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Re: Tei'kaliath Warrior Thread

Postby Ash'arion on Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:28 am

H'K'Maly wrote:I see you have problems with quantifiers. (Or, more probably, didn't readed mu post whole.)


You're going to have to explain your idea of what 'quantifiers' are, because frankly, I'm not seeing a problem on my end.

H'K'Maly wrote:
Ash'arion wrote:But it's not necessary. For example, there are even highly skilled surgeons and systemic specialists that don't know all there is to know about the human body. They do know a great deal more than the average person, and a ton about their area of expertise, and that's important.


Note that many people die directly on operating theatre, with multiple highly skilled surgeons around. Not speaking about people who don't even get there because everyone knows the problem they have wouldn't be solvable by operation.


Many of those people that lived just long enough to die on the table also had problems that couldn't be solved by surgery, some willingly or with help from their families sabotage the efforts of medical staff to treat them, and some people have a tendency to develop complications such as hemophilia when extra holes are added where they shouldn't be.

By that same token, there are a lot of aircraft and other vehicles that the mechanics find to have damage more extensive than initially believed. These are sent off to the factory or scrapped and in either case have to be replaced.

H'K'Maly wrote:Of course, aircraft is much simpler that human body.


Well yes, of course. An aircraft, or any vehicle for that matter, requiring maintenance will not consciously or subconsciously make any effort to work on its parts more difficult. Also, they don't feel pain, so you can beat things into place if you have to. And they're only self-destructive when certain parts of certain systems quit working and the rest of the machine doesn't. They aren't susceptible to infection (although corrosion can get nasty) and also won't sue you if you make a mistake.
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Re: Tei'kaliath Warrior Thread

Postby Whizzard on Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:15 pm

If anyone can suggest a better wording, please do so, for now the action would look like this:
"Warriors learn forming squads in battle & rigorously practice squad tactics" (75 letters)


Goal: to get people to automatically form squads during battle with closest persons to achieve advantage over single enemies and to apply tactics such as flanking and surrounding in battle independently.
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Re: Tei'kaliath Warrior Thread

Postby H'K'Maly on Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:45 pm

Ash'arion wrote:
H'K'Maly wrote:I see you have problems with quantifiers. (Or, more probably, didn't readed mu post whole.)


You're going to have to explain your idea of what 'quantifiers' are, because frankly, I'm not seeing a problem on my end.


It's not just mine.

H'K'Maly wrote:I mean, we won't be able to fix every problem which may happen.


We may be able to fix SOME problems of the airship, but not EVERY problem.

Ash'arion wrote:
H'K'Maly wrote:
Ash'arion wrote:But it's not necessary. For example, there are even highly skilled surgeons and systemic specialists that don't know all there is to know about the human body. They do know a great deal more than the average person, and a ton about their area of expertise, and that's important.


Note that many people die directly on operating theatre, with multiple highly skilled surgeons around. Not speaking about people who don't even get there because everyone knows the problem they have wouldn't be solvable by operation.


Many of those people that lived just long enough to die on the table also had problems that couldn't be solved by surgery, some willingly or with help from their families sabotage the efforts of medical staff to treat them, and some people have a tendency to develop complications such as hemophilia when extra holes are added where they shouldn't be.

By that same token, there are a lot of aircraft and other vehicles that the mechanics find to have damage more extensive than initially believed. These are sent off to the factory or scrapped and in either case have to be replaced.


In general case, yes. But note that we can't really send our airship back to factory ... so, the fact that we are not able to fix every possible problem is disturbing.

Ash'arion wrote:
H'K'Maly wrote:Of course, aircraft is much simpler that human body.


Well yes, of course. An aircraft, or any vehicle for that matter, requiring maintenance will not consciously or subconsciously make any effort to work on its parts more difficult. Also, they don't feel pain, so you can beat things into place if you have to. And they're only self-destructive when certain parts of certain systems quit working and the rest of the machine doesn't. They aren't susceptible to infection (although corrosion can get nasty) and also won't sue you if you make a mistake.


Running computer can easily complicate diagnostic of problem, for example by overwriting logs. Humans under anaesthetics don't feel pain either and some tools used for knee arthroplasty for example definitely count into the "beat things into place" category. And organic dye recording layer of optical media can and often does caught infection - I mean, are rendered unreadable by bacteria or mold. Not speaking about computer viri. Also note that dead patients rarely sue.

I was more talking about the fact that human body composes of 100 trillion cells. Every of these cell is partially independent machine with own autorepair mechanism and every one is replaceable, which is good, because 50 billions of them dies every minute. Every cell also contains complete instructions for rebuilding whole body (unfortunately is not able to use it for that purpose). Cell is surprisingly biggest part of body which can be considered independent: every bigger part is LESS independent and LESS replaceable, and very big number of them needs to be working just to make sure the body is not starting to be damaged.

You can stop aircraft and keep it weeks without energy while you are doing repairs: human body gets unrepairable after several minutes without power or even with power but some critical systems not working. On the other hand, human body can almost completely repair serious damages without need of replacement parts. (Back to negatives, replacement parts for humans have serious incompatibilities.)
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Re: Tei'kaliath Warrior Thread

Postby Ash'arion on Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:24 am

H'K'Maly wrote:
Ash'arion wrote:
H'K'Maly wrote:I see you have problems with quantifiers. (Or, more probably, didn't readed mu post whole.)


You're going to have to explain your idea of what 'quantifiers' are, because frankly, I'm not seeing a problem on my end.


It's not just mine.


Ok, so you have the same definition of the term as I do. That's a start. Now, please explain to me what you think my problems are.


H'K'Maly wrote:
H'K'Maly wrote:I mean, we won't be able to fix every problem which may happen.


We may be able to fix SOME problems of the airship, but not EVERY problem.


Yes. That was a point I've tried to raise earlier with other people. I don't see why you felt you needed to explain this to me.

H'K'Maly wrote:In general case, yes. But note that we can't really send our airship back to factory ... so, the fact that we are not able to fix every possible problem is disturbing.


It's not all that disturbing. Factory availability or not, when it comes to the need to meet the capacity to repair damage on an aircraft, the only disturbing variable is whether or not it's on the ground. The lack of more knowledgeable engineers is just annoying, but it also means we don't have anyone's standards to meet. Given that the world is one of magic, the extra freedom is a boon.

Ash'arion wrote:
H'K'Maly wrote:Of course, aircraft is much simpler that human body.


Well yes, of course. An aircraft, or any vehicle for that matter, requiring maintenance will not consciously or subconsciously make any effort to work on its parts more difficult. Also, they don't feel pain, so you can beat things into place if you have to. And they're only self-destructive when certain parts of certain systems quit working and the rest of the machine doesn't. They aren't susceptible to infection (although corrosion can get nasty) and also won't sue you if you make a mistake.


H'K'Maly wrote:Running computer can easily complicate diagnostic of problem, for example by overwriting logs. Humans under anaesthetics don't feel pain either and some tools used for knee arthroplasty for example definitely count into the "beat things into place" category. And organic dye recording layer of optical media can and often does caught infection - I mean, are rendered unreadable by bacteria or mold. Not speaking about computer viri. Also note that dead patients rarely sue.


Um... ok I'm going to address these in the order they appear, since there's a handful of only somewhat related statements here.

1) A computer is not a vehicle, and most maintenance diagnostics are done through visual and special inspection procedures. Mostly visual.

2) Humans under anaesthetics do feel pain. The variables are in the extent and their response to it.

3) What the hell does an organic dye recording layer have to do with this conversation?

4) Good, because that wasn't the topic at hand.

5) Their families, on the other hand, would be more than happy to.

H'K'Maly wrote:I was more talking about the fact that human body composes of 100 trillion cells. Every of these cell is partially independent machine with own autorepair mechanism and every one is replaceable, which is good, because 50 billions of them dies every minute. Every cell also contains complete instructions for rebuilding whole body (unfortunately is not able to use it for that purpose). Cell is surprisingly biggest part of body which can be considered independent: every bigger part is LESS independent and LESS replaceable, and very big number of them needs to be working just to make sure the body is not starting to be damaged.

You can stop aircraft and keep it weeks without energy while you are doing repairs: human body gets unrepairable after several minutes without power or even with power but some critical systems not working. On the other hand, human body can almost completely repair serious damages without need of replacement parts. (Back to negatives, replacement parts for humans have serious incompatibilities.)


I know all this. I wasn't talking about that because it's obvious and I was trying to be funny. On the notion of autorepair, though, I would like to see a machine that fixes itself, no matter how slowly.
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Re: Tei'kaliath Warrior Thread

Postby Durlyn Val'Sarghress on Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:51 am

Whizzard wrote:If anyone can suggest a better wording, please do so, for now the action would look like this:
"Warriors learn forming squads in battle & rigorously practice squad tactics" (75 letters)


Goal: to get people to automatically form squads during battle with closest persons to achieve advantage over single enemies and to apply tactics such as flanking and surrounding in battle independently.



Sounds like a good EA option Whizzard, I say add it as is, it'll have my vote unless the LA throws us a curve ball lol. Anyone else have anything to say about Whizzard's option idea & wording?
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Re: Tei'kaliath Warrior Thread

Postby Ash'arion on Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:18 am

Durlyn Val'Sarghress wrote:
Whizzard wrote:If anyone can suggest a better wording, please do so, for now the action would look like this:
"Warriors learn forming squads in battle & rigorously practice squad tactics" (75 letters)


Goal: to get people to automatically form squads during battle with closest persons to achieve advantage over single enemies and to apply tactics such as flanking and surrounding in battle independently.



Sounds like a good EA option Whizzard, I say add it as is, it'll have my vote unless the LA throws us a curve ball lol. Anyone else have anything to say about Whizzard's option idea & wording?


Looks good to me, but then again I also know what you're going for. You might want to PM ST to lay things out a bit more clearly for him.
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Re: Tei'kaliath Warrior Thread

Postby Whizzard on Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:35 am

Good thinking, Ash, thanks

I'll heave the option up there then.
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Re: Tei'kaliath Warrior Thread

Postby H'K'Maly on Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:31 am

Ash'arion wrote:
H'K'Maly wrote:
H'K'Maly wrote:I mean, we won't be able to fix every problem which may happen.


We may be able to fix SOME problems of the airship, but not EVERY problem.


Yes. That was a point I've tried to raise earlier with other people. I don't see why you felt you needed to explain this to me.


Mainly because I didn't readed that conversation with other people. But also because in 25 Nov 2013, 04:00 post, it didn't looked you are aware of it. Hence the quantifiers discussion.

Ash'arion wrote:
H'K'Maly wrote:In general case, yes. But note that we can't really send our airship back to factory ... so, the fact that we are not able to fix every possible problem is disturbing.


It's not all that disturbing. Factory availability or not, when it comes to the need to meet the capacity to repair damage on an aircraft, the only disturbing variable is whether or not it's on the ground. The lack of more knowledgeable engineers is just annoying, but it also means we don't have anyone's standards to meet. Given that the world is one of magic, the extra freedom is a boon.


Given that the world is one of manatech, I'm not so sure about it. Most standards, especially around aircrafts, are designed to lower the chance something happens "off the ground" which would make additional damage while the aircraft would return on the ground (note that this additional damage may include some deaths). So, yes, I would actually be interested in for example list of how often should which part of airship be serviced.

Ash'arion wrote:
H'K'Maly wrote:Of course, aircraft is much simpler that human body.


Well yes, of course. An aircraft, or any vehicle for that matter, requiring maintenance will not consciously or subconsciously make any effort to work on its parts more difficult. Also, they don't feel pain, so you can beat things into place if you have to. And they're only self-destructive when certain parts of certain systems quit working and the rest of the machine doesn't. They aren't susceptible to infection (although corrosion can get nasty) and also won't sue you if you make a mistake.


Ash'arion wrote:
H'K'Maly wrote:Running computer can easily complicate diagnostic of problem, for example by overwriting logs. Humans under anaesthetics don't feel pain either and some tools used for knee arthroplasty for example definitely count into the "beat things into place" category. And organic dye recording layer of optical media can and often does caught infection - I mean, are rendered unreadable by bacteria or mold. Not speaking about computer viri. Also note that dead patients rarely sue.


Um... ok I'm going to address these in the order they appear, since there's a handful of only somewhat related statements here.

1) A computer is not a vehicle, and most maintenance diagnostics are done through visual and special inspection procedures. Mostly visual.


How old is your car? I assure you that most, if not all, modern cars DO include computer unit and it IS queried for possible problems. In my car, there is even control light with instruction "if this is on, it means computer found some problem and you need to take car to service so they can look at what problem it is". The light will NEVER turn off without clearing the "problem found" flag in service.

And thats cars. There are much more computers on aircraft. And from series about aircraft crashes, yes, examination of logs in black box IS routine part of finding out what caused the crash and yes, there was an issue of logs being overwritten due to limited space.

Ash'arion wrote:2) Humans under anaesthetics do feel pain. The variables are in the extent and their response to it.


Nevertheless, look at how the knee arthroplasty is done.

Ash'arion wrote:3) What the hell does an organic dye recording layer have to do with this conversation?


It's a counterexample to the "machines aren't susceptible to infection". I must admit it's not really machine, much less vehicle, unless you count a CD player playing music part of car functionality.

Ash'arion wrote:4) Good, because that wasn't the topic at hand.


See point 1.

Ash'arion wrote:5) Their families, on the other hand, would be more than happy to.


Families can sue if you don't repair vehicle properly either. Especially families of passengers on your vehicle.

Ash'arion wrote:
H'K'Maly wrote:I was more talking about the fact that human body composes of 100 trillion cells. Every of these cell is partially independent machine with own autorepair mechanism and every one is replaceable, which is good, because 50 billions of them dies every minute. Every cell also contains complete instructions for rebuilding whole body (unfortunately is not able to use it for that purpose). Cell is surprisingly biggest part of body which can be considered independent: every bigger part is LESS independent and LESS replaceable, and very big number of them needs to be working just to make sure the body is not starting to be damaged.

You can stop aircraft and keep it weeks without energy while you are doing repairs: human body gets unrepairable after several minutes without power or even with power but some critical systems not working. On the other hand, human body can almost completely repair serious damages without need of replacement parts. (Back to negatives, replacement parts for humans have serious incompatibilities.)


I know all this. I wasn't talking about that because it's obvious and I was trying to be funny.


That may explain why the examples you choose didn't really worked.

Ash'arion wrote:On the notion of autorepair, though, I would like to see a machine that fixes itself, no matter how slowly.


I think there were some experimental prototypes of non-humanoid robots exploring this idea. Not there yet, of course, but interesting to watch anyway. I suppose that we will be able to make machines like this earlier that true (turing-tested) AI.

==================================

H'K'Maly wrote:
Ash'arion wrote:
H'K'Maly wrote:I would assume drows already HAVE some way to measure mana - and if they won't, it means there are some difficulties with it we wouldn't be able to overcame so easily.


With current available means, they can determine its presence or absence, or its quantity but only in vague terms. When it comes to things like engineering with mana cores, the terms 'a little', 'a lot', and 'too much' are not suitable. Especially when dealing with things that require critical or near-critical levels of charge in a given core, considering that crossing the line leads to a grievously injuring or fatal explosion. Things with a risk like that are NOT suited to guesswork. Therefore, I want to start the process that will lead to our community, if not the drow one overall, being able to actually see where the line is.


I meant that perhaps it would be more useful to simply ask the envoy how Balvhakara calibrate their instruments. Because otherwise we end up with something like imperial units or Fahrenheits against SI.


Yupii! My idea was explored in comics! ... and I see we are already too late for SI. Agneya, Thalamani, Diva, Nin'dil ... bonus points for Diva trying to set up standard, but apparently she wasn't able to force even just Chel to use it. Not enough army, I suppose.

Wonder what standard Snadhya plans to use when she'll get that unique opportunity to set one (by killing most of Chel).
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Re: Tei'kaliath Warrior Thread

Postby Ash'arion on Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:50 am

Given that the world is one of manatech, I'm not so sure about it. Most standards, especially around aircrafts, are designed to lower the chance something happens "off the ground" which would make additional damage while the aircraft would return on the ground (note that this additional damage may include some deaths). So, yes, I would actually be interested in for example list of how often should which part be serviced.


Me too. I hope that something like that is included among the documents we found at the Northern Airport, and the information is brought up by Min's investigation of the subject, which she said she'll do in the LA.

How old is your car? I assure you that most, if not all, modern cars DO include computer unit and it IS queried for possible problems. In my car, there is even control light with instruction "if this is on, it means computer found some problem and you need to take car to service so they can look at what problem it is". The light will NEVER turn off without clearing the "problem found" flag in service.

And thats cars. There are much more computers on aircraft. And from series about aircraft crashes, yes, examination of logs in black box IS routine part of finding out what caused the crash and yes, there was an issue of logs being overwritten due to limited space.


My car is about 4 years old. It does have a computer on it, and I will admit there are occasions where the computer provides incorrect information, such as when the TPMS is responding incorrectly and tells me the wrong tire is low on air. But the car can function just fine without the computer's input, and it does not provide even half the information necessary for its maintenance. But the day when visual and manual investigations are discarded in favor of computer readouts is a long time coming. There is just too much information that can only be detected via human perception and external instruments.

Regarding aircraft maintenance... the black box is only used in the event of a crash, and aircraft are repaired and maintained on far more occasions than there are crashes. Most aircraft inspections and maintenance are carried out in the same manner as that for ground vehicles, albeit with more precise instruments and more powerful tools, respectively. Not to mention the higher standards of calibration for everything, most of which is done with hand tools, at least in the military. The operative word in your statement is 'part', and how old was that issue? Computers can hold far more information now than even 5 years ago, and official aircraft companies tend to have people who are smart enough to update their equipment regularly.

Yupii! My idea was explored in comics! ... and I see we are already too late for SI. Agneya, Thalamani, Diva, Nin'dil ... bonus points for Diva trying to set up standard, but apparently she wasn't able to force even just Chel to use it.


I'm working on that. Hopefully, the interest in the shared pursuit of knowledge will manage to overcome the demands to meet somebody's ego. I will be happy to at least be credited with taking steps in that direction.
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Re: Tei'kaliath Warrior Thread

Postby H'K'Maly on Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:22 pm

Ash'arion wrote:
How old is your car? I assure you that most, if not all, modern cars DO include computer unit and it IS queried for possible problems. In my car, there is even control light with instruction "if this is on, it means computer found some problem and you need to take car to service so they can look at what problem it is". The light will NEVER turn off without clearing the "problem found" flag in service.

And thats cars. There are much more computers on aircraft. And from series about aircraft crashes, yes, examination of logs in black box IS routine part of finding out what caused the crash and yes, there was an issue of logs being overwritten due to limited space.


My car is about 4 years old. It does have a computer on it, and I will admit there are occasions where the computer provides incorrect information, such as when the TPMS is responding incorrectly and tells me the wrong tire is low on air. But the car can function just fine without the computer's input, and it does not provide even half the information necessary for its maintenance.


Part of instructions for my car is that it is not possible to start it by going down the hill, because the computer will get confused and would control the spark plugs incorrectly. So I don't think the car would function just fine without the computer's input. Not sure how common is this issue, of course, but I suppose that cars without manual transmission are even more likely to not work due computer.

Ash'arion wrote:But the day when visual and manual investigations are discarded in favor of computer readouts is a long time coming. There is just too much information that can only be detected via human perception and external instruments.


Unfortunately, the fact that visual and manual investigations provide more information to skilled mechanics doesn't guarantee they will stay prevalent method of investigations.

Ash'arion wrote:Regarding aircraft maintenance... the black box is only used in the event of a crash, and aircraft are repaired and maintained on far more occasions than there are crashes. Most aircraft inspections and maintenance are carried out in the same manner as that for ground vehicles, albeit with more precise instruments and more powerful tools, respectively. Not to mention the higher standards of calibration for everything, most of which is done with hand tools, at least in the military. The operative word in your statement is 'part', and how old was that issue? Computers can hold far more information now than even 5 years ago, and official aircraft companies tend to have people who are smart enough to update their equipment regularly.


Most aircraft maintenance is done in situation when the computers doesn't report any problems, BECAUSE any problem detected by computer would be really serious (and would point to some previous inspection failing). I still think it counts as counterexample. And yes, that issue was certainly old, in fact I suspect the whole series is more that five years old now.

If you are interested in more direct case of computer problems, what about that mars explorer vehicle? Hell, that vehicle IGNORED direct command! Generally, ANYTHING in space rely more on computers, because it's hard (and expensive) to get mechanics to visually inspect it there. Also, most mechanics would object unless you will also be able to get them back home.

Ash'arion wrote:
Yupii! My idea was explored in comics! ... and I see we are already too late for SI. Agneya, Thalamani, Diva, Nin'dil ... bonus points for Diva trying to set up standard, but apparently she wasn't able to force even just Chel to use it.


I'm working on that. Hopefully, the interest in the shared pursuit of knowledge will manage to overcome the demands to meet somebody's ego. I will be happy to at least be credited with taking steps in that direction.


You are incorrigible optimist. Note the imperial units use in US ... and drows are much more individualistic that humans.

On the other hand, better try and fail that not try at all.
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Re: Tei'kaliath Warrior Thread

Postby goblin6 on Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:26 am

We've landed at our destination, I think the most appropriate actions for the warriors are to secure the surrounding area. Especially since Mimaneid is not that far from Shifae'sindil. On the off chance they or a patrol unit spotted our airship, they might deploy some scouts in our direction.
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Re: Tei'kaliath Warrior Thread

Postby Gojinki on Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:31 am

unless im reading the update wrong I don't think we have landed, just flying low.
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Re: Tei'kaliath Warrior Thread

Postby goblin6 on Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:33 am

Gojinki wrote:unless im reading the update wrong I don't think we have landed, just flying low.


We'll be landing in the next update, so why wait until then? We could write the advice to secure the area and form a perimeter the moment we land for this turn.
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Re: Tei'kaliath Warrior Thread

Postby Gojinki on Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:38 am

Where does it say that? ^^; I must really be missing something and I apologize if I am really this dense. from what i read we are continuing on to the nearest old world city. I assume after that point we will land no?
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Re: Tei'kaliath Warrior Thread

Postby Ash'arion on Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:33 am

Gojinki wrote:Where does it say that? ^^; I must really be missing something and I apologize if I am really this dense. from what i read we are continuing on to the nearest old world city. I assume after that point we will land no?


Don't feel bad. That's what I got from the last panel too. I reiterate my point about ignoring advice from goblin.
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