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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Catriana on Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:19 pm

You have not asked me a question that I can see in the last few replies, so I am unsure of what you are talking about and quite frankly, it doesn't really matter. I'm not trying to argue with you; I never was. I've stated my views on the subject, and that is all they are. Views. Concerns that what you are doing is ultimately going to put more pressure and responsibility on the GM than is necessary. In the end, it is Suntiger's decision whether or not he wants to take your idea on.

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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby laserkid on Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:33 am

Before everyone freaks out. I'm Trying to do this: http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive/20 ... 12p010.JPG Not nuke its mind or summon it or something.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Jaibyrd on Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:46 am

Well, if ya lose a ton of weight suddenly and get the nervous twitches then we were forewarned! ^^; :P

Are ya gonna cover your eyes too in the near future? ;)

Hrm, would be interesting to see what kind of range you have, if any. I mean, I wish the pic would get fixed and give us some idea how close or how far (or how big) that dragon is as I don't think you've trained to stretch yourself out that far, no?

Just curious, that's all. Either way, good luck.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Catriana on Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:05 pm

Ah! Dalvy, I noticed your list on the current MS' onboard the ship. Jan'avin should be removed from the list, as she's my character and I currently have Ninorok active. She's back at the colony (but she is a MS).
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Dalvyserran on Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:07 pm

got it, I'll change it
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby goblin6 on Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:23 pm

Well, San's advice passed and Suntiger will be keeping track of our character's affinities. Though going through the affinity thread, it seems half of the players write themselves as having little to no MS training (myself included). Having an affinity is worthless if you don't have the proper training and experience to put it to good use. Might I suggest that if there's any available professional MS, can someone post an advice where the MS train those with affinities in how to use them? Or maybe a non-MS post the advice and enlist the aid of a MS(with at least one MS voting for it) to help them practice. What does everyone think about this idea?
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Jaibyrd on Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:44 pm

goblin6 wrote:Well, San's advice passed and Suntiger will be keeping track of our character's affinities. Though going through the affinity thread, it seems half of the players write themselves as having little to no MS training (myself included). Having an affinity is worthless if you don't have the proper training and experience to put it to good use. Might I suggest that if there's any available professional MS, can someone post an advice where the MS train those with affinities in how to use them? Or maybe a non-MS post the advice and enlist the aid of a MS(with at least one MS voting for it) to help them practice. What does everyone think about this idea?


Back in ptp2 when Thalar was gm she told us the MS's already knew what we had learned in ptp1, in other words Lua'nar and Tali taught the others earth and fire and we learned ice from one of the harvesters. I see no reason why Lua'nar didn't or wouldn't teach new MS's everything she knew, so we should all know earth, fire and ice if you are an MS.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby goblin6 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:48 am

Jaibyrd wrote:
goblin6 wrote:Well, San's advice passed and Suntiger will be keeping track of our character's affinities. Though going through the affinity thread, it seems half of the players write themselves as having little to no MS training (myself included). Having an affinity is worthless if you don't have the proper training and experience to put it to good use. Might I suggest that if there's any available professional MS, can someone post an advice where the MS train those with affinities in how to use them? Or maybe a non-MS post the advice and enlist the aid of a MS(with at least one MS voting for it) to help them practice. What does everyone think about this idea?


Back in ptp2 when Thalar was gm she told us the MS's already knew what we had learned in ptp1, in other words Lua'nar and Tali taught the others earth and fire and we learned ice from one of the harvesters. I see no reason why Lua'nar didn't or wouldn't teach new MS's everything she knew, so we should all know earth, fire and ice if you are an MS.


But back then, we had a class system. A few clicks, BOOM, you're an MS with all the skills that entails. But now, things are a bit different and with a new GM who operates on different rules then Thalar. Currently, there's is no class system per say, but each of our characters are put into certain professions depending on the advices they posted, what they voted for, and background info from character bios shape us into certain roles. Durlyn for example is classified as a warrior, he can post MS-related advices, doesn't mean he'll be shown doing it. Why? It's because he's not an MS, he might have basic MS training, but not advance MS training. Not all of us are MS or have the skills and training equal to MS veterans. I'm probably coming off as over thinking it (and I'm okay if anyone points that out), but are we too assume those with affinities but no MS training will be able to utilize their affinities to their full potential when it is convenient for us?

So that's why I think it's a good idea to do a follow up of San's advice. We now know people's affinities, now we should train them into using it proficiently. If it's not shown in comic or ST didn't say each of us are able to use our affinities properly in one of his threads, lets not assume all of us can use affinities.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Jaibyrd on Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:16 am

What Thalar did and set up was not erased because she stepped down. She stipulated this after that stupid system wasn't being used anymore.

Why does this have to be made into something so dang complicated?

Why can't it be said if you choose to become an MS, Lua trains you in earth, fire and ice and then you can research or practice as you see fit? Or even another MS could train, the older folks take a new folk to train up to a certain standard and leave it at that?
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Ash'arion on Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:28 am

Jaibyrd wrote:Why does this have to be made into something so dang complicated?


Because it's dealing with magic in a multi-player game. In order to facilitate fair use, even a magic system as simple as the one Kern devised requires complex rules to reduce the possibility of someone trying to abuse the system.

Jaibyrd wrote:Why can't it be said if you choose to become an MS, Lua trains you in earth, fire and ice and then you can research or practice as you see fit? Or even another MS could train, the older folks take a new folk to train up to a certain standard and leave it at that?


I'd think that unless you're a native TK and have one of those elements as an affinity, the training required would be much more time-demanding than productive without another timeskip. Even then, mana art training is highly time-consuming, most likely in the 7-10 year minimum demonstrated by the special Val kids at Ortho, before it is possible to use in the combat and/or high-utility fields. You said earlier that even Mana Spec teachers would only be able to teach users of different affinities the absolute basics of how to use them, and for more advanced training, they would have to find an affinity-matched teacher somewhere. The end result for trying to push it without one would be the newbie MSs hitting a wall similar to the one some of the engineers are currently running into: they have no more than an idea of what they're doing, or how.

I like to think that we as players aren't doing this just to make our characters special, but rather to get a better look at what pieces we all brought before we try adding them to this giant puzzle that makes up our colony, and also to make sure that they fit in a way the GMs will allow them to.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Catriana on Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:27 am

Ash'arion wrote:
Jaibyrd wrote:Why does this have to be made into something so dang complicated?


Because it's dealing with magic in a multi-player game. In order to facilitate fair use, even a magic system as simple as the one Kern devised requires complex rules to reduce the possibility of someone trying to abuse the system.


I strongly disagree, mostly because we had a simplistic system since PtP's beginning and it's worked just fine through macro-managing. It does not have to be complicated. The 'because magic' argument is irrelevant simply through the history of the game's mechanics.

There needs to be some sort of understanding here. Us veterans have had it beaten into our heads (screamed at in some occasions) that micromanaging in this game is a NO NO. Period. No exceptions. Any and all attempts to make the game more complicated through micromanaging ended up in some rather vicious backlash for that individual(s). So now that all these micromanaging attempts are being made, it honestly makes no sense to some of us. It feels unnecessary because it's always been unnecessary. So please keep that in mind, because as far as I see it, there does not have to be any micromanaging feature in this game in order for it to function. At all. It's fluff.

That being said, I understand that PtP3 has become more individualistic concerning the EA, and by its very nature promotes the idea of more micromanaging features. So if Suntiger wishes to take those on, far be it from us old hats to complain.

You know, PtP has this history of polarizations. It's either one way or the other. My way, or the highway. Each side refuses to see the merits of the other and "why are you being so freaking stubborn?" (that's a quote and a rhetorical question, I'm not actually asking) The answer is likely because the other side is being equally bullheaded and refuse to compromise. If this clan actually worked together instead of spreading into cliques and fighting each other over every little idea, a heck of a lot more stuff could be accomplished.

Because as far as I see it from both sides, there's definitely room for compromise if you'd stop shutting each other down.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Jaibyrd on Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:25 pm

I agree with Cat in that: 1. Magic does NOT have to be complicated in order to be fair so it cannot be abused. Nothing ever needs to be complicated, because the more complicated it is the more it can be abused.

Right now what we have is already being abused.

2. It does feel like there is no willingness to work together or compromise at all in this group, which is just sad. I offered two suggestions, either Lua (as she is the MS teacher, that has been established over PtP1,2, and 3) or all older MS's take on a newbie to train in earth, fire and ice. Where did your time frame come from Ash? As in PtP1 it did not take that long for Lua or Tali to train in these at Ortho.

Lua and Tali left for Ortho the first time: http://www.drowtales.com/~pathtopower/a ... p?sid=6487 (Day 19-20)
Lua and Tali came back knowing Earth: http://www.drowtales.com/~pathtopower/a ... p?sid=6519 (Day 21-22)

Thus, it only took Lua and Tali 3 to 4 days at most to learn Earth. Same for Fire, go back and check the archives.

Plus, Ash I am curious, where did I say such things? Please link the post and quote me for my own edification.


Still, the main point stands, it seems like all we ever do is argue. And we could get more done if we just talked and hashed things out. Is that not what this thread is for? However it seems like whenever I turn around no one talks things out and everyone just does whatever they want and if we keep doing that it's gonna be the death of this game.

*shrugs*
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby suntiger745 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:54 pm

Really, the list of affinities and high art training is just so I can get a larger pool of characters to drawn from when deciding who to show in a page.
So far I have tried to give some screen time to a variety of people but limited knowledge has kept it to a fairly small pool (and sometimes because it wouldn't make sense to switch out a character just for the sake of switching).

Just to prevent misunderstandings in case the rules were different before:
Sorcery/affinity to an element means it's naturally easier for someone to work with that element.
High art is learning to manipulate an element (or pure mana) by studying, even if you don't have a natural affinity for it.
It also covers learning to manipulate more than one element, a hallmark of a mana specialist in the PTP terms.

Using earth as an example:
Someone with earth sorcery and no training is roughly equivalent to someone with basic high art training.
The person with the sorcery doesn't have to put in as much effort to get the same result but at the same time the effect of the manipulation doesn't have the same precision as a high art user would have.
High art users have to learn precision and efficiency when studying because it is harder to manipulate an element they don't have an affinity for to get the same results.

And following that, someone who has earth sorcery and has applied training to it will be as precise as a high art user but will be more powerful.
Or can achieve the same effect with less effort. The later might be more relevant for the tei'kaliath because of how mana poor the surface is.


The sorcery listing isn't meant to be something where I keep track of how powerful people are or mow much they progress though. That would probably be more micro managing than is necessary.

I'm adding a note here too since I updated the original post:
Edit for clarification: Mana specialists can list one strong or two weak elements they have high art training in, in addition to their sorcery.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby laserkid on Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:58 pm

Ack, was wring up something similar tried to post and then the GM steals all the fun.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby goblin6 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:04 pm

laserkid wrote:Ack, was wring up something similar tried to post and then the GM steals all the fun.


He's the GM, he gets a pass. Still, it's good to get word of mouth from the GMs themselves for clarification.
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