Sharptooth wrote:So if you're Sharen it would be ok to have an affair with a worthy commoner as long as you raised them to Val status. Alright. Is that an approved of process because technically most Val clans became that way due to proving themselves worthy of being a ruling house? Because from what Suntiger was saying as far as I could tell Sharen don't approve of relationships with commoners. Yeah they stick a fancy name on their twin sisters but everybody knows its bullshit except in the most extreme cases. And you wouldn't want bullshit bloodlines in your children. Though Sabrror if hes not a cousin might be one of those extreme cases. That's why given his example I was wondering if maybe there was a way to Sharenize Val from other clans.
That actually makes me wonder what the average Sharen opinion about having an affair with a protector twin would be.
For Sharen and commoners, that would depend on what kind of relationship they wanted to have.
They probably don't have any problems with taking a commoner lover, even if the snootier Sharen might consider that 'slumming'.
If a noble male wanted to have children with a commoner female, that probably wouldn't raise any fuss either. Any children will still be commoners.
He might get some flak if it's a commoner from the Sarghress section and not their own section though.
If a noble Sharen female wanted to have children with a commoner male, well, she might lower her social status in the eyes of her peers unless the male has something that would be advantageous to the Sharen (genes, skills or connections). However, if she's willing to take the flak for getting kids from a commoner there's no problem. Well, unless her De'vess demands otherwise.
If a Vel* male wanted to have kids with a commoner... Eh, probably allowed as long as he also did his duty to provide his genes to the noble females too.
Again, he might catch some flak for it. While the 'regular' noble might get flak mostly in the way of teasing, there might be more real pressure on a Val male to also make sure to have kids with the noble females.
If a Vel female
wanted to have kids with a commoner... At least among the Sharen, this would not be received well, unless the male could provide something extremely useful for them. Likely not even then. The Vels/Vals are the 'royal' family of a clan after all, and the Sharen are the ruling clan of Chel, officially.
A child from a Val mother will be a Val him/herself and be a pawn in the political play of both internal family politics as well as external.
Since the Sharen put stock in good bloodlines, ability isn't enough to get you allowance to have kids with a Vel.
(Likewise, a Vel might be excused things a commoner or lesser noble might not get away with, simply because of his/her bloodline.)
Depending on how lenient the Ill'haress is, a Val female from a clan that doesn't put as much importance in bloodlines (like the Ilhar'dro for example) might be allowed to have a kid with a commoner as long as they also do their duty and have a "proper" noble child first. Insufficient data to speculate more.
It is however implied that Diva'ratrika didn't allow her daughters much leniency in that department.
Zala'ess found suitable mates for children anyway, but Snadhya'rune didn't exactly take well to having her life managed like that...
Pitdragon has done a pretty good job of describing the amorphous shift between Vals, nobles and commoners, but I'd thought I'd provide an overview of how the social ladder looks.
(Val'Sharess and imperial court, for the whole of Chel.)
Major Clans (Val/Vel clans)
Val/Vel family - led by the Ill'haress.
Noble families/houses - led by a De'vess.
'Ruling' family - led by the Ilhar.
Noble families/houses - led by a ??? (Unknown title. Possibly De'vess, but likely differ like Ill'haress/Ilhar to distinguish between greater and lesser).
Led by the guild leader.
The council gathering in chapter 16 implied that minor clans and guilds (at least the more influential guilds) are similar and that a guild leader and Ilhar have a similar status.
My own speculation would put this as minor clans being influential social/business entities arranged along family/blood lines, while guilds are influential business organizations formed by people without blood connection who are in the same business.
This opens up the possibility for a member of a minor clan also being the member of a guild and only gets more complicated and brain-breaking from there.
Presumably they have some way of keeping track or keep things separated.
Reminds me a bit of Europe in the 17th century.
*Using the Vel prefix since the Sharen was the clan in question.