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Drow morality discussion

Re: Drow morality discussion

Postby Catriana » Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:24 pm

MEK1724 wrote:
Catriana wrote: I doubt this is something done among commoners, but I'm pretty sure Zala isn't the only one among the Vals who does this.

Actually arranged marriages were common even among the lower classes , at least in Germany , and Venice back in the day . Although it has been argued that lower classes would arrange marriages less , I see scant evidence for this .


We're not talking about Venice or Germany.

And while we've seen signs of arranged relationships between major clans, the only real instance we've seen of a commoner relationship was one that seemed a lot more independent(as in, no parental influence) and committed than what we've seen from Vals. So while I'm not saying arranged unions don't exist (I definitely believe it exists in minor clans as well, but I consider minor clans to be a sort of lower class nobility, especially since many have been absorbed into houses of major clans) I don't think it's done often with commoners in this setting. They seem to have a lot more freedom of choice in matters of love and relationships.
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Re: Drow morality discussion

Postby MEK1724 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:39 pm

Catriana wrote:We're not talking about Venice or Germany.

Oh I thought you were referencing real world occurrence , since you didn't reference the comic , when you made that statement .
Catriana wrote:was one that seemed a lot more independent(as in, no parental influence)

True but technically Naus one , was basically pick someone from the Balvhakara clan . It wasn't here is Sara , go make babies with her .
I can't see why Nau couldn't break up with his choice , provided he picked someone else from the clan shortly afterwards , assuming it wasn't working out to well between them . *hmmm* So I'm not sure how different that date would look compared to a young noble spending time with an arranged partner they've become familiar with .

Although one thing which suggests more independence in Samakis and Jens relationship , then say Nau might have , is the fact that Jens himself is talking about helping Samaki , rather then him saying that his mother could . (whom I would usually have more money , especially if he was talking about helping the whole family) This suggests more independence from his family then I thought Jens would have , especially at such a young age , as well as implying that he has significant amounts of his own money .
Although maybe Jens was talking about his mother helping her family . It's hard to know .
and committed than what we've seen from Vals.

Now I'm definitely sure we don't know how long commoners stick together. And even the nobility amongst drow have several examples of relationships which last for at least decades . (if we're counting Snadhya and Mel , there's a distant one which lasts centuries (I mean Mels feeling are genuine for hundreds of years at least) ) Although you are correct that there are quite a lot of single ladies amongst the older generations , unless the nobles ladies leave all their mate/s at home , when they talk politics or go to war . *hmmm*
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Re: Drow morality discussion

Postby Catriana » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:33 pm

A committed relationship is based on an understanding between those involved, time does not necessarily factor into it (but it doesn't hurt, either). Jens told Kyonne he wascourting his girlfriend. That's an interesting term to use if the relationship is supposed to be casual.

In Nau's case, Zala'ess may have someone lined up for him(Chrys' situation was different because she's female); An'jin is going off of what he's heard when he asks Nau that question, but no specific details. Nau tried to dodge a bullet with those two, but I doubt he'd have the same luck with his mother. Regardless, being able to choose who you want to marry so long as it's from a specific clan is still a political gesture and an arranged union.

I can't see why Nau couldn't break up with his choice , provided he picked someone else from the clan shortly afterwards , assuming it wasn't working out to well between them . *hmmm* So I'm not sure how different that date would look compared to a young noble spending time with an arranged partner they've become familiar with .


I don't understand the point you're trying to make here.

Jens' family is well off, but it's still his family, not him. He may have access to that wealth and freedom to move about as he chooses (which would reinforce my point that commoners have more freedoms than those of nobility), but I don't think he's independent from his family. He could just be good at saving up his allowance. I don't think he would have mentioned his family the way he did if he wasn't trying to imply that he could go to them to help Sami'ka's family if she wanted.

Now I'm definitely sure we don't know how long commoners stick together.


That was why I didn't state it as a fact. And I also didn't say that nobility do not have long lasting relationships, I said that once a child is born from the union the vals aren't obligated to stay together. If they want to stay together it could be encouraged, since that just strengthens the connection between the two clans.
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Re: Drow morality discussion

Postby MEK1724 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:40 pm

Catriana wrote:
MEK1724 wrote:I can't see why Nau couldn't break up with his choice , provided he picked someone else from the clan shortly afterwards , assuming it wasn't working out to well between them . *hmmm* So I'm not sure how different that date would look compared to a young noble spending time with an arranged partner they've become familiar with .

I don't understand the point you're trying to make here.

Well you were implying that the commoner example would look different to a noble example , as it seemed to you to be independent of parental interference . You also implied that it didn't look like it was arranged by the couples parents .

I'm asking how we would know if it was set up by their parents , based on what we saw of them ? If the parents didn't arrange for the two to meet , what shows that fact ? Or what would look different if they had?

Based on what Anjin was saying to Nau it seems like the nobility might have some leeway in choosing their partners , so a period where the couple just dated to get to know eachother seems possible , and the male may not have to leave his home at this point (I believe drow nobles were stated to be matrilocal) . The pair might choose to break or not break off their relationship after this initial foray.

So if it is possible that nobles could date and spend time together (even far away from their parents perhaps) , before the male has to leave his home to go to the females , how could a nobles not look similar to Jens and Samaki's relationship ?
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Re: Drow morality discussion

Postby Catriana » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:07 am

No, we don't have any evidence (as in, a blatant statement) that they weren't paired together by their parents beyond the fact that if that were the case, their conversation would have gone a bit differently, I believe. If there was an arranged union, Sami'ka wouldn't have found his offer disagreeable, there would have already been something in place. Or she likely would have suggested he bring the subject up to her mother, not get uncomfortable and tell him to drop the subject. Alliances like that typically come with benefits/support between the two parties involved.

I'm sorry, I strongly disagree with your view on this. Freedom of choice would mean he could choose anyone regardless of clan (enemies of the clan are understandable exceptions). He HAS to choose a Balvhakara if Zala'ess has her way. Not an Illhar'dro, not a Jie'yen, a Balvhakara. And that's likely because Zala'ess really wants the Matriarch on her side(she's the closest to a Chelian val that there is in Nuqrah, Zala would naturally want to ally with someone like that if everything she said at the council meeting 15 years ago was any clue). Just because he can pick from among eligible females in that clan doesn't mean he's not restricted. I'd call Nau's situation the illusion of choice. I mean, if he chooses and is happy with his choice good for him, but he's still bound to his mother's whims.

The difference between Nau, Sami and Jen is that it is far more likely that Sami and Jen's situation was one of circumstance, whereas Nau MUST choose someone to mate with based on certain requirements set by his mother. And he's not too pleased with it if he's going as far as to claim that he's with Kiel in an act of desperation(that he is likely hoping and praying she doesn't find out about).

And I never said that a noble couldn't have a relationship of circumstance? That's the second time you've said something like that and not once have I implied that my assertion of Nau's situation was the law for all nobles. I said that drow do practice arranged unions. That is true, we have in comic evidence of this. I said it is unlikely that this is something commoners practice. That is admittedly sketchy, but that's why it's speculation based on how I've read and interpreted the comic.

I have not said, nor implied, that nobles cannot have committed relationships or have complete freedom of choice in regards to their relationships. I am using Nau as an example because he is applicable to the subject, which was whether or not drows have arranged unions.
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Re: Drow morality discussion

Postby MEK1724 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:35 am

Catriana wrote: Sami'ka wouldn't have found his offer disagreeable, there would have already been something in place. Or she likely would have suggested he bring the subject up to her mother, not get uncomfortable and tell him to drop the subject. Alliances like that typically come with benefits/support between the two parties involved.

This is true . Helping an inlaws family through money strains is important , in such a society .

Although Samika may have found it improper to ask for such help , considering that they weren't living together or anything . This fact suggests to me that their relationship was in a relatively early stage , where such a request would be considered strange , or even come across as money grubbing by Samakis family . Also considering Samaki said they were fine , immediately before her family was enslaved , I think her mother may have been keeping her out of the loop ( although certainly things couldn't have turned out worse then they did , had her family asked for help , so I don't see why they wouldn't have done so either way , unless the loan being called in was a surprise for her mother) . Were they already to have had children and Jens were living at her home , I doubt there would have been any hesitancy to make a request to his family (and it would have had a higher chance of being successful) .
Catriana wrote:I'm sorry, I strongly disagree with your view on this. Freedom of choice would mean he could choose anyone regardless of clan (enemies of the clan are understandable exceptions). He HAS to choose a Balvhakara if Zala'ess has her way. Not an Illhar'dro, not a Jie'yen, a Balvhakara.

That's not my viewpoint . I agree . Nau is indeed not really free .
He has slightly more options , or freedom , then none , in that he is not being restrained to mating with only one particular woman , whom he has no say on regardless of how well he likes the person (assuming Anjin knows what's going on) , but that is as far as one might say his freedom extends (ie: not so far) .
Sami and Jen is that it is far more likely that Sami and Jen's situation was one of circumstance

I'm not sure what evidence there is which pushes it into this was arranged vs not arranged though , asides from Jens speaking as though he could personally help Samaki by himself , rather then his family .
Although even that has possible explanations , consistent with the arranged relationship .
And I never said that a noble couldn't have a relationship of circumstance? That's the second time you've said something like that

I don't remember when I said anything like that . Could you quote to where I specifically mentioned that ?
I did say that nobles could date like Samaki and Jens , but I thought I wrote that on the assumption that Samaki and Jens meeting worked in the same way as Anjin implied Naus would , where Nau has some power to refuse any matches he finds too objectionable . (because any but the shortest period of dating before Nau moving into his mates house , would seem a bit superfluous if he did not have any tenable option to refuse the match his mother made .)
Like ....
-----------------------
Zala : Nau I found you a nice woman , from a good family , spend some time with her and see if you like her .
*later*
Nau : I don't like her .
Zala : That's alright I have another girl in mind from the Balvhakara .
-----------------------
See Samaki and Jens might have met like that (except Jens probably would have said I like her in the second sentence) , and their dating could just be resulting from their parents getting them to see if they'll accept the match they made .
which was whether or not drows have arranged unions.

I thought I was talking about whether or not arranged unions occur across the social scale ?
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