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Drow Society and Such Things

Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby DeadPigeonGolem » Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:50 pm

Clans from my understanding are considerably more paranoid than us commoners. Suntiger has already disproven my theory, in any case.
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby Smokehammer » Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:13 pm

So an Illhar or a De'vess's children are still considered nobles, just lesser nobles? I thought that, but Sharp was like, Sunny said VAL, maybe thats so, but its in the noble sense rather than the relatated to an Ill'haress sense. When he gets home ill tell him hes full of shit. *wee*
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby Pitdragon » Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:00 am

Smokehammer wrote:So an Illhar or a De'vess's children are still considered nobles, just lesser nobles? I thought that, but Sharp was like, Sunny said VAL, maybe thats so, but its in the noble sense rather than the relatated to an Ill'haress sense. When he gets home ill tell him hes full of shit. *wee*


I think it is a complicated and nuanced issue what they are considered. Obviously not all the 9 Great Clans descend directly from the old Dark Elf kingdoms and not all the 9 have been Greats since the city start, so there has to be allowance for possibly a Lesser Clan or Guild to become a Great Clan. Else every "new" clan would be scoffed at as Commoners - yet the Jaal are newer than the Sarghress and are not really treated as such, only the Sarghess and the Vloz'ress are often given the "commoner" insult. What determines how a Lesser Clan/Guild is treated on the Noble scale is not really easy to pick out - it could be long-term as a Lesser/Guild with a strong, mapped bloodline, with or without major connections to a Greater Clan. Or there could be something more, like known mixing with Val males at some point (though when and who doesn't matter in the overall scheme, it may to a Greater clan if that bond was used to better trade agreements, etc). But at some point the Greaters don't see rising Lessers as "commoners" in order to allow that upward movement to occur.

Though the difference may be in how it is gone about - a slow build with establishing bloodlines and training them to be strong before taking a seat vacated from war or other decline would be seen as the proper way, while upstarts like Quain that show up with a strong force and a Great Clan alliance and stand in defiance until none can deny their presence probably is seen as base and very "commoner-like." Or the shady rise of the Vloz. Or it could be in those clans' practices of taking in commoners and letting them rise in power (militarily for the Sarghress and via connections to Nether Summoners for the Vloz) long after the rise to Val status. I'm not 100% sure what the delineation is.
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby suntiger745 » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:45 pm

Sharptooth wrote:So if you're Sharen it would be ok to have an affair with a worthy commoner as long as you raised them to Val status. Alright. Is that an approved of process because technically most Val clans became that way due to proving themselves worthy of being a ruling house? Because from what Suntiger was saying as far as I could tell Sharen don't approve of relationships with commoners. Yeah they stick a fancy name on their twin sisters but everybody knows its bullshit except in the most extreme cases. And you wouldn't want bullshit bloodlines in your children. Though Sabrror if hes not a cousin might be one of those extreme cases. That's why given his example I was wondering if maybe there was a way to Sharenize Val from other clans.

That actually makes me wonder what the average Sharen opinion about having an affair with a protector twin would be.

For Sharen and commoners, that would depend on what kind of relationship they wanted to have.
They probably don't have any problems with taking a commoner lover, even if the snootier Sharen might consider that 'slumming'.

If a noble male wanted to have children with a commoner female, that probably wouldn't raise any fuss either. Any children will still be commoners.
He might get some flak if it's a commoner from the Sarghress section and not their own section though. ;)

If a noble Sharen female wanted to have children with a commoner male, well, she might lower her social status in the eyes of her peers unless the male has something that would be advantageous to the Sharen (genes, skills or connections). However, if she's willing to take the flak for getting kids from a commoner there's no problem. Well, unless her De'vess demands otherwise.

If a Vel* male wanted to have kids with a commoner... Eh, probably allowed as long as he also did his duty to provide his genes to the noble females too.
Again, he might catch some flak for it. While the 'regular' noble might get flak mostly in the way of teasing, there might be more real pressure on a Val male to also make sure to have kids with the noble females.

If a Vel female wanted to have kids with a commoner... At least among the Sharen, this would not be received well, unless the male could provide something extremely useful for them. Likely not even then. The Vels/Vals are the 'royal' family of a clan after all, and the Sharen are the ruling clan of Chel, officially.
A child from a Val mother will be a Val him/herself and be a pawn in the political play of both internal family politics as well as external.
Since the Sharen put stock in good bloodlines, ability isn't enough to get you allowance to have kids with a Vel.
(Likewise, a Vel might be excused things a commoner or lesser noble might not get away with, simply because of his/her bloodline.)

Depending on how lenient the Ill'haress is, a Val female from a clan that doesn't put as much importance in bloodlines (like the Ilhar'dro for example) might be allowed to have a kid with a commoner as long as they also do their duty and have a "proper" noble child first. Insufficient data to speculate more.
It is however implied that Diva'ratrika didn't allow her daughters much leniency in that department.
Zala'ess found suitable mates for children anyway, but Snadhya'rune didn't exactly take well to having her life managed like that...


Pitdragon has done a pretty good job of describing the amorphous shift between Vals, nobles and commoners, but I'd thought I'd provide an overview of how the social ladder looks.

(Val'Sharess and imperial court, for the whole of Chel.)

Major Clans (Val/Vel clans)
Val/Vel family - led by the Ill'haress.
Noble families/houses - led by a De'vess.

Minor clans
'Ruling' family - led by the Ilhar.
Noble families/houses - led by a ??? (Unknown title. Possibly De'vess, but likely differ like Ill'haress/Ilhar to distinguish between greater and lesser).

Guilds
Led by the guild leader.



The council gathering in chapter 16 implied that minor clans and guilds (at least the more influential guilds) are similar and that a guild leader and Ilhar have a similar status.
My own speculation would put this as minor clans being influential social/business entities arranged along family/blood lines, while guilds are influential business organizations formed by people without blood connection who are in the same business.

This opens up the possibility for a member of a minor clan also being the member of a guild and only gets more complicated and brain-breaking from there.
Presumably they have some way of keeping track or keep things separated.
Reminds me a bit of Europe in the 17th century.



*Using the Vel prefix since the Sharen was the clan in question.
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby Sharptooth » Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:50 pm

The biggest problem I was having with it is I didnt understand that nobles extended beyond the Val or Vel. Smoke kept trying to tell me that title equated to royalty not nobility but I thought he was full of shit. That's an excellent break down though. Now I get it. Coolz. You've saved my bro from an Irish knuckle rub o' doom.
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby Smokehammer » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:05 pm

Wait a minute though, Sharp had another question and im not letting him back in my chair (damn it I need to fix his computer XD ). Anyway, Sabrror is still referred to as Vel’Sharen right? So, is there still some way to elevate a noble to royalty that doesn’t involve marriage (since they don’t have it) or is he actually just one of Zala’s cousins, nephews, ect?

Im going with Pit actually already answered that, nobles can be made Val( or in this case Vel) if that’s something a Val wants to do, but he’s like nuh uh, I didn’t see that - whatever. No wait, (grrr maybe I should just let him post *upset* ) hes like, sure Sharen can make nobles royalty but is that still ok? Or should they stick to royalty to have their critters? Also, do royals from other cities count? Or would they put standards on aliens (wtf Sharp?) the way they put standards on the Sarghress?

Whoa, also on a semi unrealated note, since the daughters of Diva are each leaders of their own houses, are they all De'vesses in their own right, minus Snad?
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby Pitdragon » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:15 am

(You two are great XD )

I think with Sharen it depends on a lot of factors, like who you are pulling up. It is rare to make a noble (De'vess's line or Ill'har's line) female into a Val/Vel because that can cause conflict with the Val/Vel's bloodline (you're essentially saying this female is now equal to the daughters). You can sort of see this as the possible issue that could arise with the Nori'fu and Quain since Koil'dorath was displaced - if Koil actually showed a care about it then you'd have her vs Ariel and the whole Nori'fu would back her, especially if it could lead to the Nori'fu being the effective Val house. However, since males cannot make claims to rule raising a male noble to Val status would be a move to mark the allegiance of the noble's family with the Val/Vel family. I don't think this is a common occurrence to begin with, just one that can occur to show praise to the nobles in question. It doesn't even have to be about mates, as you see with Kor'maril being given status by Quain'tana to honor his mother and himself.

If Sabrror was from a Vassal house of the Sharen then I don't think it would cause a huge stir - their Nobles are supposed to be THE ultimate lesser Nobles, as they are attached to the Ruling Clan. If he was part of an older Lesser clan (still here or gone) it might also not be an issue if they have heavy alliances with the Sharen while still not being absorbed as a Vassal house (though this still could be looked down on and get some flak by family members that don't see a Lesser Clan with possibly fluid alliances as something to be pulling members from unless the male had a rare talent or trying to court absorbing that clan is worth it). Further, he could have been a son of an old allied Great Clan that fell, in which case his noble blood would still be considered, especially if Zala had him with her before his clan fell. Then she could just absorb him into her house and it wouldn't cause much of a stir. He could also be from another clan, such as the Belds, from older times when everyone got along better and the Belds weren't just the last of their Vals clinging together, which seems more likely than other clans that currently hold Great to be honest. We'd need to know where he came from to establish it better though.

As for the daughter's titles, they would probably not be referred to as De'vesses, their titles as Vals/Vels take precedence even if they handle their Houses like a De'vess would. De'vess seems to be the title of Vassal House leaders in Great Clans. I might be wrong on that though.
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby Smokehammer » Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:53 pm

Ah, you just think that because you dont have to live with us ;)

Anyway, so adoption of males would be possible and maybe not even frowned on as long as the lesser noblemen was noble enough. And its also possible to actually adopt another royal (male) into your house as long as his original clan had fallen but other wise he'd probably want to keep his clan family name under other circumstances, even if he stayed with the Sharen. Alright, that makes sense.

Ok, so you think Val would be a more important title than De'vess Pit? I was kinda thinking that it was sort of a rank, unlike Val which is more of a title. Sort of like, you can be Baron so-in-so, and also Commander so-in-so. But I suppose it makes sense the other way too, I mean its not like Diva has a crap ton of unrecognizable daughters, when people see Zala coming im sure they know shes head of X-house/troops.
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby suntiger745 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:36 pm

Just a quick note as an example.
The daughters of Diva are all of the main Vel'Sharen bloodline and do not have their own houses (even if they function as ones because of the internal clan politics).

The situation is unclear with Diva out of the picture, so for simplicity's sake I'll use an example while she was still in command.

Diva'ratrika Val'Sharen is the Ill'haress of the Val'Sharen clan.
Her living daughters are:
Snadhya'rune Val'Sharen
Sarv'swati Val'Sharen
Sillice Val'Sharen
Nishi'kanta Val'Sharen
Zala'ess Val'Sharen

(Diva also wears the hat as Val'Sharess of Chel, so she would not not be representing her own clan in the council, but she would still be the clan's Ill'haress.)

They are all of the same house/bloodline.

Oiloss'lin is the de'vess of the Xyrrai'zestu house, of the Sharen clan.
So her proper full name is Oiloss'lin Xyrrai'zestu Sharen.
As the De'vess of her house she is only outranked by the Val (later Vel) members of the Sharen clan and equal with the other de'vesses.
She might actually outrank even the Val males in some cases, but not the Val females.


The houses of a clan are usually relatives of the main Val family (especially among the Sharen and Beldrobbaen) and possibly allies that have sworn clan allegiance to them (Ilhar'dro probably, for example), though the later might not be practiced by the more bloodline conscious clans such as the Sharen and Beldrobbaen.
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby Sharptooth » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:40 pm

How far of a relation do you need to be away before you’re a related to the main house but no longer Val? 3rd-4th cousins? Or were the sub-houses related to Diva through her male relatives?
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby AthenAltena » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:52 pm

Duke Nukem wrote:
Sharptooth wrote:How far of a relation do you need to be away before you’re a related to the main house but no longer Val? 3rd-4th cousins? Or were the sub-houses related to Diva through her male relatives?


I imagine it depends on how useful you are.


And the size of the Val house. I imagine a third or fourth cousin of the main Val family in the Sullisin'rune might not be Val because there are so many descendants of Ash'waren, but because there are so few living members left in the Beldrobbaen that's another matter, and I believe all the Beldrobbaen are Vals.
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby Pitdragon » Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:21 am

Sharptooth wrote:How far of a relation do you need to be away before you’re a related to the main house but no longer Val? 3rd-4th cousins? Or were the sub-houses related to Diva through her male relatives?


Possibly. The only other way I can think is due to siblings - if say Snadhya followed the typical path and Diva kicked it and Snadhya took the Ill'haress seat, would her sisters still be in the Ill'haress's house or would they become De'vesses is something I'm not clear on. Perhaps it has not happened that way in the history of Chel so it is hazy. However, there is some indication that surviving daughters of Ash'waren's sisters could be the De'vesses of Sullisin houses, so it is a possibility that once an Ill'haress is named her direct descendants become the Ruling House while any siblings, nieces, or cousins becomes De'vesses if they agree to settle down. They may retain a Val/Vel title but their descendants might not. This is possibly where the idea of De'vesses being lesser nobles occurred to begin with. Though I would gather the oldest Sharen houses are probably descendants of generals and other beings of importance in relation to Sharess's decrees and the exodus, instead of cousins of Diva.

But I'm only making vague assumptions - again, the eldest clans in Chel are the Sharen, Sullisin'rune, Beldrobbaen and the Ilhar'dro, and the first two are the ones that were indicated to pre-date the city's formation and the foundation of the Greater Clan system, and also retain their original Ill'haresses (and for sure descend from Dark Elf royalty), so the scenario of how the Ill'haress role-over occurs probably hasn't really played out in known history. Perhaps with the Beldrobbaen (who knows again with the Ilhar'dro, they have bases outside the city and supposedly descend from the same nation as the Black Sun leaders do), but since information on this is pretty slim in the main comic it's guesswork from here.

Sons in this case could probably just fall under their Ill'haress sister's house, since she is the inheritor of her mother's title and so they become tied to her.
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby tyciol » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:33 pm

suntiger745 wrote:the goblin species does have a strong stigma against both sex and breeding within the immediate family, for a good reason too. The fact that casual sex in the immediate family exist at all among the drow is one of the reasons that leads some groups of goblins to consider the drow 'black devils' (magic and taking slaves are two other factors).
Would anyone happen to know which chapters (pages?) focus on explaining this relationship?
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby Shgon Dunstan » Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:35 am

DeadPigeonGolem wrote:If there's one thing about the drow that fascinates me, it's the reversal of gender roles compared to humans on Earth.

Well, to just skip over 7 pages I don't have time to read right now. ^^

Personally..... I don't really see it as all that "reversed". Yeah, women are "bigger", and are the rulers, but..... For the most part, for all of men being smaller then the women, the armies are at best split half and half, if not more towards the men, simply because the women are off "being in charge". "macho" and "manly" still seems to mean mostly what it does in the RW, and the same with "feminine". Honestly, most things seem to be the same, save for a cultural leaning towards deferral to the female.... And even that's mostly to the "leading" female, rather then the female fellow commoner right next to you.

So yeah, definitely "different", but I'd say more "twisted" then fully "reversed". *hmmm*
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby Shgon Dunstan » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:48 am

Well... Maybe I did have the time after all. *lol*

Anyway.... I'd think it unlikely that the commoners have such a light view of sex as the nobles do(if the nobles even still do post reboot), simply because the "Guild of Flowers", a guild of prostitutes with enough power to be heard in politics.

If there was an orgy on every street corner, then chances are a starving commoner would be saving their money for "food".... Hell, if sex in general was seen as such a minor thing, with ether commoners or nobles, then why does a guild of "common fence painters" have such political power as the Guild of Flowers was showing? ^^;
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