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Clan Populations

Re: Clan Populations

Postby Junglefowl26 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:09 am

That's easy, she united all the mercinary tribes in chel in existence at that time there has been plenty of time for new mercenary groups to arise, move in from various other cities ect.

Very good point,

Plus, come to think of it, sources saying she united all the merc groups are probably just oversimplifying for convenience sake.


They have non-val nobles, or vassal houses. So yeah, Syph's house would have been noble, but not Val. Sunny and Pitdragon kinda explained it here when Sharp and I were fighting about commoners vs Vals and Sharen inbreeding if they were all Val (turns out they arent), which led to us being informed there was a third class of people - Non-Val nobles.

Very interesting. I had been under the impression that Val was just the Drow word for noble, I didn't know it was a specific rank.

Since non-Val nobles are referred to that often, i am going to assume they have a rather nebulous place in society.

Im not saying they dont have "associated commoners" of some sort, but they're not clanswomen from what we've heard/seen -those are all noble, greater(Val) or lesser. And again, all of their nobles are first and foremost , warriors. Which isnt to say in a warrior based clan system that even a Sullisin noble wouldnt be expected to know how to fight, its just that because thats not their principle specialty, its an after thought( a really big one in a Sullies case XD ). Like say a Sulli studied martial arts as a teenager for a few years and maybe uses it as a way to keep fit, but said Sulli is principally a teacher of healing arts after a long career as a doctor. Conversely you might have a Sharen who was a healer, but ever since they could hold a sword they were taught how to use it, and while being a doctor's nice, its something they learned after they spent years fighting, or as an adjunct to their fighting. When and if the Sharen laps a few centuries, she might teach the healing arts but chances are it will be as applicable to the battlefield, rather than private practice. And since this teacher/healer of the Sharen wont actually age much, in times of war she's going to show up on the battlefield and be counted, where as the Sulli professor wont -thats what the Tiger Knights(and the Sarghress) are for.

Good analysis, I agree...

Matter of fact, in one of the DayDream stories, Sarv shunned one of her daughters for being a bookworm instead of a warrior if I remember correctly. Now, Sarv has been referred to as a control freak so she is probably more prone to doing that an most Sharen.


They seem to be herders. If theyre nomads, they could wander over world -graze their animals & gather stuff and then disappear back into the mists to regenerate their mana. They can also easily raid human settlements for goods.

Good point again. Though the underground doesn't strike me as good for grazing, outside of Mim anyway. Course, moving towards the surface can help with that.

Though speaking of economic lifestyles...I wonder what the average commoner does for a living?
In most feudal societies, the vast majority of people would be farmers, but Chel has little farmland and the drow's need to live in cities to keep their mana up wouldn't let them be farmers anyway.

In an industrial society, most people would be factory workers, but I don't think the drow mass produce anything. And even with all their fancy golem tech, I can't call them industrialized - after all, every golem is hand made, not mass produced.

In a post-industrial society, most people have jobs related to service and information, but I think that requires a certain amount of wealth and leisure that they don't have in Chel. Naquar, sure, but Chel...

Maybe that is why there are so many mercenaries.
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Re: Clan Populations

Postby Jiharn » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:33 pm

Junglefowl26 wrote:
That's easy, she united all the mercinary tribes in chel in existence at that time there has been plenty of time for new mercenary groups to arise, move in from various other cities ect.

Very good point,

Plus, come to think of it, sources saying she united all the merc groups are probably just oversimplifying for convenience sake.


I think there was a minor clan of warrior/mercenaryish people that predated ths Sarghress, wasn't there? Appears here in the first panel, I believe.


Junglefowl26 wrote:Good point again. Though the underground doesn't strike me as good for grazing, outside of Mim anyway. Course, moving towards the surface can help with that.

Though speaking of economic lifestyles...I wonder what the average commoner does for a living?
In most feudal societies, the vast majority of people would be farmers, but Chel has little farmland and the drow's need to live in cities to keep their mana up wouldn't let them be farmers anyway.

In an industrial society, most people would be factory workers, but I don't think the drow mass produce anything. And even with all their fancy golem tech, I can't call them industrialized - after all, every golem is hand made, not mass produced.

In a post-industrial society, most people have jobs related to service and information, but I think that requires a certain amount of wealth and leisure that they don't have in Chel. Naquar, sure, but Chel...

Maybe that is why there are so many mercenaries.


Well, they do have some farms in Chel. Not a lot, but they exist. And for the rest, like in European medieval cities, a lot of the inhabitants could be minor traders, craftsmen, store owners/runners, laborers, and servants. For example, given how they live underground I suspect a decent number of people are miners for the iron of all that armor and weapons that get used. And there are probably a lot of people involved in the craft of smithing, to use all that iron; golems and weapons wouldn't be so much "mass produced" as "produced by masses". This guy, for instance, might not be some independent blacksmith but a head or representative of a guild of blacksmiths. Or there are people that brew beer/alcohol!

Even with those, it probably seems like there are still a lot more people unaccounted for. In which case, I suppose that a sizable portion of the remainder have nothing legitimate to do for a living. Just not enough jobs to go around. Widespread poverty with a very lopsided distribution of wealth is a sure ingredient for social instability.
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Re: Clan Populations

Postby Smokehammer » Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:07 pm

For a long time though, they couldnt come out of their underground cities right? So their farming, herding and fishing must be alot more extensive than we're giving them credit for -which was the big argument against the commoner's sum that there were 1,000,000 people in a couple hundred sq miles of rock. Im sure theres lots of miners and unemployed but -eh I'd bet on large tracks of Chel being fairly "rural". They may not be the animals and crops of the surface (then again with mana tech & the pillar of light, they could have extensive hothouse technology) but they need to be able to grow a decent amount of food, or they'd be far more apt to defend the Halme populations overworld than they seem to be.

Junglefowl26 wrote:
Matter of fact, in one of the DayDream stories, Sarv shunned one of her daughters for being a bookworm instead of a warrior if I remember correctly. Now, Sarv has been referred to as a control freak so she is probably more prone to doing that an most Sharen.


Jaya -yeah. But thats a strange interpretation of control freak. You'd think under those circumstances Siksi would have been up her ass day and night but instead she ignored her -to the point of where she didnt know or care that Jaya was an Über summoner Char-style. But regardless of Sarv's true nature, that example just goes to show even the crazy academic Sharen who are hardcore geeks to the point of being disowned are in fact, fighters as well XD
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Re: Clan Populations

Postby Junglefowl26 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:32 am

I think there was a minor clan of warrior/mercenaryish people that predated ths Sarghress, wasn't there? Appears here in the first panel, I believe.

Oh yeah, those guys. The Ptpers call them the "Sexy Santas"

They are a pro-Sharen clan if I remember correctly. I wonder if they are involved with the war at all...

Well, they do have some farms in Chel. Not a lot, but they exist. And for the rest, like in European medieval cities, a lot of the inhabitants could be minor traders, craftsmen, store owners/runners, laborers, and servants. For example, given how they live underground I suspect a decent number of people are miners for the iron of all that armor and weapons that get used. And there are probably a lot of people involved in the craft of smithing, to use all that iron; golems and weapons wouldn't be so much "mass produced" as "produced by masses".

Yeah, ok, that all makes sense. Thanks for the info.

This guy, for instance, might not be some independent blacksmith but a head or representative of a guild of blacksmiths.

Aren't they Kal'Yanta?

For a long time though, they couldnt come out of their underground cities right? So their farming, herding and fishing must be alot more extensive than we're giving them credit for

True, but I also think the population used to be a lot smaller than it is now, and more and more land is being taken for development.

Plus with the right techniques, you can feed a lot of people with fewer farmers....though I imagine that they would need every technique at their disposal to get anything out of farms with no sunlight.

I also think Mim is the breadbasket of the underworld with its unusually fertile land and access to rain water. And the waters of Felde seem fertile.

Im sure theres lots of miners and unemployed but -eh I'd bet on large tracks of Chel being fairly "rural".
Well, the fact that elves need to stay close to one another to avoid mana deprivation makes me wonder just how rural they can really be. seems like they are naturally urbanized...

Kind of funny, if you think about how elves are usually portrayed.

they'd be far more apt to defend the Halme populations overworld than they seem to be.

Well, maybe the Halme's loses are at least partly to blame for the current food crisis.

Jaya -yeah. But thats a strange interpretation of control freak. You'd think under those circumstances Siksi would have been up her ass day and night but instead she ignored her -to the point of where she didnt know or care that Jaya was an Über summoner Char-style. But regardless of Sarv's true nature, that example just goes to show even the crazy academic Sharen who are hardcore geeks to the point of being disowned are in fact, fighters as well

Well, no one doubts that Quain is a control freak, but she rarely interacts with her kids. Even Mel was left to her own devices for long periods of time until the Skyhole War. It is the same with Siksi I imagine: long periods of neglect and a severe tongue lashing when they do meet...and Jaya almost starved cause no one cared to check up on her.

As for being a warrior...I remember Mel punching her out with one attack. :P
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Re: Clan Populations

Postby Smokehammer » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:24 pm

Junglefowl26 wrote:Well, the fact that elves need to stay close to one another to avoid mana deprivation makes me wonder just how rural they can really be. seems like they are naturally urbanized...

Kind of funny, if you think about how elves are usually portrayed.



It CANT be that bad or the Highland Raiders would all die/age badly before they made it home. Sure they cant live all alone in the middle of no where without mana bearing vegetation for long periods of time, but I doubt anywhere in Chel wouldnt be out in the middle of no where. Good point about them not needing as many people/or as much property for farms due to technology though *hmmm*

Junglefowl26 wrote:Well, no one doubts that Quain is a control freak, but she rarely interacts with her kids. Even Mel was left to her own devices for long periods of time until the Skyhole War. It is the same with Siksi I imagine: long periods of neglect and a severe tongue lashing when they do meet...and Jaya almost starved cause no one cared to check up on her.

As for being a warrior...I remember Mel punching her out with one attack. :P


Because she was a bit of a romantic she ate the floor yeah, but she was also like in her 20s (and she did save everyone's life in a real fight) -chances are Jaya today is one mean Nidraa (if she still lives or ever did) .


And I beg to differ on Quain too, I'd say she was more of an out-of-control freak :P

Teasing aside though, the only instance in comic where Sarv is described as being a control freak is in reference to her handling of her family and given Jaya's "Ill read myself to death" crap, Sun'ya's taste in women (commoners being a serious hell no for Sharen) and Nihi's inability to keep her hands to herself I'm going to have to go with beyond that one issue, she's pretty bad at keeping it up. I mean Sillice seemed to think Siksi was the most honorable ass-kicking ally one could have, and she wasnt exactly right about that either.
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Re: Clan Populations

Postby Junglefowl26 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:20 pm

It CANT be that bad or the Highland Raiders would all die/age badly before they made it home. Sure they cant live all alone in the middle of no where without mana bearing vegetation for long periods of time, but I doubt anywhere in Chel wouldnt be out in the middle of no where. Good point about them not needing as many people/or as much property for farms due to technology though

Well, the Highland Raiders do have to frequently transfer to other units in Chel to avoid MDD (Mana Deprivation Disease), and Mel was worried that a simple trip to Felde would cause her to turn all old and wrinkled...

Though Quill is older than Mel and regularly spends decades away from the city while only staying for short periods of time...and Dhal of stone company is around Mel's age at least and she spends most of her time traveling in a small group...
Maybe some handle it better than others?

Wait, wasn't Mel planning to go to the surface with Ariel earlier? was just planning on wasting away then..and why not try going to Felde....


Well, anyway, I meant that most farming was done in small villages...cities didn't have enough space for it really, especailly underground.

Because she was a bit of a romantic she ate the floor yeah, but she was also like in her 20s (and she did save everyone's life in a real fight) -chances are Jaya today is one mean Nidraa (if she still lives or ever did) .

Heh heh...true. I would still think that she prefers research to fighting, even what she researches can be useful in a fight.

Teasing aside though, the only instance in comic where Sarv is described as being a control freak is in reference to her handling of her family and given Jaya's "Ill read myself to death" crap, Sun'ya's taste in women (commoners being a serious hell no for Sharen) and Nihi's inability to keep her hands to herself I'm going to have to go with beyond that one issue, she's pretty bad at keeping it up. I mean Sillice seemed to think Siksi was the most honorable ass-kicking ally one could have, and she wasnt exactly right about that either.

I don't think that is the only occasion where her controlling tendencies have been brought up though...somewhere else is where she is directly called a control freak.
Not to mention she was wholly supportive of Yae killing Vy since it "removed an embarrassment to the clan". Combined with Silice's comment about how she didn't her descendents much choice about the tainting...well, one has to wonder if she has "removed an embarrassment to the clan" herself.

Certainly it is true that she can't control every aspect of the lives of her rather large family, but I imagine her daughters and sons at least are held to high standards, with lower generations getting more freedom.

(Though is Sunya one of her line? I mean, the Overseer he reported to was, but she also talked with Sota, who is Zala's grandson)
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Re: Clan Populations

Postby Smokehammer » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:48 pm

Yeah, Sun'ya is def Sarv's son, (an older one too by the looks of him, darker hair -marks by his eyes -her first born maybe?) he calls Vidhi sister. I dont recall any thing else in MA but that page referring to Sarv as a control freak though, but Ill take you word for it, however I'd say saving Yae's life was another piece of evidence kinda perverting what Sillice's was implying. If its ok to kill your children when they step out of line, then you'd think that while Sarv would have still agreed Yae did Zala a favor she wouldnt have stopped Zala from killing her. *shrug* That's why I try not to base characterizations on rumors, and go with actions but even then its somewhat open for interpretation (especially when you've seen so little of the character). Im pretty sure thats what's happening with Mel too, she and Snadhya were teasing about the MDD and their ages(that would be more logical) but she could just as easily have been serious, but we'd really need to see it happen (and get an updated time-line -given with the current one, Snadhya cant really be that *cringe* young).

On the other note, I dont know if they'd try farming in small villages under the circumstances though, even if they can spread out a little bit (I wonder how mana saturation fields grow ). You'd think it would be fairly integrated into the city itself. Like here's a row of homes carved into stalactites, surrounded by sroom fields next to a brewery, and some shops. All we've seen so far is down town, and the "rich bitch" areas of the city really -or the war torn places, we've never gotten a really nice glimpse of middle-class Chel to tell.
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Re: Clan Populations

Postby MEK1724 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:09 am

Smokehammer wrote: I dont recall any thing else in MA but that page referring to Sarv as a control freak though

Silice says that Sarv probably killed the ones which tried to run away , or who stood against the mandatory tainting to hard . *hmmm*
Also Phani's chibi Sarv outright called herself such . Also whilst not that damning , Sarv's kids can't party as hearty as Zala's kids . Also I think Quain and Sarv's parenting style were said to be similar by Suntiger .... somewhere . *hmmm*
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Re: Clan Populations

Postby Smokehammer » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:06 pm

Ah, so its still all rumor.

MEK1724 wrote: Also I think Quain and Sarv's parenting style were said to be similar by Suntiger .... somewhere . *hmmm*
Really? Then why didnt Nihi'liir have to earn her own prosthetic limb by juggling on a street corner for donations? I dunno guys, I'm just not feeling the whole Quain-in-teal vibe for Siksi.
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Re: Clan Populations

Postby MEK1724 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:28 pm

Smokehammer wrote:Really? Then why didnt Nihi'liir have to earn her own prosthetic limb by juggling on a street corner for donations? I dunno guys, I'm just not feeling the whole Quain-in-teal vibe for Siksi.

He says so here .
I mean she's probably not that bad a mother , provided you're not being an insubordinate/traitorous little shit and endangering/hurting the rest of your family (I assume that's how Sarv rationalizes the punishments she deals out) , then you might get some pretty severe justice , but I really don't see how she'd have a reputation for being strict with her kids , from Zala and Silice's families , even up to speculating that she executed the anti-tainting ones , without actually being strict . *hmmm*
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Re: Clan Populations

Postby Junglefowl26 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:54 pm

Smokehammer wrote:Ah, so its still all rumor.

MEK1724 wrote: Also I think Quain and Sarv's parenting style were said to be similar by Suntiger .... somewhere . *hmmm*
Really? Then why didnt Nihi'liir have to earn her own prosthetic limb by juggling on a street corner for donations? I dunno guys, I'm just not feeling the whole Quain-in-teal vibe for Siksi.

Well, wehn Sang got all her limbs cut off, Quain personally paid for all four replacements and helped her get used to them.

Similarly, there are implications that Quain tried everything she could to get Laele back to normal and is still irrationally hoping she will recover. Quain makes you work for her loyalty and respect, but once you have it, then she'll be for you when you need help. Perhaps Sarv is the same way.

And while it is true Nihli doesn't give the impression of one with a strict upbringing (if anything she strikes me as acting spoiled)...but I think you looked at Ariel now you would have a tough time figuring out that she had a horrible childhood.

Not to mention that many Drow mothers don't really raise their kids anyway. Quain's parenting style didn't matter that much since Ariel only saw Quain like three or four times in her childhood. Who knows who raised any given Sharen character, regardless of bloodline.

All speculation of course, but I think the law of conversation of detail is important here: no one would have mentioned Sarv's controlling personality if it wasn't true.
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Re: Clan Populations

Postby Pitdragon » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:11 pm

Smokehammer wrote:I dont recall any thing else in MA but that page referring to Sarv as a control freak though, but Ill take you word for it, however I'd say saving Yae's life was another piece of evidence kinda perverting what Sillice's was implying. If its ok to kill your children when they step out of line, then you'd think that while Sarv would have still agreed Yae did Zala a favor she wouldnt have stopped Zala from killing her.


Well, there are two reasons why Yae was spared. One was what Sarv said - she satisfied the issue of Zala having a child that would not follow the clan line. Added on to that is the "tradition" of Twinning seems to imply the stronger twin, regardless of true birth or not, gets to take over. So she's sorta saying, "You follow that tradition, you abide by it. You have a worthier daughter now, one that does what is necessary for the Clan, not your personal pride."

The other is simple - she's rubbing Zala's face in the situation, bloodying her nose a bit. Zala abided by it because she was still playing the game of "meek sister" and wouldn't lose it all over that singular situation. And later she found use for the incident, to twist it to her own means. But Sarv believed both that Yaeminira earned her spot for getting rid of a problem (Vy'chriel not following the requirements and being protected by Zala still) and that it put Zala in her place for trying to bend the rules around one of her kids (and a reminder of "who's boss" perhaps in Sarv's mind). She wouldn't back up Zala for failing to control her own kids, and at the same time she wants to control Zala since she has ideas she will be Ill'haress sooner or later. The way she handled Yae's situation was an attempt to mock and control Zala and her line, in a sense.
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Re: Clan Populations

Postby Smokehammer » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:51 pm

MEK1724 wrote:He says so here .
I mean she's probably not that bad a mother , provided you're not being an insubordinate/traitorous little shit and endangering/hurting the rest of your family (I assume that's how Sarv rationalizes the punishments she deals out) , then you might get some pretty severe justice , but I really don't see how she'd have a reputation for being strict with her kids , from Zala and Silice's families , even up to speculating that she executed the anti-tainting ones , without actually being strict . *hmmm*


Eh, there's a large probably in there. Best guess on that would be, Sunny was looking at it from a whole "only the strong(should) survive" philosophy of the hardcore warrior, which I say is directly negated where Sarv is concerned by Jaya's nature and Nihi'liir's continued haughty attitude, even after losing to a total candy-ass pansy.

As to why she gets a bad rap from Sillice and Zala, well who the fork knows? That could be 100s of different things not the least of which is of course, she is a tyrant, but her kids more or less ignore her in ways they can get away with -but that they can get away with them is where I was making my point, she's not THAT bad *shrug*

Junglefowl26 wrote:[All speculation of course, but I think the law of conversation of detail is important here: no one would have mentioned Sarv's controlling personality if it wasn't true.

True, true but I think my original point was, given the things we've actually seen, she cant be as bad as Phani and Sillice make it out to be.

Junglefowl26 wrote:Well, wehn Sang got all her limbs cut off, Quain personally paid for all four replacements and helped her get used to them.


I knew that would come up -Sang was her buddy and had proved she was a loyal worthy companion (Lae too), she wasnt one of her kids. Given Quain has been down right cruel to Syph, Ariel and Mel its pretty much a surefire bet, she would have shit on Ar in Nihi's position -where as everyone shit themselves for Faen's safety because she dared mangle one of Siksi's kids (and she ended up with a golem limb). Perhaps Quain treats those she deems worthy with that level of respect/implied vengeance but she sure as shit isnt like that just because youre her bloodline, clanswomen or daughter.

Pitdragon wrote:
Well, there are two reasons why Yae was spared...


Maybe. Then again it could have just been, "Youre a good kid and a great fighter, welcome to the family full time."

Edit: Actually now that i really think about it, the main dilemma could stem from the fact that Jaya was a critter what? 300-500 years ago? Theres a huge chance back then that Sarv had a totally different attitude than she does today. *blush*
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Re: Clan Populations

Postby Junglefowl26 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:25 am

True, true but I think my original point was, given the things we've actually seen, she cant be as bad as Phani and Sillice make it out to be.

I think your original point was that the Sharen were all warriors, and we were talking about how one of her daughters was shunned because she wasn't a warrior, and somehow we ended up here.

where as everyone shit themselves for Faen's safety because she dared mangle one of Siksi's kids (and she ended up with a golem limb).

I thought she was more in trouble because of the braindead teacher than Nihi, and we really don't know how many resources Sarv was putting into looking for Faen. Sure, staying at school wasn't safe and it didn't look like the Suls cared enough about Faen to protect her, but after she came to live with the Sarghress only a few months later, no one seemed to care about the incident (now granted, part of that was there bigger fish to fry for all parties involved now)

But more importantly: similar does not mean the same. Just because Sarv is more protective of her own doesn't mean that she is super huggy fun mom of the year.

Maybe Diva would be a better comparison: she was more than willing to wipe out a great clan for daring to attack one of her children...but she was at best a horrible nag and at worst emotionally manipulative and verbally abusive.
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Re: Clan Populations

Postby Pitdragon » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:36 am

Smokehammer wrote:Maybe. Then again it could have just been, "Youre a good kid and a great fighter, welcome to the family full time."


Could've, but Sarv stomping to Snadhya about getting Zala under control kinda makes me think that even if she liked what Yae would bring to the table (strength, loyalty, etc), it was also an opportunity to put Zala in her place too. Especially since she wasn't happy with Snadhya's response on how to "handle" Zala - Sarv would go a route like promoting more Yaeminiras and undermining Zala than outright slaughtering her line, since Sarv seems sorta done with the idea of whittling down the clan further. Even Zala's plan seems to not necessarily call for Sarv's line to fall but for them to submit to her once she strolls in with strong backing to her rule. Yaeminira might have been an asset in Sarv's mind, but at the same time she was another tool in the pissing match between Sarv and Zala, where anything that forces the other to bow to their will, for any reason, is a minor win and a way to test how to out maneuver the other.

Which is sort of the thing Snadhya has been aiming for by allowing both on board - whether it was her original intent or not, she now is gunning for the idea that the two keep the clan as split as possible. And the little things that undermine authority are going to add to that as much as their more obvious divides.
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