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Mandatory 1 hour per week Ti'ray practice: y/n?

Yep, sounds good.
10
37%
Nope, stupid idea.
15
56%
I have a better idea! (post it!)
2
7%
 
Total votes : 27

Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Sil'Thara on Fri May 25, 2012 4:54 am

Here's a novel idea. How about we talk to Thalar about Tir'ay to see what can be worked out in a way that's easy for her to keep track of? Another idea. How about letting the people who want to use Tir'ay actually use it instead of being a nay-sayer and trying to stand in their way by being a nay-sayer? I could have swore that the way the clan operates is based around what the individuals want to do. In case anyone hasn't realized it yet, I'm a little tired of this argument.
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby James Rye on Fri May 25, 2012 5:54 am

The prob with militia is that we asked her about that once and she said there won´t be any militia till she got a better and faster way of telling who´s in which job with what equipment and skills, etc. So militia is only an topic when the update´s done.
I remember a thread in the conference room about this topic already. Or two.
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Hetros on Fri May 25, 2012 7:24 am

I've enabled vote changes.

edit:

I want to POINT THIS OUT:
We cannot feasibly enable VOLUNTEERING FOR THIS. It is too micro and would require EA actions to do so, which means upkeep, which means that we would forget it eventually and it would screw us over for not practicing.

By setting up a SCHEDULE for making this happen by submitting it as a Leader Archive action, we set up a system by which it will happen -automatically- without anyone interfering with it. Our freedoms will not be impinged upon, it will not screw over our ability to do things, and considering that the bulk of our military will be -leaving- this action might -save lives-.

I just want to ask. How, please HOW, in any way, will this impinge on your abilities to do -anything- in the game? Really? How will it effect your roleplays? Please, do not allow a stupid fear stop you from protecting the clan. If we die off, there is no roleplay, there is no clan, we're doomed, game over, Kern scraps the whole thing and moves on to the next challenges project.

edit2:
People also mention freedoms... I'm curious, WHAT freedoms specifically if not roleplay freedoms? And if not roleplay freedoms, then what freedoms can you guys POSSIBLY be complaining about losing?

edit3:

A possible amendum. We set this up to apply to EVERYONE who does not actually have a job. We make mandatory laws like this one apply ONLY to the faceless.
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Xalgoz on Fri May 25, 2012 10:36 am

Can you even do something like this? Why not a "mandatory harvesting" law so we can automate food production without dedicating actions to it, or turn any other number of tedious production duties over to a background process? This just doesn't seem like it would be allowed, and if it was, it opens up a lot of useful options than just Tiray. I'll give you a yes vote for this simply to see if it's possible within the game mechanics.
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Hetros on Fri May 25, 2012 11:19 am

Xalgoz wrote:Can you even do something like this? Why not a "mandatory harvesting" law so we can automate food production without dedicating actions to it, or turn any other number of tedious production duties over to a background process? This just doesn't seem like it would be allowed, and if it was, it opens up a lot of useful options than just Tiray. I'll give you a yes vote for this simply to see if it's possible within the game mechanics.


I'm just saying, we are not opperating like a civilization with 300 members to our name. I say fuck that. If we had look outs on the walls 24/7 like we should have we could pull this off. We could automate actions in far off outposts like our MINE way the fuck away and make it easier for Thalar to function while we focus on settlement actions.

I say we set a precedent for LIMITED utility of faceless damn it.
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Catriana on Fri May 25, 2012 3:19 pm

Hetros, you have been a part of PtP longer than I have. You know for a fact that trying to make the faceless do anything is going to get rejected. How many times have clan members tried to force something on the Faceless? Too many and you know this. Kern did not allow it, and I doubt Thalar will retcon his decision on this matter.

You are pulling up old PtP numbers from back when this game was thriving. Membership has declined sharply, we have maybe half of 300 now, and alts are included in that number, so active member wise, I estimate we have less than 100. I understand we have people who lurk and still vote by only reading the comic, so I say vote-wise, we have around 100 or so. Folks seem to come out of the woodwork during important votes involving the clan as a whole.

TL;DR: We don't have 300 members to our name.

People aren't against your idea because we're 'afraid' and I want to dismiss the slippery slope theory for the simple fact that people have attempted to abuse their power here, it caused a lot of problems in PtP 1(and no I'm not talking about the Ranked). As a long time member, I can personally attest to the fact that when people are given an inch in this game, they will take a mile. So yes, I will vote 'No' on any 'Mandatory' vote option because it can potentially lead to abuse further down the line. Look already with Xalgoz' post. That's a prime example of how something small and minor can lead to people wanting to take the Mandatory option and completely change the game.

And no, I'm not picking on you, your idea has merit (I doubt Thalar would go for it, because it really is game changing), but it also derails from Hetros' idea and because it sounds good(easier), he's jumping on your bandwagon to attempt to bolster people to vote for his own option. It's a very obvious tactic from where I'm sitting, meaning that Hetros you need to be more subtle in your sells because I am pretty easy to sucker.

Hetros, there is also the fact that some of those faceless might not be faceless at all, but alts. Some of those alts might be active members.

I don't like how you're wording your argument to seem like if it doesn't pass we're all doomed. It's a poor fright tactic and not a way to win votes. There is no desperate need to have mandatory Ti'ray, we are not going to die off if your option doesn't pass, and we will not be left unprotected unless the warriors leave Ama'varde completely unguarded and defenseless. I have yet to see you actually address any of the alternates or compromises presented to you, you have yet to address the real arguments against your mandatory law (You've addressed the superficial ones, but people have been posting in detail and you've avoided discussing those, especially the ones that render your option invalid and inconsequential).

What I want, Hetros, is for you to explain how making ti'ray mandatory would:

- Increase effectiveness during an attack. Even with the training, civilians need guidance, they can defend but history has shown that we can defend ourselves to a limited degree without Ti'ray. Who is going to organize the civilians so that their usefulness is utilized to their full potential? Or were you simply assuming that Thalar would have everyone simply run the show and have the civilians be effective in battle? Not even the warriors have that sort of capability and they're supposed to be well trained. They still have to be lead, they still need guidance, squads, etc.

- Change anything within the game to our benefit. You cannot replace civilians with warriors, so besides forcing everyone to learn self-defense, what exactly are you trying to gain here? A clan level up isn't a good enough reason.

- Take pressure off of Thalar. In fact the way I see it, it's putting more pressure on her because you want us to do a whole lot more than simply learn Ti'ray. You want her to manage the civilians so that their training makes them effective if we were to ever have an attack and you want them to watch the city(which is the Warriors' job) which takes time away from their daily jobs. You want the GM to be the squad leader of all the civilians, and that seems completely unfair to all the other job classes, especially the warriors who have to coordinate and work together to be an effective unit.

Your plan is highly ambitious without taking into account past battles and actual defensive tactics. TL;DR: Making Ti'ray mandatory changes absolutely nothing in terms of actual city defense, making the option pointless and reinforcing that our current way of having Ti'ray be optional is ideal. The only thing that would make civilians more useful in city defense is an organized militia, which apparently, isn't something Thalar is willing to entertain at the moment if what James Rye says is true.
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby James Rye on Fri May 25, 2012 6:58 pm

We´ve got around 70-80 votes.
And probably around 100 active players, alot just vote too late or only once in a month.
Rest is there to watch the story.
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Xalgoz on Fri May 25, 2012 11:09 pm

55-60 seems to be the rough average for EAs, with slightly less for LA, varying depending on if something actually happened to react to.
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby James Rye on Fri May 25, 2012 11:11 pm

Xalgoz wrote:55-60 seems to be the rough average for EAs, with slightly less for LA, varying depending on if something actually happened to react to.


Come on, let me be optimistic here Xal. No need to crush the hopes of having 100 or 80 active/semi-active players. ^^;
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Hetros on Fri May 25, 2012 11:55 pm

Catriana wrote:- Increase effectiveness during an attack. Even with the training, civilians need guidance, they can defend but history has shown that we can defend ourselves to a limited degree without Ti'ray. Who is going to organize the civilians so that their usefulness is utilized to their full potential? Or were you simply assuming that Thalar would have everyone simply run the show and have the civilians be effective in battle? Not even the warriors have that sort of capability and they're supposed to be well trained. They still have to be lead, they still need guidance, squads, etc.

The theory is the same as the way the English passed a law after the battle of hastings that made it MANDATORY for Englishmen to practice archery for a few hours every week. They became one of the most effective bow armies in the world and dominated the European battle field with the long bows and effectively ended the age of the knight. By making EVERYONE practice Ti'ray, they learn a self defense method that will allow them to defend themselves from sudden attacks. We aren't trying to make a military force here, not really, we're trying to get rid of the base line training a warrior would normally have to undergo. This also means that if there is a sudden ambush by say, Kotorc raiders, or those racoons, they will be able to do more than RUN AWAY SCREAMING THEIR HEADS OFF AND BE CUT DOWN.

Catriana wrote:- Change anything within the game to our benefit. You cannot replace civilians with warriors, so besides forcing everyone to learn self-defense, what exactly are you trying to gain here? A clan level up isn't a good enough reason.

See above. I just explained it. It would also establish a precedent for an automated rank up as it were.

Catriana wrote:- Take pressure off of Thalar. In fact the way I see it, it's putting more pressure on her because you want us to do a whole lot more than simply learn Ti'ray. You want her to manage the civilians so that their training makes them effective if we were to ever have an attack and you want them to watch the city(which is the Warriors' job) which takes time away from their daily jobs. You want the GM to be the squad leader of all the civilians, and that seems completely unfair to all the other job classes, especially the warriors who have to coordinate and work together to be an effective unit.

The idea here is that by training -everyone- Thalar has a BASE LINE. She doesn't have to figure out "okay, the people over here are warriors or not warriors" it sets up a situation and a precedent for us making shit up that allows us to make things in the base line outposts that produce stuff once every turn or so. By making it so Thalar isn't having to react to our every little thing, but can just set up a list of "okay, these resources increase and these resources decrease once every turn because of the outposts" then her job becomes easier. Rather than having to just make shit up on the spot every single damn time.



edit:
Also, even if we assume we have 100 active players, then that's still 200 or so non ACTIVE players still doing -nothing-. I'm sorry, but my whole "stretching the imagination" of what those people are actually -doing- is breaking down under the circumstances.
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Jonarus_Drakus on Sat May 26, 2012 3:13 am

I really don't know where to start... So many good (and bad) arguments on both sides... I'm not even going to bother beyond saying that I don't support the "mandatory" training as it stands, though I do support the more general 'idea' of a clan-wide 'level-up' (a better 'baseline' as Het put it).

I'll be bringing this up in the warrior thread too, but I have special plans regarding Tir'ay for the clan. You can see a 'first hint' in the form of the Tir'ay RP that I started. Basically, in times past, we had Tir'ay 'Dojos' - We should do so again, make training more accessible to the 'faceless masses' - Get off our butts and build a permanent training facility/arena. THEN once we can say for sure that everyone (faceless or otherwise) has equal access to facilities and trainers (Eh'rin will be one such trainer if I have my way), THEN (and only then) can we reasonably say that we have the ability to improve the base level of competency of EVERYONE in the clan - and it wouldn't even require laws being made - The access to training would be wide-spread enough for Thalar (as GM) to be able to say that 'the majority' of the clan -faceless included- can be assumed to have a basic understanding of Tir'ay for self defense. The game being 'macro' means the 'the majority' effectively counts as everyone.

So yeah, that's my suggestion - bring Tir'ay facilities and training into focus so that knowledge of the art becomes 'macro' enough to cover everyone without actually having to require actions (EA or LA) at all...

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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Sil'Thara on Sat May 26, 2012 4:22 am

I could live with a Tir'ay Dojo. The question is...how would we select the teachers? A tournament for each style?
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Jonarus_Drakus on Sat May 26, 2012 6:16 am

Sil'Thara wrote:I could live with a Tir'ay Dojo. The question is...how would we select the teachers? A tournament for each style?


That is pretty much exactly what I was thinking... The only issue I saw with that was that it might be a bit TOO random... The 'teacher' positions shouldn't be based on dice-rolls alone, lest the 'winner' get bored and decide not to keep up the job. Sure, a new person could be selected the same way to replace them, but that is beside the point, the people in these roles should be people who want to work for the long-term.

AS for the facilities themselves... Lets just say I'm working on something :P

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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby Catriana on Sat May 26, 2012 8:10 am

I am all for a dojo, but maybe that discussion should be posted in another thread.

@Hetros:

- Game mechanics will not allow civilians to do anything beyond defending themselves as they beat a tactical retreat, unless someone tries to vote in an option to form a militia and Thalar approves it. No matter how much training you force them to have, they are not warriors, so they need to get out of the way and let the trained professionals, who know Force Protection protocol to do their jobs.

- We have already faced a battle in which civilians defended themselves without the aid of Ti'ray. I'm not going to go over that again in detail, it's in my previous post.

- Your RL argument works against you. You claim that they were the best armies, right? Armies have ranks, structures, leaders, it's more than just teaching them a martial art or archery. I'm sure they were given some sort of other military training, like where to go, what to do, who to report to, there had to have been some structure or it would have been a mess. So as much as you want to claim "Teach them ti'ray and they'll know what to do during an attack!" that's not how it works.

Take it from someone who has actual military experience. Knowing how to defend yourself is only a part of a whole. There is no solid justification for making Ti'ray mandatory.
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Re: Ti'ray solution: Mandatory practice law

Postby James Rye on Sat May 26, 2012 11:00 am

Sil'Thara wrote:I could live with a Tir'ay Dojo. The question is...how would we select the teachers? A tournament for each style?


That´s actually one of my later plans if the 5th Tir'ay style gets accepted as idea for the timeskip. Also a Tir'ay dojo would add something new and unique for our clans culture. :D

It should be one for all styles though, as for the Sensei we could do a torunament, the winner gets the honory title for a year and is responsible for the dojo and such as the RP in the thread or posting actions about training Tir'ay which everyone can join if they want or not. :)
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