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Re: EA Updated- Day 15: Rock/Metal Low & Large Creatures Sighted

Postby Jaibyrd on Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:07 pm

Well, shot down again about the mana specialist, so my thought is, should we lobby for support from the ranked members for this? And if so, how do we go about doing that? I mean, at this point is a "Lobby for support among ranked members for mana specialist position," vote option make any sense?
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Re: EA Updated- Day 15: Rock/Metal Low & Large Creatures Sighted

Postby Writer on Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:08 pm

Well, the clan's spoken, and no joy on the mana issue, despite the seeming lack of other important decisions to make. I called it as I saw it, that mana specialist were needed and that the clan had simply been distracted when the issue first came by. And if it wasn't enough this time either, well, we'll do without. Hrm. The clan does seem to turn towards a mana-less direction, and is heavy on martial art. Monk clan? Heh...Our current home -does- look sort of like a monastery, doesn't it?

Anyway, Due'gar's used up his allotment of bravery on this issue, and won't press it again. Being chastised by the Ill'haress once is enough for him. Hoo boy.

I do have a question though. Is it the number of players alone that decides the outcome (well, of course it is, but...), or would it have been wise to provide a list of justifications along with the vote option here on the forum for the comic?


Example justifications for a mana specialist:

-The engineers need power stones. They may be able to construct these themselves, but having a mana specialist to confer with may also help.
- The use of mana focus(-es) to gain skills above and above the average Tei'kaliath could help some professions be more efficient (for example, fire foci for the smith, earth foci for the architect, bone foci for the healers to allow them to fix that guy's broken ribs, etc.). The mana specialist would be needed to construct these. (On that note, I -thought- the builders would need earth foci to properly quarry stone with mana, and that mana use was severely limited, leaving us to work with normal tools. Madea has recently implied otherwise, at least for the builders, in the Closed ranked thread, so hey, maybe I misunderstood.)

Jaybird: The question is, do we want to repeat the issue again and again until An'jhali (Kern) gets tired of it and prevents us from asking again? I mean, right now was a prime time to vote for it, but I "only" got nine votes (far more than I had hoped for, actually, so thanks you guys). There simply hasn't been enough support to let us get such a rank (although it's been semi-close), meaning people either a) aren't prioritizing it or b) doesn't think it's worth voting for. So I guess that means it's the will of the clan for us to make do without a mana specialist. Now, I don't assume having a mana specialist will 'fix everything', but I did think it would come in handy. Right now, however, I'm prepared to go on without it, following the vote. Would be interesting, wouldn't it? A clan that doesn't rely on the aura.
Last edited by Writer on Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: EA Updated- Day 15: Rock/Metal Low & Large Creatures Sighted

Postby Zafia on Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:13 pm

Yay! Ill'haress An'jhali has started to build her own personality! (Also, she kicks butt! }:3 )
Jaibyrd wrote:Well, shot down again about the mana specialist, so my thought is, should we lobby for support from the ranked members for this? And if so, how do we go about doing that? I mean, at this point is a "Lobby for support among ranked members for mana specialist position," vote option make any sense?

I think just having some of the ranked members mention it to her that it may be a good idea would do for that, and otherwise more people just need to vote for it, I think the reason it didn't get enough support was because lots of people just wanted a little break after all that Relentless business... I know that was why I didn't vote for it this time.
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Re: EA Updated- Day 15: Rock/Metal Low & Large Creatures Sighted

Postby Novusod on Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:33 pm

I don't think anyone got hurt in Tir'ay practice Mistress Khanzalika.

The big thing that happened in this update is that the idea of a Mana Specialist is now dead. It is not just that clan is not giving much support for it but the Ill'haress ((Kern)) is openly opposed to the idea.

If she is opposed to magic perhaps we can blind her with science. An Alchemist rank could do almost everything a Mana specialist could but just go about it in a different way. Potions like ether, pain killers, or truth serums (sodium pentathol) would be seen as magical to the non-scientifically minded. Chemical explosives are fairly easy to make as well from base substances if you know what you are doing. Being a Macro game the Alchemist would know how to do these things.

There are lots of magical based drowolath clans out there but I think it would be interesting to see how far we can go in developing a science and engineering based clan. Something never before seen in the underworld.
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Re: EA Updated- Day 15: Rock/Metal Low & Large Creatures Sighted

Postby Hetros on Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:35 pm

I second the engineering idea, Master Crafters and Engineers... it'd be fun to turn the front of our caverns into a maze of traps <evil cackle>
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Re: EA Updated- Day 15: Rock/Metal Low & Large Creatures Sighted

Postby Jeriah on Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:45 pm

((An'jhali has always been building a personality. But with the lack of things to vote on, the status update on her progress was the only thing to fill the pages in with. Almost all of the things stated on that page are what have been stated over the respective pages of the past months. (So I can't say I gained any new insight. Felt like a recap episode of filler anime.) Also a rather low turnout on votes. Barely 40. Last week had over 50, I think. And the week before that, over 60. However, even if the other 20 joined in, the ratio of votes would probably have remained the same.

At least we know where the Clan stands though. We don't want mana arts. It's one thing when it's up against a pressing issue, but when it loses against the options of 'Hey, let's party.' it's a clear statement on what our general opinion is of mana. So all the mana specialist supporters can do is wait for an event to prompt An'jhali to directly ask for a mana artist herself. However, given that we just inadvertently created a history of the Clan's lack of reliance on mana, I wouldn't hold my breath.

As for Alchemists, couldn't the crafters cover that area?))
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Re: EA Updated- Day 15: Rock/Metal Low & Large Creatures Sighted

Postby Writer on Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:57 pm

Novusod wrote:The big thing that happened in this update is that the idea of a Mana Specialist is now dead. It is not just that clan is not giving much support for it but the Ill'haress ((Kern)) is openly opposed to the idea.


Eeert! Not correct. The Ill'haress told us to gather more support if we want to justify the implementation of a mana specialist, and made arguments for why not to devote time to it...Right now. That's all (besides the "inadvertantly creating a history for 'by the sweat of our brows'" thing Jeriah mentioned, which I'm unsure is what was really meant). The mana use is one of the drows' greatest strengths (and, in regards to the demons, their greatest weakness), but it doesn't -have- to be relied on, and Kern has gone a long way to tell us that we absolutely shouldn't do so. Still, it can be useful.

For the time being, however, it doesn't seem necessary to repeat the idea, given the lack of support. Unless a majority of you spontaneously decide to throw your support behind such an option on the next turn, and the ranked members make requests to An'jhali, fulfilling An'jhali's requirements, there's really no need to repeat it. That doesn't mean we should abandon the idea completely, though. We could let a day or three pass (in-game) and see how things progress before deciding to make another attempt or not. Gauge the need, speculate further on where mana arts could help and where it would be necessary. We should definitely not count mana arts out altogether. Eventually we will most likely need them enough, to one degree or another, to properly ask for a mana specialist, IMO.

The science, engineering, master crafter idea is -not- all that far-fetched, but it wouldn't exclude using mana to help it along, would it? Heck, it'd be obligatory to use mana for the brunt of (golem) devices that the engineers can come up with. If this comes to pass, a mana specialist could really be useful to have.
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Re: EA Updated- Day 15: Rock/Metal Low & Large Creatures Sighted

Postby Thorn on Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:58 pm

Novu, I doubt that the mana specialist idea is dead and burried.

Just the clan has more pressing concerns at the moment.

If you really want a mana specialist made, contact one of the ranked members, or get alot of the clan to vote on the issue, just as she said.

But for now, the clan is owrrying about other things.

It isnt dead though.
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Re: EA Updated- Day 15: Rock/Metal Low & Large Creatures Sighted

Postby Jaibyrd on Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:14 pm

The real issue is we have no true source of power to process any raw materials we have or will get - or even to augment our abilities to get more material. Granted mana isn't going to magically make our problems go away, however we have no set way of making power, like we (as humans) use electricity, or in ages past we've used fire and steam, as well as sunlight, wind and other elements we cannot use or have access to underground. However, Drow produce a type of "power" in mana as a byproduct naturally, so to find some other way of securing a power source and ignoring what is already there for the taking in such an environment is like looking a gift horse in the mouth and a waste of resources period. Even with an Alchemist position, the technology that is proposed to be made by said position still needs something to power that technology.

And if you've read the Meeting of the Minds thread of late, the Ranked positions really do need a source of power now to help process their materials, it seems to me they are at a stand still because of it in certain respects - or at least waiting on it. *shrugs*
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Re: EA Updated- Day 15: Rock/Metal Low & Large Creatures Sighted

Postby Writer on Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:44 pm

I noted this too, Jaybird. In several conversations and threads I read there came a return to the usefulness of mana arts and that we needed it, or it could be useful, for various tasks, which is why I made the assumption that it really -was- needed and now was as good a time as any to ask for it. These discussions were why I had Due'gar say there was a -growing- need for a mana specialist, to reflect the fact that ideas for mana use were being tossed around, also by ranked members looking for ways to do their work.

Due'gar assumed to ask for one now would be to beat the horse to the punch by giving the Ill'haress a chance of meeting the apparent demand, and that he could get the support necessary to persuade her. But assumption makes fools of he and me. Yes, we can go for a while (a -really- long while if the clan really goes in for it), working with what we have without a mana specialist. Beyond the golems there's no obvious 'power source' needs that need to be fulfilled, and I bet the engineers can fix that on their own, eventually. So there's not much to do about the issue than wait and see what happens next. And I'm okay with that. 's the way the challenge works.
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Re: EA Updated- Day 15: Rock/Metal Low & Large Creatures Sighted

Postby Novusod on Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:48 pm

I just don't see the pressing need for a mana specialist right now. We are already using a great deal of mana already to do things. We are not overlooking a resource here just because we do not have a mana specialist. The Blacksmith's forge is mana powered. The crafter has a mana powered kiln. Even the Architect and builders effectively used mana to collapse the building on the slavers. I have been reading the meeting of the minds thread and there seems to be a bit of hand waving in just let magic solve a problem. This what the Ill'haress seems opposed to so lets try to work around it. We can solve our problems without complex sorceries.

We can't over reach ourselves here especially when a simple plan will work just as well as a complex one. For example we don't need to wait for mana specialist to open the doors in the basement. The basic mana we do have can weaken the door while we can use the lizard and chains to pull it off its hinges. The doors themselves represent a source of steel for new tools, weapons, and armor. We don't need complex fire sorceries to open the door or reforge it into other things. Also salvaging the doors for scrap saves us for the time being at least from having to open the mine and having to deal with processing raw ores.

Things we do need right now are pain killers and anesthetic either for healers and mind altering drugs for the prisoners since we can't use mana empaths. The Alchemist rank would basically be the clan's scientist and in this macro game science may go a lot further than complex mana sorceries. Look at all the things Heron of Alexandria invented or Leonardo Di'vinci came up with. Heron basically solved your fountain puzzle for you guys and he did it without mana.
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Re: EA Updated- Day 15: Rock/Metal Low & Large Creatures Sighted

Postby Tohya on Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:49 am

You would need about 20 votes to get a new ranked position. Mana use will continue the way it has until we get a Mana Specialist, then the new rules talked about in the 'On Mana Arts' thread in the Vault would take effect and we would have more options on what we could do with mana.

Heron's toy fountain doesn't solve our water problem, it will stop working once the basin empties, then you have to reset it. A similar option is a water ram, which would work but is difficult to build with our limited resources.

We have access to water power both in the ruin and at the river.
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Re: EA Updated- Day 15: Rock/Metal Low & Large Creatures Sighted

Postby tanarill on Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:01 am

At the river would be easier to get but harder to move. Unless we have a way of storing mechanical energy . . .

Actually, that's not a bad idea for future use. You can do all kinds of stuff with a water mill. I'm not suggesting we try to build one now, of course, but it might be a good eventuality.
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Re: EA Updated- Day 15: Rock/Metal Low & Large Creatures Sighted

Postby Meska369 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:07 am

If we get enough metal, I was hopping to make springs. There are some great machines that can be made to work without our help. There is a unlimited resource for power, but it's all to do with springs and gears. Golems that are VERY simple and require no mana.
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Re: EA Updated- Day 15: Rock/Metal Low & Large Creatures Sighted

Postby Kir'ima on Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:13 am

Wind-up mice that we can release to scare the enemy's [s]elephants[/s] lizards. :U
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