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Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

To battle effectively battle Drow humans would need...

Medieval Tech: Just Listen to Sun Tzu
13
17%
18-19th century Tech: gunpowder weaponry > swords, magic, and golems
16
21%
WWI Tech: Just let lose the machine guns and watch the bodies pail up.
24
31%
WWII Tech: Death from above can be a frightening thing...
12
16%
Modern Day Tech: one nuke is all it takes
12
16%
 
Total votes : 77

Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby MEK1724 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:45 am

Whizzard wrote:But how many times you can get that shield up before enemy runs out of arrows? Oh crap, a few shields short before they ran out of arrows, now i have an arrow in the knee and my adventuring days are over. Time to become a guard somewhere... Yush, I stopped all 30 volleys! But now I'm too pooped to fight that guy on a high horse that's charging towards me...

Armour can stop arrows . Highland raiders are literally encased in the stuff . Put those ones in the front line and they'll block all straight on aimed shots at anyone behind them. Arcs will work but will be inaccurate , and weaker , and thus won't cause heavy casualties , even among the less well armed in the back rows .
French knights lost many battles to some farmers with some strings attached to sticks.

Perhaps , however no account I have read ascribes their effectiveness to being able to pierce heavy armour (or at least not those in the front rows, from the front) .
you shoot the women standing out from the crowd

They won't be out in front too often , thus not very easy to see or shoot at .
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby Dice Warwick » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:44 am

From what I can see, The Fea have the advantage do two their mana, and it would take WW1 style weapon to properly counter what they can do, but by that point they would have battle golems that can resist bullets. The goblins would easily be decimated by the fae, and anything they can make, the fae/Drow would get to first, and use on them. Unless the Drow stayed underground until Humans had more modern weapons, we humans would be at a disadvantage, as what we can make they can use, but what they can make we cannot, advantage them.
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby SteelOsprei » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:15 am

Just a note, according to Kau, a single person golem likely wouldn't even make it to the surface before the pilot passed out from the mana drain (http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=9603). I realize they could transport them using other methods, but it seems like they would be more trouble than they were worth in any drawn out conflict, especially since they could never be used for very long.
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby PoignardAzur » Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:46 pm

MEK1724 wrote:Armour can stop arrows.

Not that much. Armor-piercing arrows are the number one reason French continued getting their ass kicked for so long during the Hundred Years' war.
(okay, they're not, but let's pretend they are for a moment)

For the main question, my answer would be : we don't have enough data to answer the main question.
Plus, this question should be split in two (or three) : what would the humans need to be realistically able to beat the drows, what they would need to be realistically sure to beat them, and what they would need narratively.

To the third question, the answer is simple : they need a Cesar, a Napoleon, a Hannibal, a George Washington (you tell me when you get it), a General Tarquin, an Admiral Thrawn, anyway, someone who's both charismatic and clever enough to become the antagonist of the story. Obviously, even then they're doomed to fail on the long term (because, you know, Drowtales), but that's the best they could achieve on a narrative POV.

Now, if we have a realistic POV ? They could kick the elves' collective sorry asses with their current technology, but even with nukes and armor piercing bullets, the victory wouldn't be guaranteed.

If I were to imagine an "ideal" way for the Hermiones to beat the elves, I say they'd ally with the Halmes (so, no rebellion) against the evil drows, block the main corridors between the underworld and the surface (the ones large enough to let an army pass), post a big enough force a the top of the Nidavellir (the big cliff that surrounds the misty crater) : it would ensure them that no army could pass without fighting humans with both superior numbers and positions. Then they'd try to win by attrition : pay some Blacksuns or whoever to burn underground farms, then take out the raider's outposts and colonies one by one. Assuming they don't screw up big time and keep their positions, the drows start to starve until they're week enough for the Hermiones to launch a big expedition and purge what remains of them.

If I were to imagine an "ideal" way for the elves to beat the Hermiones, I would say that they win battle after battle thanks to superior firepower and tactics, and we're done here :D

My point is, there's a lot of way a human-elve war could go, and a lot of factors that might influence it. But in the end, I think the main factor is the leadership, and then the numbers. The quality of the soldiers doesn't really count, cf WW-II. For example, the French army during the Hundred Years' war was hardly superior in numbers to what we know of the Sarghress troops. Louis XIV's army ? They'd totally crush them. Unless one of the following factor comes into play : black plague, the Nidra'chaals, the faulty seeds, Jaladarya's bacteriological weapon, a deus ex machina, the drow Civil War becoming worse, the drow Cibil War stopping, the mutations that seem to affect the drows, Quain'tana being awesome, Ariel being awesome, Ariel's shapeshifter abilities, Syphile's ultimate form boss fight, Saxton Hale, and so on.
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby MEK1724 » Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:17 pm

PoignardAzur wrote:Not that much.

That is not what period sources say , at least for the well armed people being attacked from the front . Assuming the drow have approximately renaissance level armour production techniques .
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby SteelOsprei » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:23 pm

About the armor vs. arrows question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Xp56uVyxs
make of it what you will.

edit: actually this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCE40J93m5c) may be a bit more accurate armor, but there's also this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCywaYlQxWE).
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby MEK1724 » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:04 am

SteelOsprei wrote:About the armor vs. arrows question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Xp56uVyxs
make of it what you will.

edit: actually this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCE40J93m5c) may be a bit more accurate armor, but there's also this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCywaYlQxWE).

I have one of those too , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk . Some forms of iron , even in the present , are worse then the best stuff armourers could get .
Also an account by a 16th century commander on its strengths and weaknesses of the bowe and crossbowe .
Forqeveaux , 1589 Translation of his Instructions sur le faict de la Guerre extraictes des livres de Polybe, Frontin, Vegèce, Cornazan, Machiavelle wrote:Amongft other weapons leaft accuffomed, are the Bowe and the Croffebowe, which are two weapons that may do very good feruice against vnarmed men, or thofe that are ill armed, fpecially in wet weather, when the Harquebufier lofeth his feafon. And were it fo that the archers and croffebow men could carry about them their prouifion for their bowes and crossebowes, as eafily as y Harquebufiers may do theirs for their Harquebuffes I would commend them before the Harquebuffe, as well for their readineffe in fhooting, which is mutch more quicker, as alfo for the fureneffe of their fhot, which is almost never in vayne. And although the Harquebufier may fhoote further, notwithftanding the Archer and Croffebow man will kill a C, or CC, pafes off, afwell as the Harquebufier: and fometime the harneffe, except it be the better, can not hold out: and the vttermoft the remedy is that they fhould be brought as neere before they do fhoote as poffibly they may, and if it were fo handled, there would be more flaine by their fhot, then by twice as many Harquebufiers, and this I will prooue by one Croffebow man that was in Thurin, when as the Lord Marfhall of Annibault was Gouernour there, who, as I haue vnderftood, in fiue or fixe fkirmifhes, did kill and hurt more of our enemyes, then fiue or fixe of the beft Harquebufiers did, during the whole time of the fiege.


Also Geoffrey le baker has accounts of well armed cavalry human shielding others with their armour ,


You can view another version , not limited by google books , here (note that some worlds are written "ye olde'" like in there).
So no , arrows can't pierce better quality armour . Although they may defeat low quality from up close , or if one hits someone in the back (the back generally being less armoured then the front) .
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby Shgon Dunstan » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:55 am

"Fight"? About the same level the humans are at in story, maybe a bit higher.

"Reliably win"? I'd say about the 18th century.

"LOL-win"? WW1 level, and onward.

Golems, though broken Vs a medieval army, are a near purely defensive weapon for the Drow in a war against the overworld, as they just don't work for all that long in the Mana poor overworld, to say nothing about their legs, though great for getting around in the rocky underworld, just aren't designed for the overworld ether.

Mana shields might help Vs guns, but they can't keep them up forever. "Years worth of training"..... To be honest, I've never seen a whole lot of sign of the masterful skill this is supposed to be giving even the lest of them. Though.... Being as your average lifespan of a Drow commoner is 100-200 years... There's probably a reason for that. ^^;

Their a bit bigger, and.... "One would think" a bit stronger because of that, but guns render that not very relevant, and even for a medieval army it just means the humans need to be sure to out number them. As for the Mana arts.... I might be forgetting some feats, but I don't remember to many feats of stuff like Mana bolts being used at the range of even an arrow barrage, much less some of the other stuff we're talking about here. Not to be over looked, but not something that can't just be drowned in bodies, or matched with guns.

Biggest problem in universe is "Mana-Tech marches on", in that who knows what the Drow would have by the time the humans invent the gun, though... Personally, I wouldn't be as afraid of "Mana-guns"(what with Mana-cannons being little more then "cannons, just with added Mana"), as I would be of "precharged Mana-shields" or the like. We have seen two shield experts work together to deflect a cannonball, but think, the Drow have already made a Mana battery small enough to make golem power armor, but what if instead of powering a golem, they just used that Mana to power a shield?
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby Evident-Disaster » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:18 am

Hey guys, I'm just asking here, no need to confirm anything. But in terms of 21st century military technology, compared to the drows of the current age, would they have any hope in the nether of withstanding the overall might of the world's military technology? If not then I wonder, would the drow clans try reach a compromise? Or would pride drive them to their deaths?
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby JohnGB0083 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:15 am

Evident-Disaster wrote:Hey guys, I'm just asking here, no need to confirm anything. But in terms of 21st century military technology, compared to the drows of the current age, would they have any hope in the nether of withstanding the overall might of the world's military technology? If not then I wonder, would the drow clans try reach a compromise? Or would pride drive them to their deaths?


Remember, the drow refer to humans as goblins, a generic name they give to all non-fae, and view as inferior. If the humans of "Drow tales" were to somehow surpass the drow and reach 21st century equivalent technology, some Drow might not be so quick to accept that they've been passed up and oppose any equal treatment of humans. While others would probably be curious and fascinated by their human counter-parts, technology and what they were able to accomplished once given the chance to grow with threat of being raided. Some Drow would probably also be interested in human medical science as means of reducing their own infant mortally rate. Some would probably just want to tolerate closer ties as means getting access to human technology in hopes they might eventually be to develop it themselves, in order to allow them to war with the humans on a more even playing field.

The same could be for the humans in regards to the drow. Some would be open to closer ties and cultural exchange. Some human scientist would probably be thrilled to possibly having the chance to learn and possible conduct friendly research of the Drow's "mysterious" energy source, mana. If they could figure out a way to allow humans to produced and make use of mana, would a big boon for both races. The humans interested, if they're civilization is relying heavily on fossil fuels, would want to use mana as new energy source and If successful, the Drow wouldn't have to worry too much about mana-depravation.

However, there would also be humans who may remember the stories of how the Drow once raided and terrorize humans. They might just see them as nothing more than black devils that need to go back to hell pit the crawled out of, by force if necessary. They may even be a group that would only want to turn the drow, secretly if possible, into genetic guinea pigs in effort to: to create weapons and defenses against effects of mana. Such as a virus that could strip the drow of their longevity and bring aging rate up to more human levels. As while as finding a way of splicing the drow's ability to manipulate mana into humans, or creating or finding similar energy sources that humans could learn to manipulate as the drow manipulate mana.

Ultimately, 21st century equivalent humans and Drow, interact would depending greatly on the actions and decisions of their leaders. Both sides would need act with caution if they wished to avoid all out war, with the humans leaders being the first to offer a friendly hand, and the Drow would need the humbleness to take it. However, if the Drow underestimate the humans technology, or the humans recognize and decide to desperately their superiority, relations between the two race would be disastrous for decade, or in drow's care, whole century.
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby Evident-Disaster » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:24 am

Okay thanks for answering that. I'm trying to write a fanfic which is also a crossover, with Stargate at the moment I've sort of hit a wall. But I'm thinking about the Drow/Human relations if those from Earth ended up in the Drowtales world. It would be interesting.

Humans on a remote alien city built around the time before the fall of the Drow civilization on the surface, and so I thought that having tens of thousands of humans trying to interact with the Drow of Chel.
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby TheJackinati275 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:54 am

I hope this wont incite another war but...

The Day the B-2 Stealth Bomber is designed = The Fall of Drow Civilization as we know it

If the Drow even think of popping their heads out onto the surface, the B-2 Will zap out from no where and give the Drow a first hand flavour of Shock-and-awe with Napalm flying...

And if they send too large a force to be dealt with via conventional means... well the B-2 Stealth bomber can be loaded with 16 1.2 Megaton Nuclear bombs.

What about Mana Shields?

A-10 Thunderbird, send her out to a mana-shielded target and watch as she fires hundreds of 30mm DU sabot rounds right into the Mana Shield and watch as the enemy become swiss cheese

Home Defense agaist Foot Drow Troopers?

Don't fear fellow humans, put a 45.ACP round into the Armoured Drow and watch as the impact floors them, or if your a blood thirsty bastard, load in some 7.62x51mm NATO rounds and put them in center mass and bam, your Drow problem is no more...

Though to be perfectly honest and not sarcastic... i think that Late-medieval/Early Renaissance Tech is what Humanity needs to have a fair Advantage, because they lose all their golems and Balvakharra Power Armour as soon as they rise to the surface, thus it esentially becomes a battle of Platemail against Platemail and Longsword against Longsword... although i havent seen the Drow use Halberd Techniques in the Comic and that could make all the difference
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby Kaiser » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:12 pm

Longbows would definitely even the odds especially if used in mass, but even now humans have two options.

A: Overwhelming numbers with combined arms tactics.

B: Guerrilla warfare

Both have been proven successful against better equipped and better trained armies before and surface fighting places limits on how much magic an elven force can use.
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby ThatGuyThisGuy » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:08 am

TheJackinati275 wrote:I hope this wont incite another war but...

The Day the B-2 Stealth Bomber is designed = The Fall of Drow Civilization as we know it

If the Drow even think of popping their heads out onto the surface, the B-2 Will zap out from no where and give the Drow a first hand flavour of Shock-and-awe with Napalm flying...

And if they send too large a force to be dealt with via conventional means... well the B-2 Stealth bomber can be loaded with 16 1.2 Megaton Nuclear bombs.

What about Mana Shields?

A-10 Thunderbird, send her out to a mana-shielded target and watch as she fires hundreds of 30mm DU sabot rounds right into the Mana Shield and watch as the enemy become swiss cheese

Home Defense agaist Foot Drow Troopers?

Don't fear fellow humans, put a 45.ACP round into the Armoured Drow and watch as the impact floors them, or if your a blood thirsty bastard, load in some 7.62x51mm NATO rounds and put them in center mass and bam, your Drow problem is no more...

Though to be perfectly honest and not sarcastic... i think that Late-medieval/Early Renaissance Tech is what Humanity needs to have a fair Advantage, because they lose all their golems and Balvakharra Power Armour as soon as they rise to the surface, thus it esentially becomes a battle of Platemail against Platemail and Longsword against Longsword... although i havent seen the Drow use Halberd Techniques in the Comic and that could make all the difference


Wouldn't a regular bomber be just as useful since the drow lack radar especially since a regular bomber such as a b-52 can carry a larger payload and the same could be said for the thunderbolt as something like a ac-130 can carry more and bigger guns with better maneuverability since it doesn't need to go in the direction of where the gun is pointed also anything shot by GAU-8 would not be swiss cheese it would be hamburger same for the guns on the ac-130. Also artillery such as howitzers and rocket launchers would be just as useful as a a-10 would be in most situations they would likely encounter where such things would be needed. Things like heavy machine guns and recoiless rifles would also be useful.

Also you(and everyone else in this thread) forgot to suggest the use of gratuitous amounts of white phosphorous and nerve gas as even though they have counters those counters such as wind artists are rare and need to be skilled to effectively neutralize those threats without being killed and sealed full body gear not just an air filter mask needs to be worn to completely protect against nerve gas. Crunch switch fused rocket launcher rounds which are rockets that are designed to pierce a certain distance into a materiel before exploding would be exceedingly useful against summons along with any other delayed detonation ammunition.
Last edited by ThatGuyThisGuy on Sun Nov 30, 2014 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Drowtales world Elves vs. Humans with...

Postby TheJackinati275 » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:15 pm

Wouldn't a regular bomber be just as useful since the drow lack radar especially since a regular bomber such as a b-52 can carry a larger payload and the same could be said for the thunderbolt as something like a ac-130 can carry more and bigger guns with better maneuverability since it doesn't need to go in the direction of where the gun is pointed also anything shot by GAU-8 would not be swiss cheese it would be hamburger same for the guns on the ac-130. Also artillery such as howitzers would be just as useful as a a-10 would be in most situations they would likely encounter. Things like heavy machine guns would also be useful.

Also you(and everyone else in this thread) forgot to suggest the use of gratuitous amounts of white phosphorous and nerve gas as even though they have counters those counters such as wind artists are rare and need to be skilled to effectively neutralize those threats without being killed and sealed full body gear not just an air filter mask needs to be worn to completely protect against nerve gas. Crunch switch fused rocket launcher rounds which are rockets that are designed to pierce a certain distance into a materiel before exploding would be exceedingly useful against summons along with any other delayed detonation ammunition.


I thought about suggesting Chemical agents, but the Sarghress Highland Raiders have specially designed gas-masks, also they might use Wind magic to disperse the chemical agent, As to White phosphorous, i was going to suggest it but felt that Napalm was much more awesome a flammable weapon to list down, although White Phosphorous creates hazordous fumes as well as stay hot for a long period of time.

Nerve gasses (such as Sarin) i agree with you, unless your in a fully enclosed suit, you will be asphyxiating and on the ground faster than you can say it in words (depending on the Nerve Gas that is)

How About Fuel Air Explosives for Ground targets, and Thermabaric bombs for roasting your Cave-Dwelling Drow foes! ;)

Need i say more, Them Drows are Dead as soon as they fuck with the Modern Man! (Hoorah)

and this for the Funniness ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4nknAzQPHE
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