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Fight or Flight?

Poll ended at Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:18 pm

Time to show the Nals we're in this alliance to the end, and maybe get some kind of reward.
13
54%
Discretion is the better part of valor. Take Queen Anjhali's recommendation and minimize the risk to our assets.
11
46%
 
Total votes : 24

Re: Should We Stay or Should We Go?

Postby laserkid on Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:10 pm

Just a little tired of TK acting like frightened tikkitiks, yet being absolutely ruthless to anyone they have an advantage over.
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Re: Should We Stay or Should We Go?

Postby Ash'arion on Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:16 pm

There's a significant difference between 'this fiasco is a waste of our time' and 'I'm afraid I might die here'. Make no mistake, those opting out of this adventure aren't doing so out of fear.
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Re: Should We Stay or Should We Go?

Postby Sinsystems on Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:25 pm

We be here to da end. Friends stand by friends
Me an me krew arr da strongest and da meanest dar is. So come and get us ya pansies
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Re: Should We Stay or Should We Go?

Postby Jaibyrd on Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:04 pm

laserkid wrote:Just a little tired of TK acting like frightened tikkitiks, yet being absolutely ruthless to anyone they have an advantage over.


This does not justify nor excuse your behavior.




Said my piece, I'm done with this.

The Clan will do as it votes and as always we will deal with the results when they happen. It is what it is.
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Re: Should We Stay or Should We Go?

Postby laserkid on Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:17 pm

K, probably for the best.
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Re: Should We Stay or Should We Go?

Postby Eltharrion on Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:28 pm

laserkid wrote:Just a little tired of TK acting like frightened tikkitiks, yet being absolutely ruthless to anyone they have an advantage over.

Ash'arion wrote:There's a significant difference between 'this fiasco is a waste of our time' and 'I'm afraid I might die here'. Make no mistake, those opting out of this adventure aren't doing so out of fear.

Even this praised tactician from history called Sun Zu (you might have heard of him? "Art of War"?) stated that one should strike with full strength when enemy is weak, and retreat away when enemy is strong. It's all natural state of mind for one to avoid their demise. But that's not the main point here.

To all people out there talking about this, I'd like to point a single thing.
Drows are a race of opportunists. Le't's face it, we are a bunch of people who would grab that pile of gold for our clan rather than openly share it with others "just because they are friends". Sure, alliances and contracts exist, but drow race in general doesn't do things just to be "nice" to others. They have almost always strings attached to the offer. Even the "gifts" they give you have strings, and they expect you to repay some day in some form.

Now, here comes the tricky part. Nals are getting attacked by an enemy they can most likely repel from this outpost (that, or holding it would be meaningless as about ANY passing-by raiding party could level it to the ground). Let's say we step in, attack the enemy and allow Nals to beat it even more easily. What happens next?
Sure, for short moment they are thankful for our help. But then the strings turn visible. Nals (and us) realize that we now have a favor over their heads. A favor of saving their friggin' outpost, no less. No matter if they could have saved it themselves (it's bit like when you drop your hat into a lake, and just before you can grab it back, your best friend reaches out to take it and then offers it to you. Most commonly there's gonna be a little "he helped you get your hat back"-sting of morality in the back of your head, even if the help was unnecessary).

Now, whether this "favor" is to repay our "favors" back to them, or if it grants us some power over Nals, that's not good for them. If we still own them something sentimental, they'd like to keep that tab on so they can cash it in when THEY want it and need it for something crucial. If it makes so that they own us one, they wouldn't like that either for we could ask for help or favors somewhere else (for example, the airship port) saying "but we saved your outpost, and this is how you repay that?"

And finally, for all of the long-standing people with original TK characters who claim we should help because Tei'kaliath are more group-friendly than Chel-born (not pointing fingers, more than three people have fallen for this claim), here's a little piece of info from the very PtP Wiki-page describing original Tei'kaliaths.

Tei'kaliath have a strong sense community and camaraderie, perhaps even more so than most other drow. This is due in part to their small numbers but also from the prefall attitudes of Shifaye'sindil, as disruptive conduct was looked down upon. On the other hand this also lends the Tei'kaliath to a somewhat isolationist attitude, as they are used to solving problems on their own rather than asking for outside help.

With that kind of attitude note, you don't expect us to do exactly the opposite, now do you?
Anyway, this is only my side of the view here, so let's just see what people vote as a clan here. I expect we all go with the majority of vote, so this all here is to give explanation and possible food for thinking what you wish to vote.
That's all, thank you.
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Re: Should We Stay or Should We Go?

Postby Timotheus on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:41 pm

It's just not that simple, though it could be made that way by the GM if they so decide. Speaking as a clan member we have a honor commitment to stand by the Nal if we perceive they have a need unless they release us from it. This is OUR honor commitment not the Nal's and Anjhili should reflect this. However, we still don't know if such a threat absolutely exists or only appears to be the situation still needs clarification.

Warning the Nal outpost and making sure this isn't some elaborate misunderstanding should be done before we decide whether to pull out.

Likewise, establishing the status of the ballista batteries overlooking the area should be done while we're determining the status of the Nal outpost in case it becomes important. It's better to know and not need to than not know and need to.

If the GMs want us to avoid a conflict here all they need to do is give us the straight information.
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Re: Should We Stay or Should We Go?

Postby minalia on Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:57 am

Sometimes the GM may already decided the outcome of a situation no matter how much we want to deny the fact that he has a plot to tell and if he wants to OFF someone to tell a story so be it.

I am now gonna explain the worst possible case scenario, please don't take what i am going to say seriously. This is just speculation and theorizing.

Let's speculate on this idea on why saving the outpost might be utterly pointless. Kern may wants to show us a enemy. A very powerful, very ruthless very cunning foe. That we can't argue with, bargain and won't stop till our airship is under its control. In order to make this enemy fearsome to the players eyes he needs to make it do something nasty. We may have just arrived to see a group of scouts from said foe, given a warning to the nals that may underestimate the threat regardless of the warning letter then we leave after sending said letter or defeating the scout group. Hell we might pat ourselves in the back, congrats ourselves that we did a good deed. It won't change the plot. The folks in that outpost are screwed due to plot demand.

The enemy then finally shows up with his forces wipes out the nals outpost while we are off doing our own excellent adventure in the northern airport. The enemy receives news that there was a airship that was seen and may plan to put a trap to lure us in the nal outpost later on in order to facilitate the airship getting captured when we try and attempt to land. If we are smart we should never go back to the outpost to give this foe the chance to pinpoint where our city could be at but the plot might demand we still go back there for some reason.

Now, i don't really care at this point whether or not we go and attempt this pointless save the nal thing. What I really care about is getting our main mission done first. Then we can see what Kern REALLY has planned on the way back since what we are looking at the moment is merely the prologue of a good story line where we can shape the clan's destiny that will begin only if we return to the nal outpost later after the main mission has been accomplished.
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Re: Should We Stay or Should We Go?

Postby goblin6 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:55 am

That kinda sounds like a very linear inflexible game you describe Min. PTP was advertise as a free roam do whatever you want kind of game, yet we get punished severely just cause we didn't go along with the GMs script to the letter? Why give us a choice in that matter if the GM doesn't want us to branch out? Any good GM or DM should know that his players may not always follow the path he gives them, and thus need to adapt to the players' choices. I think Kern learn that (at least I hope he did) the last time he managed PTP, it was what drove him up the wall and later drove him to quit as the GM until now. Cause if what Min is implying, then Kern (and us) are making the same mistakes as last time. Kern scaring and punishing us for branching out, forcing us to restrict ourselves in a linear path he provided. If we resist his attempts, he just ends the entire game prematurely just cause we didn't go along with his script. Now I don't believe Kern is doing that nor am I accusing him of doing it. Maybe that's how Kern role back in the day, but whose to say he learned from the past and change his methods to prevent from it ever happening again? All this what ifs and speculation isn't helping to resolve the current situation. The time for discussion has passed, it's now up to the clan to decide our next course of action. For good or ill, we face the consequences of our action together. So let's not further divide each other over this issue. We're all too stubborn to change our minds once each of us make a decision. So let's accept each others' opinions and forgive, we must be united for when we make our next move later this week. And again, I want to apologize for my behavior these last few days. No matter what happens, I bare no ill will to anyone and I hope you all feel the same way
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Re: Should We Stay or Should We Go?

Postby Timotheus on Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:02 am

I've expressed my point of view. I will follow the majority vote of the clan. My people have a tradition of following orders.

If we do attack, may I suggest we drop a couple parachute dummies to really confuse our opponents.
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Re: Should We Stay or Should We Go?

Postby Ash'arion on Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:10 am

That would be hilarious, but we're kind of on the ground and if attacking, doing so before the airship lifts off. I guess we could use the ballistae as makeshift catapults, but that might damage them. The ballistae I mean.
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Re: Should We Stay or Should We Go?

Postby goblin6 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:09 pm

Well Teikaliaths, it's a bit early, but the recent EA update suggest we're staying to assists the Nals. One of the FSF manage to get a jump on the interlopers. Bad news is that we got mix messages on who we're dealing with. We think it's Mims, Mili think they're Vloz, and the Nals think it's the Suls.
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Re: Should We Stay or Should We Go?

Postby Dalvyserran on Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:49 pm

let's put this into another perspective: what if the hostiles are hostile because they saw a freaking flying ship for the first time in 1000+ yrs? First thought would be to shoot it down before it shot you. News spreading of an operational flying ship can't be instantaneous.

What if those scouts the ferals took care of were hired Nal mercs?

If these painted folks were mimians or black suns, both known enemies of the Nals, that outpost leader's first thought wouldn't be the Sullisin'rune of all people to name.

I still think this is bad business to charge in without having any green light to go forward.
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Re: Should We Stay or Should We Go?

Postby demonthault on Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:07 pm

Well, I endorsed the counter recon advice so whoever Daven got the jump on was snooping around... probably looking for us.
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Re: Should We Stay or Should We Go?

Postby goblin6 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:24 pm

Dalvyserran wrote:let's put this into another perspective: what if the hostiles are hostile because they saw a freaking flying ship for the first time in 1000+ yrs? First thought would be to shoot it down before it shot you. News spreading of an operational flying ship can't be instantaneous.

What if those scouts the ferals took care of were hired Nal mercs?

If these painted folks were mimians or black suns, both known enemies of the Nals, that outpost leader's first thought wouldn't be the Sullisin'rune of all people to name.

I still think this is bad business to charge in without having any green light to go forward.


What ifs doesn't do anything but create more doubt. If these are mercs under Nal employ, I seriously doubt they'll be mims or black suns. Nals and mims have a violent history with one another and hate each other with a passion. Nals would never hire black suns as they have been a pain in everyone's ass, in this case, the Black Suns have been raiding Nal caravans in the past. Until proven guilty, we have no proof that this is some elaborate trap set up by the Nals.
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