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Drow Society and Such Things

Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby Sharptooth » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:52 pm

True, but since its not a lifelong thing how do they handle it when they dont care anymore? Is the exchanged male going to stay a brother?
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby DeadPigeonGolem » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:54 pm

I guess. But still a brother from another clan trusted enough to be allowed in. I interpret the clans as being extremely insular, so allowing someone from another clan in to see EVERYTHING is a big step.
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby blackshade10 » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:30 pm

Except the male is rarely considered THAT important. In addition, drow do not have marriage customs as drow do not get married.
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby Pitdragon » Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:19 pm

blackshade10 wrote:Except the male is rarely considered THAT important. In addition, drow do not have marriage customs as drow do not get married.


Yup, and I could also see that a Val might give a male from a vassal house status in connection to themselves as a reward to that house to better establish intra-clan ties - Zala therefore could have boosted Sabrror from, say, the Xyrrai'zestu, and while she did it because she does have a strong bond with him it also causes the Xyrrai'zestu to be honored (especially if he was in the De'vess's family), hence stronger loyalty to the Val houses, especially to Zala's house in particular.

While I don't know Sabrror's lineage, I'm just using the Xyrrai'zestu as an example because they were Zala's vanguard and appear very loyal in the Prologue. Point is though that a Val can raise a status for someone if they wish, especially someone who has no measurable impact on the clan/bloodline (a male). Raising a female would put them on status with one's descendants which could cause trouble, though technically with the Protector Twins the twin does stand the possibility of taking their sister's place (even if it is rare they do). Quain taking in non-blood heirs is probably scoffed at by other clans, especially the Sharen, for this reason - they risk someone else's bloodline continuing into the future, especially when the adopted forcibly takes the reigns with clan backup. Quain naturally would want her children to take over what she's made, but that probably is a sore spot that she's aware of too, and having Ariel does reduce badmouthing about Quain's personal power (for Vals, this is family strength, which Quain has little of with but two living children, one male, and a grandchild).

But as males are not important in the scheme of things unless you want to mention who they fathered for record-keeping, raising a male to your house is probably not a huge deal and again, reserved for honoring those who have aided your house. If you do get bored with them, it isn't a huge deal - they probably serve more than a mating function in the house (I suspect Sabrror has some military or guard-organizing duties in Zala's house) so the Val female can still utilize them and possibly return to them for mating later if she becomes interested again. It isn't like if she moves on she will never show interest again. Even Zala has mated with other men, she just returns to Sabrror often and has an emotional connection to him past just mating. He also is very loyal so even when she's away he's still doing what he can to support her house.
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby DeadPigeonGolem » Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:24 pm

Well, what I was saying was that it'd be like a symbolism thing, you know? So if, for example, Quain'tana and Zala decided to put the war on hold to fight some other great evil, they'd exchange Nau and Sarnel, who'd then change their names to "Nau'kheol Sarghress" and "Sarnel Sharen", respectively. The idea is that you trust the other clan enough to take one of their members as your own, even though said member could easily be a double agent and bring down your clan from the inside.


Or basically, what Pitdragon said in the last paragraph. I just wanted to make sure I was understood. Sorry? ^^;
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby Sharptooth » Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:38 pm

So if you're Sharen it would be ok to have an affair with a worthy commoner as long as you raised them to Val status. Alright. Is that an approved of process because technically most Val clans became that way due to proving themselves worthy of being a ruling house? Because from what Suntiger was saying as far as I could tell Sharen don't approve of relationships with commoners. Yeah they stick a fancy name on their twin sisters but everybody knows its bullshit except in the most extreme cases. And you wouldn't want bullshit bloodlines in your children. Though Sabrror if hes not a cousin might be one of those extreme cases. That's why given his example I was wondering if maybe there was a way to Sharenize Val from other clans.

That actually makes me wonder what the average Sharen opinion about having an affair with a protector twin would be.
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby DeadPigeonGolem » Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:07 am

1. MMmmm.....uh? If "worthy" means "saved your ass" or "kicks massive butt" or "is somehow net beneficial to the clan", then I'd assume so. There'd probs be a bunch of negotiations for inclusion as a sub-clan, contracts of loyalty, etc.

2. Affairs with your protector twin are probably discouraged strongly. Incest would cause inbreeding which causes degeneration of the bloodline, so incest in any form is probably shut down to prevent it from happening accidentally. This suddenly makes me want to ship Khrys'telXShi'nae.
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby Junglefowl26 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:34 am

for Vals, this is family strength, which Quain has little of with but two living children, one male, and a grandchild

Technically, Kel has plenty of children of his own, so her linage is still going strong on that side...

Ironic...Quaintana mentioned something about ending the insanities of Chel, but she passes over her best heir and all his decedents because of his gender. Heck, it strikes me as odd she is so insistent on having a blood heir when the whole clan was founded on individual merit taking precedent bloodline.
I suppose even people who want to change their society are still shaped by it.
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby Khanna » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:22 am

DeadPigeonGolem wrote: 2. Affairs with your protector twin are probably discouraged strongly. Incest would cause inbreeding which causes degeneration of the bloodline, so incest in any form is probably shut down to prevent it from happening accidentally. This suddenly makes me want to ship Khrys'telXShi'nae.


Huh? But I thought that most protector twins were the same gender as their protected sibling, like Chrys/Shinae and Vy'chriel/Yaeminira. So inbreeding as a result of a relationship wouldn't be a problem, unless they had Snad's power and inlfuance to afford a test tube baby from the Jaal. And since most drow are bisexual, for the couple to be of the same gender shouldn't be a problem either.
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby Mieari » Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:09 pm

Protector twins seem to not be part of the Sharen clan by blood either, there would be no issue of inbreeding.
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby Pitdragon » Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:00 pm

Junglefowl26 wrote:
for Vals, this is family strength, which Quain has little of with but two living children, one male, and a grandchild

Technically, Kel has plenty of children of his own, so her linage is still going strong on that side...

Ironic...Quaintana mentioned something about ending the insanities of Chel, but she passes over her best heir and all his decedents because of his gender. Heck, it strikes me as odd she is so insistent on having a blood heir when the whole clan was founded on individual merit taking precedent bloodline.
I suppose even people who want to change their society are still shaped by it.


True Kel has many kids and grandkids, but it is the female line that still takes precedence in Drow society - right now, Quain is still judged by her female line. Now if her side wins out and it is proven her strength is in the connections made through her son with her various houses, then that could aid a lot in male status in society (something Kel dearly wants). And yes, you'll see a lot of examples in history where people have tried to change society, but only get through a facet instead of going further. Society very much shapes a person - while some things need changing, an individual can rationalize other things to stay the same because "that makes sense though." Since female lineage is still #1 in that society, Quain can rationalize her female bloodline being more of a focus for succession while at the same time want to drag down the Val rules of bloodlines requiring so much "noble" lineage and how raising of daughters is done and the status of commoners and their ability to rise and all that. Because to her the female lineage makes as much sense as male lineage does in our world - there are still many people that want to have at least one son "to carry on the family name."

Also the commoner thing is complicated - Vassal houses and Lesser Clans aren't always considered commoner except in the "not a Val" sense. A Vassal House of the Sharen are better than the average Commoner - they also were probably Lesser Clans absorbed by the Sharen or houses of defeated Val clans that were, so they have strong, well-recorded lineages and their De'vesses may have been Ill'hars in their own right at some point. Commoner is a complicated term - it can mean "not a Val" but sometimes it means more than that, as in to what degree you are not a Val. The typical Chelian citizen is a commoner, but someone of a De'vess's or an Ill'har's house may not be seen as a commoner but a "lesser noble". Especially older clan De'vesses and older Lesser Clans. The Sarghress get the 'commoner' treatment due to Quain being an upstart that has tried numerous times to shake the status quo of the city, which is why even Diva tried to deny her the Council seat. I also gather that mercenaries are sort of seen as the dregs of society, maybe just above slavers - needed but frowned upon, though usually only when your opponent uses them.

But not all "non-Val" clans or subhouses are considered "commoner" in the base sense - else no clan could rise to be the next Great Clan when a seat is vacated. But that whole deal I suppose is complicated by what Val considers what "not quite a Val" group as "not commoner" enough. I could see the Sharen treating their own Vassal houses as the ultimate "lesser nobles" by extension of being in the Royal Clan. Still sacrificial as troops when necessary but more useful than the average commoner too.
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby DeadPigeonGolem » Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:06 pm

Khanna wrote:
DeadPigeonGolem wrote: 2. Affairs with your protector twin are probably discouraged strongly. Incest would cause inbreeding which causes degeneration of the bloodline, so incest in any form is probably shut down to prevent it from happening accidentally. This suddenly makes me want to ship Khrys'telXShi'nae.


Huh? But I thought that most protector twins were the same gender as their protected sibling, like Chrys/Shinae and Vy'chriel/Yaeminira. So inbreeding as a result of a relationship wouldn't be a problem, unless they had Snad's power and inlfuance to afford a test tube baby from the Jaal. And since most drow are bisexual, for the couple to be of the same gender shouldn't be a problem either.


Ah, what I meant was the slippery slope argument.

So let's say that Khrys and Shi' start getting it on. This would not be too great of a problem, since they're both female. The fear, however, is that Khrys will go "That was fun. I wonder if Nau's busy...." and go jump HIS bones. And then another guy related to her. And another. And another. Even if she's got other guys on the side that are not related to her, the chances of her getting preggers with, say, Nau's kid go up the more she bangs him. Inbreeding is generally a bad thing, and I'm assuming that the clans are all into the "WE MUST BE A POWERFUL BLOODLINE" thing. Thus, they'd discourage and breakup sibling relationships, even if it's between two individuals of the same gender.
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby suntiger745 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:27 pm

That's not quite how it works.
The mana that makes fae long-lived and healthy (provided they are in enough numbers) also repress harmful mutations and degeneration. Not completely, but considerably more than in does in RL humans or the DT goblin species*.
There is no stigma against siblings or kids/parents having sex with the drow.
There is however a stigma against having children with a parent, offspring or sibling. Note that this stigma is more social than biological.

Yes, several generations of inbreeding will cause defects in the kids for the fae too, but not as quickly and not as noticeably as with RL humans, or the goblin species in Drowtales.
Like many societies, for the nobles children are as much a political tool as they are a welcome addition to the family in their own right (to a greater or lesser degree, depending on the parent and their clan...).

A clan that breeds within the family too much would be seen as insular and, after the negative effects begin to hit, weak and degenerate as well.
However, for the more bloodline-conscious clans, it might be preferable for a female to have a child by a sibling or parent if not someone "suitably noble" can be found among more distant relatives or allies as long at this doesn't happen for more than a generation or two.

Ergo, there is an incentive (both social and biological) for people to breed with people who are not immediate family, but no such incentive for the immediate family, except in special occasions.
When it's just sex though, it's fine. That doesn't mean everyone is screwing their immediate family though, just that there is no stigma among the drow (unknown for the vanir and drowussu). Likely, it's not common, but neither is it unusual.

However, the goblin species does have a strong stigma against both sex and breeding within the immediate family, for a good reason too. The fact that casual sex in the immediate family exist at all among the drow is one of the reasons that leads some groups of goblins to consider the drow 'black devils' (magic and taking slaves are two other factors).


*On the other hand, there are also some diseases the fae get that they goblins don't, precisely because the later don't have an aura.
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby DeadPigeonGolem » Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:30 pm

All hail the wisdom of Suntiger!
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Re: Drow Society and Such Things

Postby Nikkoru-san » Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:45 pm

DeadPigeonGolem wrote:
Khanna wrote:
DeadPigeonGolem wrote: 2. Affairs with your protector twin are probably discouraged strongly. Incest would cause inbreeding which causes degeneration of the bloodline, so incest in any form is probably shut down to prevent it from happening accidentally. This suddenly makes me want to ship Khrys'telXShi'nae.


Huh? But I thought that most protector twins were the same gender as their protected sibling, like Chrys/Shinae and Vy'chriel/Yaeminira. So inbreeding as a result of a relationship wouldn't be a problem, unless they had Snad's power and inlfuance to afford a test tube baby from the Jaal. And since most drow are bisexual, for the couple to be of the same gender shouldn't be a problem either.


Ah, what I meant was the slippery slope argument.

So let's say that Khrys and Shi' start getting it on. This would not be too great of a problem, since they're both female. The fear, however, is that Khrys will go "That was fun. I wonder if Nau's busy...." and go jump HIS bones. And then another guy related to her. And another. And another. Even if she's got other guys on the side that are not related to her, the chances of her getting preggers with, say, Nau's kid go up the more she bangs him. Inbreeding is generally a bad thing, and I'm assuming that the clans are all into the "WE MUST BE A POWERFUL BLOODLINE" thing. Thus, they'd discourage and breakup sibling relationships, even if it's between two individuals of the same gender.


Umm, I know Drow are more open sexually, but they're not out to fuck everything. I really don't see Chrys thinking "Hey, my female protector is good in bed, maybe my baby brother is too!". First; Doesn't fit her character and second; It's just plain ludicrous.

If they were so worried about brothers and sisters going at it, they'd segregate them completely.
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