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Postby Madea on Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:57 am

Personally, I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm just saying it's probably not going to catch on. If she said this aloud, most drow would probably think she was crazy.

I think the issue here is how much of a departure it is, not just from Tir'ay, but from the basic drow viewpoint itself.

Drow don't look at their individuality as a weakness, but a strength, or at least not something to be ashamed of. So, while radical thinking like this isn't impossible, because things have to start somewhere, it's probably not going to be a popular idea. If this is Ves'xile's view, and she tries to spread it, it's up to the individual characters to determine how they'll take it.

More important, I think, is the HOW Ves'xile (or, whichever drow came up with this) came to this conclusion. To a human, this is, at least, a logical mental processes. From the drow perspective/mindset, I have a hard time buying it.
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Postby AuroraDragonKaya on Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:58 am

Kirio, you continue to ignore other suggestions, only able to see your own ideas of what your own philosophies would be.
Do you really want feedback at all?
Maybe you should just rename it "Ves'xile's philosophy" and be done with it.

The latest revision especially doesn't seem to have anything to do with Tir'ay at all...
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Postby kirio on Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:23 am

Granted there is a long way to go. I began with an extreme case to spotlight the differences between the cat-like drowlath vs. dog-like humans. I don't expect the final draft to be anywhere near that extreme. The defining of an impossible ideal provides a framework to examine what is and is not possible.

Clan loyality and aligning one's personal goals and ambitions with those of the clan are not alien to drowlath just very difficult, look at Nei'kalsa and Sarnel Sarghress and contrast that to the appalling faiiures of Syphile who lets pride, self-centerness and self-aggrandizement get in the way of improving her position in the clan. Her complete failure to empathize with others leaves her unable to predict or account for the reactions other's have to her behavior. This kind of detached raw ambition can also be seen in Jer'kole. It is not a complete barrier to drowlath success. Snadhya'runes, Sene'kha, and Asira'malika (as she is protrayed in Daydream) exhibit a similar distain for overall group successes but unlike Syphile they are adept at concealing the extent of their personal ambition from those whose cooperation they require.

Chrys'tel took the effort to correct the weaknesses in Faen to promote the goals of her mother and clan not for her own personal benefit. She actually points out to Faen the sacrifice she is making to her own prestige by making an effort to educate her.

A working goal of the philosophy is to develop a coordinated ethical system to take full advantage of strategies like those taught by Zala'ess and Nei'Kalsa and hinted at in conversations between Kelnoz and Tralin.
Last edited by kirio on Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby AuroraDragonKaya on Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:36 am

**sighs**

Kirio, there's just a couple problems.

1. What you've written has absolutely NOTHING to do with Tir'ay.

2. So far, you've not listened to any of the feedback given to you. You've not taken anything in, and ignored some of what was said.

It seems all you want is for people to help you reaffirm your ideas and philosophies.

My proposal-

It is very clear this thread is about Ves'xile/Kirio's philosophy, not about a philosophy involving Tir'ay at all. Just rename the thread to reflect this.
There's nothing wrong with that!


If you really want this to be a philosophy about Tir'ay, then be prepared to listen to others, change things, and let ideas go when its clear they aren't accepted.
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Postby kirio on Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:50 am

The only suggestion I have rejected out of hand is the uncompromising complete (and only half-heartedly suported by evidence) rejection of the whole idea.

Draft 2 was composed with your primary technical objections taken into account.
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Postby AuroraDragonKaya on Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:55 am

Yes, the pillars of your philosophy are found unacceptable, and not just by me. In fact, thus far you are the only one who supports them.
You WERE given suggestions for other points to center your philosophy around, which you ignored.

Furthermore, you were given very explicit reasons WHY those points don't work well with Drow OR with Tir'ay. Again, this was ignored.

Continuing this under the name is a Facade, at best.
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Postby kirio on Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:00 am

That is why I presented in the post above where those pillars appear in the behavior of drowlath. To make it clear that this is not coming out of a void, but as an extension of existing drowlath values.
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Postby Q on Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:07 am

(This message was written at the start of the day, but forgot to post it then )

I see where you are going, and I am still against it.

Simply because Tir'Ay won`t be a martial art that existed for years, it existed for centuries, almost millenias.

It is too drastically against the drow nature.
Anyone who adheres to a religion or a philosophy do so because he feels that in the whole ( or part of it ) reaches him... or by brain wash...

If trying to be better at Tir'Ay is thriving toward that philosophy of humility and stuff.... Chances are only a small enclave of people would have practiced it, the other drows seeing it as a weakness of depending so much on the others.
Then if you say : but people might have joined for the greatness of the combat. Then either the masses where converted ( and in such a drastically different philosphy, the whole philosphy of the drow race over the centuries changed ) or the masses engulfed the minority of trust-loving drow-huggers and they ended up disappearing to make place to a philosophy that the drow can refer to.

Virtues is something every human hope to achieve. And will join a philosophy that praises virtues only because he feels a connection with his inner goals.
I cannot see why a drow would be the slightest intrested in falling blindlessly in the arms of his peers.
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Postby kirio on Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:28 am

There we go. I wondered if anyone was going to challenge the substance of the presentation. Still haven't got a counter proposal, so I guess I'll have to build one from the hints and scraps that have come up so far.
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Postby kirio on Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:45 am

OK ADK, Knowledge, Awareness, and Will
While none of these adresses the central problem of building a unified community of inherently solitary and aloof beings, they do form a basis for structuring training.

'Will' seems to be resolved with the meditations. The material I presented there is not particularly controversial. The practice of channeling and controlling emotion through visualization during a solitary meditation would appeal to the drow desire for personal improvement. Presenting the various mental disciplines through the concepts of elemental affinity would make the meditations easier for drow to comprehend.

'Awareness' This is a very broad topic and needs to first be broken into personal awareness and environmental awareness or as some schools put it: the world within and the world without. Whether these are then pulled back together into a unified visualization depends on the school (Tao particulary stresses this unity).

Inner awareness: A training series that teaches the student how to evaluate (and manipulate) personal strength, flexibility, endurance, mana reserve, individual muscle control and dexterity, and ultimately respiration, heart rate, blood pressure and the seeping losses of mana when isolated.

Outer awareness: A training series that develops the six senses of the drow: sight, hearing, touch, smell, taste, and mana vision.

'Knowledge' Without further specification this becomes an open 'catch all' catagory and very hard to define. Knowledge of 'right' behavior indicates a moral code of some sort. Knowledge of the world overlaps with outer awareness and refers more to an ethic of scholership.
An ethic of scholership is a broad and widely accepted thing, but is probably only for purists. A common soldier would only maintain a cursory compliance with such a requirement.

A moral code is universal to all martial traditions I'm aware of, but as our debate to date shows it is littered with explosive controversy.
The fundemental issue that a drow moral code would have is: What kind of code will resolve the inherent conflict between the aloof and independent nature of drowlath with clan structure?
So far, we have no acceptable answers to this question.
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Postby Q on Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:28 pm

Give me some time, I will make a counter proposal today.
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Postby Q on Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:49 pm

A second philosophy on Tir'Ay, proposal.

Life is hard.

Emphasis on achievement and in-life application ; you can have your personnal goals, but that is not what is taught here. This world is a harsh one, and if you don't know how to survive, you will die.

We are a clan, and our art is the art of the clan. Look at the left, and look at your right, those are your fellow members. But right now, they are your opponents. For your sake become stronger. For you because this world does not need any weaklings. For you because the stronger you are, the better challenge you will be for those surronding you, so they will improve and become stronger and so be a better challenge for you, and you will be able to improve even more.
There is no shame in a quick victory against a smaller opponent, but there is no reward neither.
The art is a protector of the clan. The performer of the art is a survivor. As long as you remember your teaching, you will be a proud upholder of your clan and others will know your status, they will know why you are their superior.
Protect the clan, do what is needed to do so. Do not think of others because they will do the same.
Trust their will to survive.
The real world is a series of challenges for the survivor.
Go through your challenges, do not wait for anyone to beat those for you. And others will do the same.
Become strong as if you were alone. Become strong for the whole clan. Become strong as if you were the only one left.
If you rely too much on others you will be cornered and killed. You will be a dead-weight to your fellow drow. Is that what you want ?
Remember that the end justifies the means. Use your fellow drows as tools, just as they will use you as theirs ; do not get upset. Even the best blacksmith won`t be able to forge without a hammer.

Remember that the performer of the art protects himself to protect the clan. Remember that you can`t expect every potter, every farmer, every fisher to protect what he represents for the clan. Be ready to carry for two, or three if needed.
Remember, you must become strong just like you were alone. So when weaknesses comes and bites you from behind. You will be strong enough to overcome it.


So yeah, here`s a rough draft open for discussion/feedback.
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Postby kirio on Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:37 am

OK Q,
You're missing a key point of Drow psychology here. You don't need to remind or even mention not relying of others. This is so natural to drow that it is a given. Humans need to be reminded of this because they naturally lean on each other for support. Drow with the opposite tendency need to be reminded that they are part of a clan. This is especially improtant because our clan has no blood ties to overcome the natural tendency to act independantly.
Drow pride being what it is, a mention of victory over a much weaker opponent as not being of much value is again not something worth spending words on. Rather, encouraging the weak to face up to the challenge of a stronger opponent without flinching would be more important and more challenging than with humans. Since humans typically assume either rescue from allies or restraint from a stronger opponent it takes less to motovate them to compete against an obviously more powerful or skilled individual. Drow being of a more solitary nature would be less embarrassed to turn tail and run in the face of poor odds because they have very little reason, instinctively, to expect restraint from an opponent and no expectation of aid from others.

In that same vein, drow would not need to be reminded to concentrate on their own training and not be mindful of other's progress. It is already a basic trait in their psychology. The real challenge would be to make sure that they are reliable and responsible training partners in pair drills and sparring.
Agian self-reliance is something humans need intensive training to achieve but is an entirely normal and natural mental state for drow. There is no need to waste words on the obvious. The real challenge for drow is to coordinate with others to avoid wasting their own and other's efforts on redundant activity or getting in each other's way.

'the end justifies the means' Don't mistake recklessness and brutality for a virtue simply because it would define a difference between drow and human. The only clan in Drowtales to have embraced that approach is the Nidraa'chal. On the individual level, several important characters have also embraced this tactic: Vy'chriel Vel'Sharen, Snahya'runes Vel'Sharen, Sene'kha Vel'Vloz'ress, Mir'kiin Vel'Vloz'ress, Khal'harror Val'Beldrobbaen, Ky'ovarde Val'Kyorl'solenurn, Syphile, and Jer'kol Saghress. This rogues gallery has little to reccomend it in terms of long term success. The choice of means to achieve a goal has consequences that last long after the goal is achieved. A poor choice of means (although they may expidite a particular goal) will lose you allies and increase your enemies.

The last paragraph hits the real issue pretty close by connecting personal strength to service to the clan. The thing I would alter would be: 'when weakness bites you...' to 'when a weakness of the clan threatens you, your strength can overcome it defending your person, home, and clan.'

One thing that is pretty obvious to humans that would be a challenge to recognize for drow is that improving the welfare and security of the group also improves the welfare and security of the individual.
With the glaring counter-example of Snadhya'runes, older successful drow in positions of authority are the ones who most clearly recognize this fact. Kelnoz and Zala'ess (among drowlath leaders) demonstrate this understanding most clearly, and Tralin's dream of a coalition of male faern to defend the rights of males is founded on that concept.
Teaching the importance of group security and group strength to young drowlath can't help but be a very long gradual process that will only succeed fully with a minority (if one rejects the brainwashing techniques of the Kyorls). However, partial success is essential for the survival of any clan insomuch as it is necessary that all members recognize that the achievement of their personal goals is tied to the survival of the clan itself.
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Postby Q on Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:30 pm

Maybe it was more an answer to yours, I can agree to that...

On the other hand, even if some of this stuff goes without saying for a drow. Taking conscience of those facts is a different thing.
Maybe it`s something you`d do unconsciously.... but what if you started to do it counsciously ? You can suddenly take decisions where you think about it, instead of doing it by reflex, and maybe... make a better decision about it.
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Postby kirio on Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:50 am

Q wrote:Maybe it was more an answer to yours, I can agree to that...

On the other hand, even if some of this stuff goes without saying for a drow. Taking conscience of those facts is a different thing.
Maybe it`s something you`d do unconsciously.... but what if you started to do it counsciously ? You can suddenly take decisions where you think about it, instead of doing it by reflex, and maybe... make a better decision about it.


Yes, I figured it was more a reaction to the extreme philosophy I outlined at first. :)
Certainly, some of the more instinctive aspects you listed would be included to call attention to them in just the way you mentioned. After all, military training for humans includes quite a bit of mental training to assure obedience to leaders. Such obedience is instinctive, but making it a conscious thing and making sure that certain types of orders get priority and reflexively rapid response is a central concern in boot camps of all countries and eras.
For drow a corrosponding behavior would be mental training in self-reliance (as you mentioned) --particularly, taking responsibility for one's own training regimen and using one's own judgement to determine how best to fulfill the orders given by a commander (as opposed to being paralyzed by indecision when given a vague directive).

Any comments on the list of training topics I wrote based on ADK's suggestions?
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