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Mandatory 1 hour per week Ti'ray practice: y/n?

Yep, sounds good.
10
37%
Nope, stupid idea.
15
56%
I have a better idea! (post it!)
2
7%
 
Total votes : 27

Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby blackjack217 on Thu May 24, 2012 8:28 pm

Laws advices have always ended with no substantive change.
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Tsuris on Thu May 24, 2012 8:29 pm

blackjack217 wrote:Laws advices have always ended with no substantive change.

Mostly because they never pass because any mention of having some sort of in game rule makes people freak out about loosing freedoms no matter how helpful the law could actually be
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Arianos on Thu May 24, 2012 8:31 pm

I'm just torn on this issue. On one hand, it is indeed a great idea and would give us strategic advantage in many situations, at the very least, as has been stated, any civilians caught offguard would have some manner of self defense, but against that, it takes away a sense of freedom from the clan. While many living in Ama'varde are of tei'kaliath descent, a good deal are not, and it could be seen as a sort of overly militaristic push. Forcing something that is supposed to be considered part of the culture could lead to further freedoms taken away later in the game. While yes, the snowball effect is a low card to play, it is still a card in the deck, and thus, a possible eventuality. I don't want to seem negative, but things that need to be taken into consideration are both militaristic and political viewpoints.

As well, The Ill'haress might even refuse the idea. She has proven to reject ideas that don't sit well with her in the past.
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Catriana on Thu May 24, 2012 8:35 pm

Certain classes have trained with the warriors before, and we've had Ti'ray tournaments. The argument that we are losing our cultural identity simply because the warriors cannot use Ti'ray due to their armor is invalid. We've already proven through demonstrations and tournaments that folks know Ti'ray, even if it's soft-hand or performing arts exclusive. If people are that afraid, throw some more tournaments, have Ti'ray performances during festivals.

Furthermore, the restricting armor doesn't mean the warriors still can't train in Ti'ray, nor does it mean you can't have lighter armored warriors filling other non-melee positions. The healers already know defensive techniques, they've trained with the warriors numerous times.

I am always against anything that people try to pass off as Mandatory, I don't care how small it is. Mostly because 1) it's never strictly necessary and 2) It always starts 'small'. Once you start allowing people to pass these mandatory laws, others will jump on the bandwagon and go "Well, you let this mandatory law pass, why not this one? That's not fair!" I'd much rather nip a problem in the bud before it starts.
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Catriana on Thu May 24, 2012 8:39 pm

Arianos wrote: Forcing something that is supposed to be considered part of the culture could lead to further freedoms taken away later in the game. While yes, the snowball effect is a low card to play, it is still a card in the deck, and thus, a possible eventuality.


Thank you. That is my exact concern.
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Tsuris on Thu May 24, 2012 8:45 pm

Catriana wrote:
Arianos wrote: Forcing something that is supposed to be considered part of the culture could lead to further freedoms taken away later in the game. While yes, the snowball effect is a low card to play, it is still a card in the deck, and thus, a possible eventuality.


Thank you. That is my exact concern.

It's possible it may happen actually, all things considered

Still, my main worry is that civilians won't be able to adequately defend themselves if they are ever attacked, as to the changing classes thing, we are also limited by the amount of class equipment we have

So I'm going to have to change my vote to "No" if not for fear of losing freedoms later, but because I'd rather find a better way of wording it then have it be mandatory, and find a way for it to be optional. Maybe ask Anji to encourage it or something rather then forcing it on everyone as a law so we get better results? *hmmm*
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Wy'shira on Thu May 24, 2012 8:46 pm

I really think people are making a bit of a slippery slope argument. It's just training people to use martial arts - think of it like karate. ^^; I don't think that's an overly militaristic regime attitude. I also don't think that making people use martial arts is going to lead to suddenly all of our freedoms being taken away. If people want to jump on this and use it to try and support their odd, restricting ideas, then we can't just tell them "no"? I'm not sure why we would suddenly lose the ability to decide things for ourselves. It sounds like all our fellow players are out to get us the moment they see a bit of weakness... or at least, that's what the argument seems to be assuming.

Then again, I really dislike "all or nothing" reasonings in general. I think it's too wide a brushstroke to say that all things that apply to everyone are bad. That itself is such a dangerous idea. If that is the main protest to the law, are there any other, better solutions to the problems?

Unfortunately, having warriors in MK2 and MK3 at once is not an option. People have said that Thalar will not allow us to have heavy armored warriors and light armored warriors. It's one or the other, sadly. And I am not the one who said that warriors will lose their cultural ties if they don't use ti'ray. There's a large discussion about it in the warrior thread right now, and it is a valid concern in the minds of many people. People have shut down the ideas of tournaments making up for the lack of armored martial arts in combat. That's why this law seems so extreme, in my opinion - lesser versions have been denied already.
Last edited by Wy'shira on Thu May 24, 2012 8:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby James Rye on Thu May 24, 2012 8:47 pm

Won´t there be always Tir'ay for the torunaments etc?

Weren´t people rather complaining that the warriors cannot use Tir'ay anylonger in theri heavier armor?

What sense does it make then to force the non-warriors to do Tir'ay weekly???

I rather want to ask Thalar if we can develope over the timeskip a new Tir'ay style which unlike the other four includes armor and weapons to its fighting style/is most techniques of the moves. Instead of making everyone do Tir'ay which we can only use in tournaments or self-defense, lets create an offensive for warriors in their new equipment fitting style.
If Thalar gives her okay, we´d be good to go for that one.

Looks like i´m the only one who voted for the third option. <.<
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Wy'shira on Thu May 24, 2012 8:51 pm

Honestly, I'm not sure why people would want to use martial arts in full armor instead of using their swords and crossbows. It seems like swords and crossbows would be better than martial arts on a battlefield. But I'm not a warrior, so idk.

That sounds like a really awesome suggestion, Sen. If Ti'ray used the weapons and armor we already have, it could be very useful in combat.
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Tsuris on Thu May 24, 2012 8:55 pm

Wy'shira wrote:Honestly, I'm not sure why people would want to use martial arts in full armor instead of using their swords and crossbows. It seems like swords and crossbows would be better than martial arts on a battlefield. But I'm not a warrior, so idk.

That sounds like a really awesome suggestion, Sen. If Ti'ray used the weapons and armor we already have, it could be very useful in combat.

Seconded.

Martial arts and full plate don't go together, nor does using martial arts on someone who could easily shoot you in the face with a crossbow bolt or blast you apart with a dwarf cannon make any sort of sense. Using martial arts as opposed to using a sword and shield seems idiotic, a warrior will be equipped with weapons, which Ti'ray doesn't integrate, so this whole debate about it being effective in combat is pointless

I'm still looking for an instance in combat where Ti'ray has played a part in helping us, no luck so far, it helped Anji one time in ortho from what I've found
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Catriana on Thu May 24, 2012 8:56 pm

The problem with making it mandatory is that we actually tried to have other classes train in ti'ray before...and without a militia civilians still ended up doing little to no damage against seasoned warriors. Even if the law passed, civilians cannot replace warriors. Furthermore, without someone leading the civilians during a time of crisis, it'll be a disorganized mess. I mean, look at all the battles that happened in Ther'avare, the only thing that was really effective was a militia unless one of the Ranked coordinated a plan of attack and eventually met up with the warriors anyway for further instructions.

The best thing we could do if there is an attack is to coordinate the non-combatants to a safe area (set up an evacuation plan so civilians aren't getting in the way of the warriors). Setting up the option for a trained militia is ideal in case we're in a combat situation and we can't switch classes. We can attempt to make this idea open-ended, where we vote to have a dedicated militia and if we're ever attacked, the militia will be established and formed up by whoever volunteers at that moment. A warrior would need to lead them, I think.

If you want, post an option twice a month where the militia meets up to train, or post it during downtime. As long as we attempt to establish it, it won't matter who volunteers in the end. Does that make sense?
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Arianos on Thu May 24, 2012 9:01 pm

Catriana wrote:
Arianos wrote: Forcing something that is supposed to be considered part of the culture could lead to further freedoms taken away later in the game. While yes, the snowball effect is a low card to play, it is still a card in the deck, and thus, a possible eventuality.


Thank you. That is my exact concern.


While I try to look at this issue from both sides, I must say I'm finding myself more on your side of the fence Catriana. I especially like the proposal of a militia as an alternative to this proposed law, as I feel you are correct about the mandatory actions proposed. They are indeed often unnecessary, and in this case, after some thought, indeed small in impact.

Think of it like this, if a person works out only one hour a week, do they actually get any stronger, or are they simply wasting time? From personal experience, I can say that just one hour a week is not nearly enough to actually make someone able to put what they "trained" into practice when they need it. To actually develope a skill, even minimally, requires a certain amount of dedication, and I just don't see it happening with this once a week thing.

James Rye, I've read your idea about the ti'ray argument, and it seems a sensible solution, especially since it is mainly warriors upset by the lack of ti'ray, it would be better to develop a style that actually suits them.


I guess, in the end, the key point might be trying to find a compromise that doesn't create compromise in the votes, so that we still accomplish something when needed.

And I would like to add that please, don't dismiss the threat of a slippery slope scenario. It is only by worrying about the slope, that we can avoid falling down it. So please, before doing anything rash, let's all take the time to think about possible ramifications of our actions. After all, who could have said this game would be taking place on the surface when it first started?
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Wy'shira on Thu May 24, 2012 9:06 pm

I like your militia idea more and more, Catriana. It's very logical. :)

Slippery slope arguments are inherently informal fallacies. The entire idea relies on the idea that we can't trust our fellow members and that an oppressive bandwagon movement will start. I think that's certainly something we should watch out for, but I also think we shouldn't see enemies in the shadows where none exist. We can be very cautious about laws that apply to everyone though. That's a good policy.
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Pariel on Thu May 24, 2012 9:35 pm

Hetros wrote:
Pariel wrote:I support Catriana, for what already has been said. Plus, mandatory laws are actually something that requires much more ponderation. THere could be consequences not yet foreseen.


How, pray tell, could taking a single hour out of everyone's week, effect things badly? If anything it would improve our defenses, allow us to defend ourselves from sudden attack. This is too important to allow "roleplay" to get in the way of.


Training also increases the healer's workload indirectly, because accidents during training do happen. It is also a problem considering we have also crippled and wounded who could not uphold said rule. The current wording does not have said exception.

Also making it widespread doesn't necessarily preserve a cultural identity. It could lead to a dilution effect in which the art spreads from the community and it's no longer an "unique" thing.

In short, a mandatory rule shouldn't be passed on so lightly. I certainly agree to Catriana's idea of a militia.
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Leonis on Thu May 24, 2012 9:59 pm

I am tending to fall on the side of a milita. Not mandatory persay... but perhaps mandatory training for any one who volunteers for the milita. And yes, a single hour a week is not enough. An hour a day AFTER it has already become muscle memory SHOULD be enough, but as my Drill Sergeants drilled into my head... Muscle memory takes at least a week plus of almost solid training to REALLY become muscle memory. That is to say nothing of how much set up time is required. And correction by teachers in the beginning.

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