bitter end rather than surrender.
Using partisans to harass the enemy.
Overrunning the enemy when you have numerical superiority and ambushing the enemy when you are outnumbered.

There are many instances in history where the victory has been achieved over a technologically and martially superior opponent. This type of situation would require an Empire but it is possible for the humans to achieve victory.
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby Whizzard » Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:56 pm

I think English Longbowmen supporting the infantry would be sufficient enough. After all, most drow tech is meant for CQC in caves. Sure, mana shields and golems, yeah. But if you have an army of ten thousand men and 2000 of those are archers and every archer has 30 arrows, you can let loose 30 volleys of 2000 arrows and a few volleys per minute means pretty severe rain that day.

French knights lost many battles to some farmers with some strings attached to sticks.

"Our arrows will blot out the sun!"

And we are talking about the surface, halme wouldn't go underground to face some drows in tight quarters, oh no, they'd only engage on open fields with some room to play flanking and surrounding the smaller force of drows. Not a lot of mana pools to go around. How long can you hold that shield up? How many feet can your golem walk if it's pilot sweats mana while trying to operate it undergound in one of the largest mana pools available? How many fireballs can you throw? How many rock walls can you create? Ariel, though a child, struggled to throw few mana bolts and already felt tired. Adult can probably throw a lot more. But how many times you can get that shield up before enemy runs out of arrows? Oh crap, a few shields short before they ran out of arrows, now i have an arrow in the knee and my adventuring days are over. Time to become a guard somewhere... Yush, I stopped all 30 volleys! But now I'm too pooped to fight that guy on a high horse that's charging towards me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rTHQzkEweY
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby Niliger » Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:48 pm

I've read entire subject, and i have few things to add.

First. Why do we consider only OUR technology path? There were plenty of inventions that were simply lost in history. Many inventors didn't had enough support for their plans. For example, Tesla. Or Da Vinci. Lots of their projects remaind only on paper, because they couldn't raise enought money or find anyone to support them. And speaking of Tesla - maybe i simply didn't read all the archives, but i didn't noticed ANY drow using anything even remotly close to lightning, or electricity, which could be a deadly weapon against drow-piloted golems (they are all metal, right?)

Another important thing - logistics! As mentioned before, Halmes/Hermionnes won't have any troubles with it, but drows will have if they want to act offensive. They will have to bring mana cores, ammunition etc. even food, if humans start to burn their own farms when retreating. And so, drows must bring their own food. That's why Napoleon and Hitler fall against Russia.

Next thing. Yes, the drows have more time to train, than humans. But there is a certain line, that any living thing can't cross! You can't be faster than certain speed,, for example. Here go the martial arts. But every expert can tell, that all the martial arts are just teaching your body how to react in specific situations. Drows can train their body in this way to the level beyond human reach. How to overcome this? Train in the martial art, that teaches you how to improvise. And here comes Ziranmen - little known eastern martial art, that applies to this theory AND was proven extremly effective in battle because it was impossible to predict, how the opponent will attack.

Another thing. Chemistry and alchemy. As mentioned before, drugged berserks can be fearsome warriors. Whant if humans learn, how to make not only the painkillers, but also the drugs that are sharpening their sences? Or shortening thier reaction time? This can be really useful in battle. They can also use molotov's coctails and greek fire against golems (metal will heat etc. Tactic useful even against tanks). Yes, this is risky, yes, some drows have fire affinity. But this is the best they have got.

Next, the commanders. This is a matter of an individual person. Drow can be the worst commander ever, when halme can be strategy genius. But, there is one thing important about drows. Their commanders in 95% are women! And it should be easy to pick off the high ranked commander from the crowd (better armor, specific behavior, or, for example, sharen crowns). And the most efficient way to deal with the organized army is to put the commander down. So simply give this command to human shooters - count to two. "One" - you shoot the women standing out from the crowd, "two" - you shoot who you like.

Next, In the event on drow invasion, human soldiers will stand their ground. They aren't cowards, And they will defend their own homes! The place, where their ancestors lived and died for centuries! Add the religious anti-fae fanatism of Hermionnes that propably is already spreading between conquered halme city-states, and we have an army of fanatic, battle-hardened veterans and twice as much volounteers defending their homes. With good commander and good supply lines, this mix has won many battles in our history, even against opponent larger in numbers and with better technology.

And last thing about magic. Drows recieve talents such as empathy and high arts at birth, right? So, MAYBE, with modern level of biotechnology, humans could develop some kind of gene therapy, that will grant them access to mana arts, "stealing" it from their opponents? Bot it's just a theory, and I need to find more knowlege about mana and drow physiology.

Sorry if i used some bad english. It isn't my first language.
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