The heart of Ther'avare! Join in the conversations and make yourself known amongst your clan, and participate in its life, culture, and art!

Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby 3Power on Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:35 pm

goblin6 wrote:Even if this idea were to pass, an approved expedition can still go wrong. No matter how many precautions you take, life(or Thalar in this case) has a way to screw you over. For the golem expedition, the journey to the golems was smooth(with some minor mishaps that has no effect on the expedition), but the return trip was not; we didn't foresee bad weather, raccoons and a kurr to impede them; all this took its toll on the team and lead them to make some poor decisions. There are always unknown factors in any given situation and they can throw off even the most coordinated team off balance and into disarray. We just have to adapt and counter it as best as we can. But I agree that too many members joined up for this expedition: 8 warriors, 2 Mana Specs, 1 medic, a few golem techs and the rest I have no idea what their classes are. We need to put a limit on how many can join an expedition so we have enough people back home to get other projects done in a timely manner. We also would want to limit the expedition to certain classes to get the best result depending on what the expedition requires. That's my two cent, although I'm still neutral on this matter.

Thalar refuses to set any limits on who can join an expedition. We need to assume any expedition will have a tagalongs and that being uncommitted they will mess up. Still this can be mitigated if the rest of the expedition is properly set up, but under the current system, there's no way to guarantee that either.
Trey'la in Path to Power.
We gotta go, We've got nothing to lose, now time has come for us to get out.
We gotta go, If we're going down, well let's go down in flames!
User avatar
3Power
Summoner
 
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 12:20 am
Clan: Tei'kaliath

Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby Tibanna Vilrath on Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:47 pm

and what does your idea change? a wasted turn for the approval and after that everythign is the same ... you can tag along or miss a vote .. nothign changes only that we wasted a turn...
Aleria Vilrath - PTP
Tibanna Vilrath - RH C2
User avatar
Tibanna Vilrath
Summoner
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:45 am

Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby Wy'shira on Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:48 pm

How about this as a suitable compromise: We make an unofficial rule* that if you're making an expedition that plans to take along more than 12-15 people (the clan can decide / common sense can decide, either or), you mention it in the shoutbox and make a forum thread about it. There, people can voice their opinions and unofficially vote on whether it's a good idea or not. It's also only polite to the rest of the clan to include them on giant decisions. That combines Trey's concern that the clan's manpower will be unnecessarily sucked away by unimportant expeditions and it also addresses the concerns raised by people so far. No LA options are needed, so it won't take away from any LA votes. :)

*By an unofficial rule, I mean an idea that has been largely agreed upon by the clan and that people mention to new members. It wouldn't be anything official; people could not be punished for disobeying it. But reasonable members of the clan would adhere to it.
What is done under compulsion is done without understanding. There is no more beauty in it than if one should whip and spur a dancer. -Xenophon (paraphrase). Follow your heart.

Wy'shira = Eloh.
User avatar
Wy'shira
Summoner
 
Posts: 304
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:50 am

Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby blackjack217 on Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:52 pm

Or we can do command by negation. As long as no one in a higher in the chain of command says you can't, you can. In this case that means that as long as there is no LA against the expedition it's okay.
Anareth Nimaraidh
Ceterum autem censeo, Siyah-khorshed esse delendam!
User avatar
blackjack217
Demon
 
Posts: 695
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:48 pm
Location: Right behind you
Clan: Tei'kaliath

Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby Catriana on Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:20 am

blackjack217 wrote:Or we can do command by negation. As long as no one in a higher in the chain of command says you can't, you can. In this case that means that as long as there is no LA against the expedition it's okay.


You are suggesting two different things with your wording, one of which isn't applicable. What you are proposing is to put in an option for a counter vote, if I'm reading what you're saying correctly.

Goblin6 makes a very good point. The expedition did not fail because it was launched 'without permission', what happened was something any expedition could have faced. Even if there had been clan approval, the results would have been the same. Even if we had planned everything out, the results still could have been the same. In the end, the expedition ended up facing adversity outside of their means of control. There is no one to blame for what happened, sometimes things simply do not go as planned. This game isn't supposed to be about smooth sailing and an easy existence. We are drow up on the surface world. We are supposed to struggle. People are going to die, plans are going to fail, no matter how much insight we put into them.

Thalar can refuse to set limits to who can join, but that doesn't mean the expedition itself cannot do so. The GM should not be limiting expeditions in the first place, I am failing to see why she should. PtP is not her game, it's ours, if we want to set up expeditions, we need to be willing to police ourselves. If we cannot, that is not the GM's fault.

We cannot control every facet of this game. There are too many people, too many circumstances to make the attempt. Furthermore, doing so would discourage members to join and make this game less fun.

So while I understand 3Power's argument, I cannot support forcing the clan to vote on expeditions based on said arguments. Doing so would change nothing besides delay the expedition itself.
“The most I can do for my friend is simply be his friend." -Henry David Thoreau
User avatar
Catriana
Dragon of the Nether
 
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:04 am
Location: Washington

Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby Hetros on Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:56 am

Plus the only way for Explorers to EVER get shit done will be by expeditions >_> without that we're screwed.
Image
Earth,fire,wind,and water all come together in perfect balance inside of a Smith's forge, this perfect harmony of elements can rarely be found anywhere else in existence.
~Hetros' Mentor
Hetros
Dragon of the Nether
 
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:06 am
Location: Ther'avar Forge
Clan: Tei'kaliath

Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby AthenAltena on Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:07 am

Catriana wrote:
You are suggesting two different things with your wording, one of which isn't applicable. What you are proposing is to put in an option for a counter vote, if I'm reading what you're saying correctly.

Goblin6 makes a very good point. The expedition did not fail because it was launched 'without permission', what happened was something any expedition could have faced. Even if there had been clan approval, the results would have been the same. Even if we had planned everything out, the results still could have been the same. In the end, the expedition ended up facing adversity outside of their means of control. There is no one to blame for what happened, sometimes things simply do not go as planned. This game isn't supposed to be about smooth sailing and an easy existence. We are drow up on the surface world. We are supposed to struggle. People are going to die, plans are going to fail, no matter how much insight we put into them.

Thalar can refuse to set limits to who can join, but that doesn't mean the expedition itself cannot do so. The GM should not be limiting expeditions in the first place, I am failing to see why she should. PtP is not her game, it's ours, if we want to set up expeditions, we need to be willing to police ourselves. If we cannot, that is not the GM's fault.

We cannot control every facet of this game. There are too many people, too many circumstances to make the attempt. Furthermore, doing so would discourage members to join and make this game less fun.

So while I understand 3Power's argument, I cannot support forcing the clan to vote on expeditions based on said arguments. Doing so would change nothing besides delay the expedition itself.


I have to agree, I don't see how the outcome of this expedition would have been any different if the proposed rule had been in place.
User avatar
AthenAltena
Dragon of the Nether
 
Posts: 3394
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:58 pm
Location: New England
Clan: Tei'kaliath

Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby Jonarus_Drakus on Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:22 am

I have a counter-proposal that will act as a compromise of sorts... Rather than putting it 'to the masses' every time, simply make it a requirement that any expedition (of any kind) must receive a final clearance/confirmation from An'Jhali before actually proceeding.

As an example, the golem expedition, before it left the city, should have sent a runner with a 'final roster' (to determine who is on said expedition and thus restricted to it for the duration), to recieve a final "go"/"no go" order from An'jhali.

Doing it this way would require no more votes than would already be tied up in the expedition anyway, and gives us a 'last chance' warning system - Realistically, Thalar, via An'Jhali would surely give some indication if she didn't believe the expedition was sufficiently well planned/thought out.

...

End result? I won't support the "law" as it is, but I do think the intent is good. So if we re-focus the method to something akin to what I described above (doesn't have to be exact - I kept the wording vague intentionally!), THEN I would happily vote for it and encourage others to do so as well.

NOTE: For 'simple' trips, like local hunting and fishing, a simple one-off 'blanket' approval would be more than enough in my opinion.

~JD
> J'hon D'rak Tei'Kaliath. D'rak Patriarch, KIA on the 12th day of the 3rd Moon
> Eh'rin D'rak Tei'Kaliath. D'rak Dev'ess: viewtopic.php?f=74&t=14467&p=765500#p758482
http://jonarus-drakus.deviantart.com/
User avatar
Jonarus_Drakus
Vel'akar
 
Posts: 1434
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:59 am
Location: Watching you from behind the Blue eye...
Clan: Beldrobbaen

Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby Catriana on Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:40 am

Okay, here is why I have a problem with setting this law and any and all compromises involving this law, or limiting the players from freely setting their own expeditions.

- The accusation that the expedition began 'suddenly' is irrelevant, along with the fact that not all of the original goals of the expedition were met. The latter is something that could have happened regardless of planning. Furthermore, a thread was posted concerning the expedition, where plotting and tactics were discussed. Beyond opening a thread and posting the option for an expedition, there is little else that could have been done 'more properly' and trying to place blame on the ones who opened the option is a knee-jerk reaction to the fact that it did not go smoothly. Just because the first expedition did not meet all expectations doesn't mean it's a failure, it means things doesn't always go as planned.

- One of the reasons why the expedition did not do so well and why aid was delayed has a lot to do with our poor road system. It's been shown that people have gotten lost trying to navigate the circular paths, meaning we should probably do something about that first before sending out any other long term expeditions.

- This really needs to be stressed: We're not supposed to have an easy ride. We can restrict, limit, and delegate ourselves as much as possible, but something will still happen that is beyond our control. To that end, the most we will do is succeed in making this game unfun.

I am utterly against fixing something that isn't broken. Trying to blame the system for bad weather, messed up roads, and being attacked by annoying raccoon ferals doesn't address the actual issue at hand, it's just trying to find fault where there is none and attempting to force control where there doesn't need to be. The system itself is fine, and there hasn't been an argument I've seen to dictate otherwise.
“The most I can do for my friend is simply be his friend." -Henry David Thoreau
User avatar
Catriana
Dragon of the Nether
 
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:04 am
Location: Washington

Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby BlackFulcrum on Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:20 am

It has been said and shown, time and again, that the forest is literally littered with dangers, so each time we step out of our Ama'varde we are at risk, any expedition, if people hadn't gone on the golem expedition, it might have been a hunting party that got ambushed by the ferals and drawn into the Kurr's maw.

As for the expedition itself, yes I do consider that a big failure, but I would have considered it that, if they'd gotten back with no trouble what so ever, at the moment I do not consider those old golems to be worth any kind of time at all.

As for this law, I disagree it's need, it's all down to common sense, too few people for the mission, cancel it after the first turn, too many, send some back, not enough warrior protection, again cancel after the first turn, don't get distracted by the shiny at the end of the road.

Also I agree with Catriana, the road system is screwed up, if anything needs fixing it's that, we've got it mentioned in both last weeks EA, and LA, it needs to be looked at, ASAP.
If you wish for peace, prepare for war

Reayna Nimariadh Tei'kaliath - Airship Denizen
Quanhir'nylwae Nimaraidh Tei'kaliath - Warrior and Guardian of Ama'varde
User avatar
BlackFulcrum
Demon
 
Posts: 509
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:21 pm
Location: Lost? I'm not los...oooh shiney....
Clan: Tei'kaliath

Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby Tohya on Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:14 pm

The expedition was hardly a failure, we returned with something after all. The problems encountered near the end are just that, problems, they can happen to any group that leaves the colony.

The original goals of the expedition may not of been met, but that was not something that is up to the players to decide anyway. This is a game with a GM, and its up to the GM whether all of an expeditions goals will be met or not.
User avatar
Tohya
Vel'akar
 
Posts: 1726
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2003 7:25 pm

Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby Timotheus on Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:32 am

What I don't understand is where all these circular paths are supposed to have come from. I was heavily involved in the road building (since I couldn't do much else) and every road we built had a starting point and a defined end point. There was only one road through each square and it ran in one direction except for a (very) few Tee and Ex intersections.

The only areas where we might have a plethora of paths and trails is right around the residential and agricultural areas of our community, and that's because they're used for traffic.

Now the GM might want to create this situation as a story development and I can't gainsay her, but the roads we built were straight forward from A to B. There's only one place that I had to go back and square off a diagonal road (creating a triangular bypass) but that was due to the warehouse connection only working on the up and down roads. We would have put more effort into stone roads but no one was high enough ranked to make them.
If I knew what I was doing I'd be dangerous.
User avatar
Timotheus
Vel'akar
 
Posts: 1762
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:38 pm
Location: Either building something or kibitzing someone else's project. Mana, boats, and mills!
Clan: Tei'kaliath

Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby Tohya on Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:01 am

E17E18
F17F18
G17G18

Is a block of interconnected roads that are not part of the residential/farm areas.

We have far more interconnected roads than just the ones needed to connect the high traffic areas, which have stone roads connecting. We have rings of roads surrounding them extending two squares away.
User avatar
Tohya
Vel'akar
 
Posts: 1726
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2003 7:25 pm

Previous

Return to Community Centre

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron