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Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby 3Power on Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:21 pm

An advice is currently up in the LA that reads as follows:
Law: All expeditions must be voted on and approved by the clan before launch

Eight weeks ago, more or less, an expedition was launched with the goal of recovering golems from a distant square, among other things that got dropped. It was launched suddenly, with more members than originally intended, and some of its initial goals were discovered to be impossible only after the launch. Nevertheless the expedition continued onward instead of turning back. During the eight weeks in which the expedition was gone, the number of projects receiving enough votes in the EA plummeted. In the end the expedition had to be rescued, and ended with the death of brorn, and in all likelihood, meck.

And all we have to show for it is a single golem.

Now for some people, eight weeks and two players wasted is nothing compared to the benefits we will theoretically reap from owning a single broken worker golem, which some people seem to believe will allow us to craft multiple advanced war golems.

However, I see this expedition, which I had concerns about from the start, as a complete failure. And I regret that due to the way the system work, there was no way to halt the expedition before it launched until all the concerns were addressed.

Thus, I propose that all future expeditions be required to pass a vote of approval by the clan before they launch so that plans can be ironed out to the satisfaction of all.

As things are right now, anyone with enough votes can launch an expedition and there's nothing that can be done to stop it.

I am aware that some people see ptp as a toy rather than a game, and see anything that would limit what they are able to do as an insult or as somehow ruining their fun. But ptp is a team game, and doing what you want instead of what's best for the clan as a whole doesn't help anyone.

Some have claimed this law is unnecessary because people will learn from their mistakes.

Here's the thing. There is no guarantee people will learn. I have seen plenty of mistakes made in this game for which the same thing has been said, and yet the same mistakes kept being made. If you have truly learned from your mistakes, then you should be able to take steps to ensure the mistake isn't repeated. Voting this law in ensures you are willing to sacrifice a little bit of independent action in order to ensure that said action meets the approval of the entire clan. And yes, when you take votes away from the EA, the entire clan loses productivity.
Last edited by 3Power on Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby Nacht on Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:23 pm

No.
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Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby Wy'shira on Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:25 pm

To be constructive about this idea, I personally disagree with it, but if the rest of the clan wants it, I would support it. I do suggest that there be an exception to the rule for hunting expeditions and fishing expeditions. If the rule does pass, it should be for longer expeditions only. Otherwise, making a vote necessary for all hunting/fishing expeditions would slow down productivity. :)

ETA: If this expedition law passes, perhaps it could only apply to expeditions with 12 or more people. That amount of people being out on an expedition does affect the productivity of the clan at home. Expeditions with less people should be able to decide what their characters will do themselves.
Last edited by Wy'shira on Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby Tsuris on Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:30 pm

I do think this law is a reasonable idea, but I'm not sure how implementing it will help

I understand that a lot of other projects lost votes in the time that the expedition was away, and that a lot of stuff went wrong during the expedition, but most of the things that did go wrong was due to a lack of coordination and teamwork on the part of the expedition.

So (and correct me if I'm wrong) the goal of this law is to prevent an expedition from launching with no planning what-so-ever, thus affecting all other actions in the EA with a lack of votes, right?
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Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby 3Power on Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:32 pm

Wy'shira wrote:To be constructive about this idea, I personally disagree with it, but if the rest of the clan wants it, I would support it. I do suggest that there be an exception to the rule for hunting expeditions and fishing expeditions. If the rule does pass, it should be for longer expeditions only. Otherwise, making a vote necessary for all hunting/fishing expeditions would slow down productivity. :)
Can you give a reason why you disagree with it? Hunting and Fishing expeditions are unlikely to be opposed by anyone in the LA unless you're going far away, so in that case it would be a relatively simple step. Remember that the LA is usually pretty empty anyway.
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Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby minalia on Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:35 pm

Convince Thalar first. That is all i have to say on this subject.
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Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby Taruna on Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:37 pm

Everyone voting for going on a expedition just needs to be aware that they
1.) Reduce the productivity of the colony
2.) Inevitably bind warriors
3.) May not return

Due to the nature of this clan, there is no Law needed or applicable, all those who wish tho go on an expedition will simply do so.

This much to my reason for saying "no for law", but I naturally also have a counter-proposal:

First off, this things ought to be planned better in regards of
1.) Reason of the expedition
2.) Targets
3.) Numbers of participants
3.) Supplies
4.) Material needed
5.) Warrior Escort

I think there should be made a post in the forum, a few times "advertising" it in the shout-box and (for those who still do it: Skype) and given at least a month of time before it starts.
Just because this one expedition failed and might no been planned properly (or might, I was not present when it started), there's no reason to swing the big "no-hammer".
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Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby Wy'shira on Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:39 pm

I disagree with the law applying to hunting and fishing expeditions because I believe those don't need any oversight. They are unlikely to cause manpower problems at home. If people want to make those kinds of expeditions (usually with less than 10 people involved), they should be able to do so without anyone telling them otherwise.

I do think the creation of expeditions of 17+ people need to be agreed upon by the clan. I think your idea is a good one if it applies to large expedition groups and has enough loopholes to be circumvented if the situation calls for it. My two biggest problems with the law as presented in the LA are: 1.) The whole clan hasn't had a chance to approve it yet (which you solved by making this forum thread!) and 2.) The wording is too vague, while I would prefer it only applies to larger expeditions.

I think there should be made a post in the forum, a few times "advertising" it in the shout-box and (for those who still do it: Skype) and given at least a month of time before it starts.


I personally agree with Taruna, except that I believe we should only require a turn or two before it starts, because so much in the game can change within a month. :)
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Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby benuminister on Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:42 pm

I do disagree with a clan vote on expeditions but not because the expedition itself may or may not be popular but because it limits our clan's ability to expand. The more checks there are the slower a process is. So I think at bad times a very important action might be halted because of votes being allocated elsewhere.

I might just be jaded in this fact as I am an explorer and we need to get out of the settlement to do our jobs.
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Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby 3Power on Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:47 pm

Tsuris wrote:I do think this law is a reasonable idea, but I'm not sure how implementing it will help

I understand that a lot of other projects lost votes in the time that the expedition was away, and that a lot of stuff went wrong during the expedition, but most of the things that did go wrong was due to a lack of coordination and teamwork on the part of the expedition.

So (and correct me if I'm wrong) the goal of this law is to prevent an expedition from launching with no planning what-so-ever, thus affecting all other actions in the EA with a lack of votes, right?

The goal of the law is to ensure that no expedition, whether planned out poorly or well, is launched without the approval of the clan as a whole. And yes, it's because the lack of votes in the EA affects the clan as a whole.

I do disagree with a clan vote on expeditions but not because the expedition itself may or may not be popular but because it limits our clan's ability to expand. The more checks there are the slower a process is. So I think at bad times a very important action might be halted because of votes being allocated elsewhere.
It really isn't that much of a step. The LA has very little in it in any given turn. And you're trading a 1 turn vote for an 8 turn failed expedition in the best case scenario.

Due to the nature of this clan, there is no Law needed or applicable, all those who wish tho go on an expedition will simply do so.

We saw how that worked out.

I think there should be made a post in the forum, a few times "advertising" it in the shout-box and (for those who still do it: Skype) and given at least a month of time before it starts.
Just because this one expedition failed and might no been planned properly (or might, I was not present when it started), there's no reason to swing the big "no-hammer".
You are relying on people, and not the system, to keep things organized. It's an honor system that falls apart the moment someone does what they are not supposed to.
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Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby Tibanna Vilrath on Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:51 pm

Against it. completly useless law. Selfishly limiting the options we have to do "our" thing in the game.
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Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby 3Power on Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:00 pm

Against it. completly useless law. Selfishly limiting the options we have to do "our" thing in the game.
I'm sorry, please explain how making everyone a part of a decision that affects everyone is selfish while refusing to give up your ability to do something for the sake of the clan isn't.
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Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby blackjack217 on Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:15 pm

3Power wrote:
Against it. completly useless law. Selfishly limiting the options we have to do "our" thing in the game.
I'm sorry, please explain how making everyone a part of a decision that affects everyone is selfish while refusing to give up your ability to do something for the sake of the clan isn't.

Oh, let me try! Because your idea is so faulty that it does not qualify as "for the sake of the clan." Here is why:
1. Requiring approval in the LA drains LA votes.
2. With the prevalence of free accounts in the new PTP 3 EA voting patterns will be distrupted anyway.
3. Proposal will likely cauase resentment.
4. Command by negation will work just fine.
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Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby 3Power on Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:27 pm

blackjack217 wrote:
3Power wrote:
Against it. completly useless law. Selfishly limiting the options we have to do "our" thing in the game.
I'm sorry, please explain how making everyone a part of a decision that affects everyone is selfish while refusing to give up your ability to do something for the sake of the clan isn't.

Oh, let me try! Because your idea is so faulty that it does not qualify as "for the sake of the clan." Here is why:
1. Requiring approval in the LA drains LA votes.
2. With the prevalence of free accounts in the new PTP 3 EA voting patterns will be distrupted anyway.
3. Proposal will likely cauase resentment.
4. Command by negation will work just fine.

1. We have plenty. The LA is practically empty these days.
2. The addition of free accounts just means that the spread of information regarding expeditions will be even worse off. You can't count on people to read the forums. Raising awareness of the expedition in the comic helps offset that.
3. Huh?
4: The hell is command by negation?
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Re: Please vote the expedition oversight law into effect.

Postby goblin6 on Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:30 pm

Even if this idea were to pass, an approved expedition can still go wrong. No matter how many precautions you take, life(or Thalar in this case) has a way to screw you over. For the golem expedition, the journey to the golems was smooth(with some minor mishaps that has no effect on the expedition), but the return trip was not; we didn't foresee bad weather, raccoons and a kurr to impede them; all this took its toll on the team and lead them to make some poor decisions. There are always unknown factors in any given situation and they can throw off even the most coordinated team off balance and into disarray. We just have to adapt and counter it as best as we can. But I agree that too many members joined up for this expedition: 8 warriors, 2 Mana Specs, 1 medic, a few golem techs and the rest I have no idea what their classes are. We need to put a limit on how many can join an expedition so we have enough people back home to get other projects done in a timely manner. We also would want to limit the expedition to certain classes to get the best result depending on what the expedition requires. That's my two cent, although I'm still neutral on this matter.
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