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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby minalia on Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:30 pm

We brought the flute onboard on the ship i made very sure of that. I wrote that detail in the advice where i brought the new prototype golem helmets onboard as well.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Dalvyserran on Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:28 pm

since we have time to kill, some of us figured it would be a good time to do a simple affinity test to see who has what *officially*, like http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=778. A knowledge base of known affinities would be useful.

the advice will go something like this: "Administer an affinity test on the willing for MS purposes" in EA

The reason being is that we can't quite depend on the RPs, and it'd be better to have some people shown with an affinity
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Jaibyrd on Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:51 pm

Um, sorry but that is a waste of time and a turn because ST would have to assign people an affinity, which takes away our control of our characters.

Players should know their characters affinity because it is something they choose for their character.

If they choose not to put one, we cannot and should not force them via the comic just because we want certain affinities for certain projects.

That is putting 'our' desires over the enjoyment of people playing the game.

We do not need to chase off players here.

Why don't we instead do as we discussed earlier and ask Anji and/or Durlyn if Durlyn can generate nether aura outside of his body to practice sealing or hit it with the flute since everyone seems so on about that.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Jaibyrd on Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:13 pm

If this is even to work, one someone should PM Suntiger to see if ST is even up to doing it as this is a ton of work put on the GM unnecessarily.

And there should be a condition that if one votes for that they need to PM Suntiger with their chosen affinity so that it's less work and can be done and shown in one turn.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Catriana on Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:18 pm

Dalvyserran wrote:since we have time to kill, some of us figured it would be a good time to do a simple affinity test to see who has what *officially*, like http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=778. A knowledge base of known affinities would be useful.

the advice will go something like this: "Administer an affinity test on the willing for MS purposes" in EA

The reason being is that we can't quite depend on the RPs, and it'd be better to have some people shown with an affinity


That sounds...time consuming(and headache inducing). Why don't people just put what RP affinity they have in their player profile? That way, if it's needed, ST can go and look at profiles of whoever he decides will show in the comic. If people don't do it, then they have no affinity.

This should be a choice, not something given to us. I can't support ST 'assigning' affinities, mostly because we've never had our jobs or anything 'assigned' to us. It has always been a choice, and should remain that way.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Ash'arion on Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:16 am

I see the logic in disagreeing with this idea, but affinities is something that needs to be tracked by our GMs in PTP main. As has been demonstrated with the glider test, they're not just rp flavor. They provide unique advantages in given situations, therefore it needs to be established who can do what. This isn't a matter of an individual's personal desire driving the actions of the clan any more than many past advices have been, and at least it's harmless.

Additionally, it is not a waste of a turn, especially not when compared to my failure to notice ST's subtle hint that I hit a wall with the mana cannon development project (I think I wasted at least two turns with that), or Min's efforts at doing everything under the sun that resulted in her character being put to sleep, or many of the things the ferals do in general. There will actually be a visible benefit to this test being carried out, as the players will then be able to learn to and try to apply their characters' affinities to their professions of choice in a manner that is both unique and beneficial. And if practicing with mana extensively strengthens a person's mana pool, then a number of people learning to use and practicing their mana arts will slowly but surely boost the airship crew's collective mana pool.

Catriana wrote:That sounds...time consuming(and headache inducing). Why don't people just put what RP affinity they have in their player profile? That way, if it's needed, ST can go and look at profiles of whoever he decides will show in the comic. If people don't do it, then they have no affinity.


Where in our profiles would we put this? In that big block of text where our self-description goes? I don't think that's ever looked at by the GMs, and even if it was, it can be edited at any time. Hence the worry some of us have that the GMs will think that we just picked whatever affinities would be convenient for what we're trying to do, rather than ones that really apply to our characters.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Catriana on Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:34 am

But that's exactly how it works in Relic Hunters. You input your own information, like your affinities, height, weight, etc. The only difference is that people would have the option of doing so, instead of it being mandatory. The system has worked fairly well so far.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Ash'arion on Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:08 pm

That is... not how it works in Relic Hunters. In Relic Hunters, you get either a mana affinity OR a specialized weapon proficiency, the latter of which I'm still not exactly clear on the benefits of, especially since the mana specialists can still choose pretty unique weapons to go out exploring with.

Edit: And we're not trying to deny people a choice here. I don't understand why you and Jai'byrd insist that we are. We're trying to bring the option to a better light and provide it with more clarity.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Jaibyrd on Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:21 pm

Um, I used to be GM in RH and Cat has been playing RH far longer than you Ash.

You do choose your own mana affinity with your RH character.

Such as my Zez'vrae has a light affinity, but is a weapons-specialist. Which means while he can use his light affinity some, he's waaaaaay better at fighting with a sword as the mana arts never interested him that much as in RH you can either be a Weapons specialist (who are the fighters) or Mana specialist (who can use the mana).

Thus, if people just put the affinities they'd like their character to be in the description section like we do in RH here in PtP, then we'd know what their affinities were and it would less work for the GM.

We used to have each player fill out a little blurb of such info regardless if they RP'd or not: viewtopic.php?f=101&t=10927#p448705

And then Kirio kindly turned it into the Census: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=10920#p448583

Something that sadly we don't do anymore thus we don't have a listing of who has what affinity.

Thus what we're suggesting if for people to put it in their char descriptions just like we do in RH, which would clear this issue up completely and neatly.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Catriana on Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:12 pm

Ash'arion wrote:That is... not how it works in Relic Hunters. In Relic Hunters, you get either a mana affinity OR a specialized weapon proficiency, the latter of which I'm still not exactly clear on the benefits of, especially since the mana specialists can still choose pretty unique weapons to go out exploring with.

Edit: And we're not trying to deny people a choice here. I don't understand why you and Jai'byrd insist that we are. We're trying to bring the option to a better light and provide it with more clarity.


Here is the RH character sheet template taken from here:

RACE: (1)
GENDER: (2)
HEIGHT: (3)
BUILD: (4)
EYE COLOR: (5)
HAIR: (6)
DETAILS: (7)

WEAPON SPECIALTY: (8)
MANA SPECIALTY: (9)

PERSONALITY NOTES: (10)


Everyone gets one weapon(at least) and mana specialty. Mana specialists tend to be limited to the type of weapon (ie: They cannot wield heavy weapons or 2H weapons) whereas weapon specialists can only have a basic mana affinity. So in that sense yes, those who choose to go weapons specialist do so with the understanding that they cannot have an affinity in game. Roleplaying is a different story.

The reason I say the choice is being removed is because you are asking for Suntiger to give people affinities, when it has always been player choice. The reason for this is that an individual character's affinity honestly shouldn't have that huge of an impact on the game, especially not in Path to Power, where there people aren't divided into squads for easier management.

There is nothing to clarify, what is being attempted is to have the GM make individual affinities 'canon', and it's wholly unnecessary unless he wants to take the painstaking job of incorporating every single person's affinity into some sort of database for whatever random instance may come up. It is micromanaging, and that is something PtP has been against since it's conception.

If Suntiger wants to take that route, more power to him. It's 100% his option as to how he wants to run the campaign. But in my opinion, which is simply my view on things and should not be taken as an attack on the idea or the individual who came up with it, it's unnecessary and puts way too much pressure/stress on the GM. If you do something like this for one, you really need to it for all, otherwise there's eventually going to be a mess.

What Jai'byrd is talking about with Kirio was an extensive and exhausting process. He went and took well over 200+ players and consistently updated all of their personal information with painstaking detail. He spent what, two years (maybe more) on his census? No one could, or wanted to, do what he did without taking a tremendous amount of time out of their lives. And he did it because he loved the game and that didn't matter. But Kirio wasn't a GM, so he had that kind of time.

I am not saying the idea of mana affinities shouldn't be explored, I'm saying your method is micromanaging and there are much simpler ways of doing what you're aiming for.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby goblin6 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:21 pm

So should we make a new census to keep track of people's affinity? That way, the GMs don't have to check each person's profile one by one. Because character profile can be rewritten by the owner at anytime, the GMs don't always keep track and there's the possibility players will change their affinity on the fly when ever it's convenient for them. Open a new thread, players' post request on what affinity they want and the thread poster makes the changes, once that's done, it's final and cannot be changed.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Ash'arion on Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:40 pm

Catriana wrote:Everyone gets one weapon(at least) and mana specialty. Mana specialists tend to be limited to the type of weapon (ie: They cannot wield heavy weapons or 2H weapons) whereas weapon specialists can only have a basic mana affinity. So in that sense yes, those who choose to go weapons specialist do so with the understanding that they cannot have an affinity in game. Roleplaying is a different story.


We're not talking about roleplaying here. The rules of roleplaying RH aren't nearly as strict as those regarding roleplaying in PTP, and even then, we still get away with a lot more with the latter than we would in-game. That's like saying you don't have to worry about the life expectancy of a light bulb because the sun will always be there.

Catriana wrote:The reason I say the choice is being removed is because you are asking for Suntiger to give people affinities, when it has always been player choice. The reason for this is that an individual character's affinity honestly shouldn't have that huge of an impact on the game, especially not in Path to Power, where there people aren't divided into squads for easier management.


Again, the idea here was not to deny the players a choice. If they voted for the option, they should PM their chosen affinities to ST. If they voted and don't send the PM, it could just as easily be said that their mana affinities could not be determined or that they missed the test. Also it does have a big impact, regardless of our organization or lack thereof, because our clan is in the position where the presence or absence of the smallest contributions has the potential to be critical. And things are only going to get worse if we get dragged into the District War.

goblin6 wrote:So should we make a new census to keep track of people's affinity? That way, the GMs don't have to check each person's profile one by one. Because character profile can be rewritten by the owner at anytime, the GMs don't always keep track and there's the possibility players will change their affinity on the fly when ever it's convenient for them. Open a new thread, players' post request on what affinity they want and the thread poster makes the changes, once that's done, it's final and cannot be changed.


This was basically the idea. Dycle was already doing something to this effect earlier, but I don't think he has the affinities for the newer players (I know I didn't see mine up there), and I don't know how we could flag his post as something the GMs could use as an easy frame of reference.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Jaibyrd on Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:41 pm

goblin6 wrote:So should we make a new census to keep track of people's affinity? That way, the GMs don't have to check each person's profile one by one. Because character profile can be rewritten by the owner at anytime, the GMs don't always keep track and there's the possibility players will change their affinity on the fly when ever it's convenient for them. Open a new thread, players' post request on what affinity they want and the thread poster makes the changes, once that's done, it's final and cannot be changed.


Not unless someone wants to do that.

Again, like Cat said, that's micromanaging. PtP was never about micromanaging. Ever.

This information which may or may not be nice for us to know, in the grand sceme of the game is not really needed for the GM to make mandatory.

As you can see even in Kirio's census, most people never chose an affinity because even then it really didn't matter at all.

When characters were sent to Ortho they didn't train in their affinities even then! They were just trained in the element of that group's choosing, which is why the Harvesters learned ice, and the Warriors learned shielding (which isn't an affinity, but still).

Maybe if I explain something you will understand why I am 'mad' or so against this nonsense:

Back in PtP1 there were people who paid to read the comic and that's it (as back then you had to pay), they never made characters and very rarely voted. We called them 'faceless' and there was a bunch of people who wanted it to be mandatory for them to make characters and vote.

This was wrong and was something Kern constantly squashed because this was forcing them to do something they didn't want to do. If they wanted to pay for just reading the comic, then that was their right. Forcing them to do anything they didn't want to was just wrong.

Just like this. Overall in PtP we all start as blank slates, thus even if you chose an affinity (like Lua's is Earth) doesn't mean they can do anything with it. Lua never did anything with hers for a long, long time as it didn't matter. It was just something nice we could choose as players.

Now, even if you keep saying 'well if they vote for it, then it's their choice'. Is it? Do they understand their choice really has no impact on the game? It is what they learn in game that counts instead? That you are taking something that is completely optional and making it seemingly mandatory to those that don't know any better? And don't tell me there are folks that don't know any better. There are as I have been in touch with several.

Plus it is aggravating that it was posted as if to make discussion before it was put up, but then it was put up anyway without waiting for said discussion? Then why even post here to discuss? Isn't that the point of the forums to discuss? If you're just going to put it up anyway, why even bother to post like other people's opinions matter when they obviously don't?

With that, I'm done discussing this. If people still don't get it, I don't know how else to explain it to you. ^^;

Ash'arion wrote:
Catriana wrote:Everyone gets one weapon(at least) and mana specialty. Mana specialists tend to be limited to the type of weapon (ie: They cannot wield heavy weapons or 2H weapons) whereas weapon specialists can only have a basic mana affinity. So in that sense yes, those who choose to go weapons specialist do so with the understanding that they cannot have an affinity in game. Roleplaying is a different story.


We're not talking about roleplaying here. The rules of roleplaying RH aren't nearly as strict as those regarding roleplaying in PTP, and even then, we still get away with a lot more with the latter than we would in-game. That's like saying you don't have to worry about the life expectancy of a light bulb because the sun will always be there.


We weren't talking about RP either. That RH info is what is used IN GAME, not RP. Still, my above points are made in that unlike in RH where it does matter, affinities do not matter really in PtP.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Catriana on Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:05 pm

I had this long reply written, but honestly it boils down to this:

It's ST's decision. The vote is up, and if he decides to take on a micromanaging project of this magnitude, good on him.

I am genuinely confused as to why going through this entire voting process and running a census, which takes a heck of a lot of time, is more convenient than just having paying members put an affinity in their profile for ST to look up IF he decides to even use them.

The vote option's purpose, as you are explaining it, excludes people who are not here, cannot be here, future members, those who miss voting, or those vote for other options they feel have more relevance. Unless you plan to add this vote option every update, it would be more prudent to offer a precedent that everyone can get involved in.
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Re: Mana Arts Development Team

Postby Ash'arion on Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:10 pm

Jaibyrd wrote:Plus it is aggravating that it was posted as if to make discussion before it was put up, but then it was put up anyway without waiting for said discussion? Then why even post here to discuss? Isn't that the point of the forums to discuss? If you're just going to put it up anyway, why even bother to post like other people's opinions matter when they obviously don't?


I can understand the irritation over this. But whether or not it's approved by everybody seldom determines if an advice is put up, only more often how many votes it gets. I think Dalvyserran wanted a chance to try to win your support, or at least a less vehement denial, but it's becoming clear that doesn't seem to be possible. However, there are some things about what you said that I am not going to just let slide.

Jaibyrd wrote:Again, like Cat said, that's micromanaging. PtP was never about micromanaging. Ever.

This information which may or may not be nice for us to know, in the grand sceme of the game is not really needed for the GM to make mandatory.

As you can see even in Kirio's census, most people never chose an affinity because even then it really didn't matter at all.

When characters were sent to Ortho they didn't train in their affinities even then! They were just trained in the element of that group's choosing, which is why the Harvesters learned ice, and the Warriors learned shielding (which isn't an affinity, but still).

Maybe if I explain something you will understand why I am 'mad' or so against this nonsense:

Back in PtP1 there were people who paid to read the comic and that's it (as back then you had to pay), they never made characters and very rarely voted. We called them 'faceless' and there was a bunch of people who wanted it to be mandatory for them to make characters and vote.

This was wrong and was something Kern constantly squashed because this was forcing them to do something they didn't want to do. If they wanted to pay for just reading the comic, then that was their right. Forcing them to do anything they didn't want to was just wrong.


I don't see this as micromanaging. I believe mana affinities are an important detail that shouldn't be overlooked. I also believe both that just because nobody's thought of a creative application for their affinities in prior versions of PTP, that doesn't mean they're without merit, and that you equating what we're doing to past attempts by other people to force other people to change how they enjoy the game is pretty reprehensible. WE ARE NOT FORCING ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING! They don't even have to vote for the option. And I like how you left out the part where I mentioned there's a way for ST to just not give people who failed to send a PM a result on their test without really bothering anything. Please don't argue like a politician. You're a better person than that.

Jaibyrd wrote:We weren't talking about RP either. That RH info is what is used IN GAME, not RP. Still, my above points are made in that unlike in RH where it does matter, affinities do not matter really in PtP.


How recently is this? Because the page Catriana posted half of is the character sheet I'm familiar with. You choose Weapon Specialist, you don't get an elemental affinity to use in RH. Hence why I've been playing my character as not being aware of his.

Catriana wrote:I am genuinely confused as to why going through this entire voting process and running a census, which takes a heck of a lot of time, is more convenient than just having paying members put an affinity in their profile for ST to look up IF he decides to even use them.


You still haven't answered my question about this.

And your vote option excludes people who are not here, cannot be here, future members, those who miss voting, or those vote for other options they feel have more relevance. Unless you plan to add this vote option every update, it would be more prudent to offer a precedent that everyone can get involved in.


Only in this one specific instance. And it doesn't have to be every update. Every quarter or half year or so should be fine, and in my opinion, that's the kind of thing that the clan should do at that frequency anyway, variance allowed for the influx of new members via refugees and children. And what precedent did you have in mind?
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