[Hfar]

Ah, on the volunteer donation part, let me ask you a question: if you didn't have to pay for it would you pay it?

Me personally? Yep. Would I expect everyone to, including new players? nnnnnnope.

Well there you go. Since you are willing, you can pay for it now and those who you don't expect to pay for it don't have to. Easy as pie.

While it is true that some people might donate, there's quite frankly no guarantee that they would, especially considering the fuss some people are raising over the price tag now. This method, while somewhat heavy handed, will guarantee that people who are serious will make that commitment.

It also guarantees that not many commitments will be made. Which means less money for kern. This isn't a difficult concept, but you seem to be struggling with it.

Ah, but while fewer those commitments are still guaranteed money and makes a more likely chance that those who become nobles will not flake out on their responsibilities which in turn will make for a better game atmosphere.

Not so much indifferent as we see the validity of both points of view. The reason why we support the current option is because we believe that it will be beneficial to the site both in the short and long term.

You believe, I have shown. This will not be beneficial to the site short or long term.

Oh so? Again, I'm sorry you feel that way.

*nod nod* And for the record I voted for Option 1, but said I could live with 2. And that's what I'm doing. Living with it. Because I accept that I sometimes (hell, often times) cannot get my way.

Sometimes you can though. But only if people work together. You aren't. You are running interference, you are not keeping your indifference to yourself, you are encouraging others to be indifferent. You're like someone who vocally tells people not to vote.

Oh? In that case, would you be willing to put the poll back up so we may resume finding out what the rest of the clan thinks on this matter?

[AthenAltena]

Sometimes you can though. But only if people work together. You aren't. You are running interference, you are not keeping your indifference to yourself, you are encouraging others to be indifferent. You're like someone who vocally tells people not to vote.

Expressing my opinion is running interference, when I said from the beginning that it was just my opinion? And even though you removed the poll, you started this by asking it as a yes or no, not a "be with me or else" as you did later, and I answered honestly. Especially when I said:

I know other people may not be in a situation where they can make that sort of commitment (hell, as of this Tuesday I'm unemployed and looking for a new job) but when I have the means I'm willing to do it.

How is that trying to sway other people or being indifferent to other people when I flat out say "other people may not be able to do it", when you're the one telling people that they're absolutely, 100% wrong because they have a different opinion? I even told Jonarus that he had a valid concern even though I disagreed with the specifics of his theoretical problem since we don't know all the details yet.

I think that's a valid concern, but they're also proposing actions to prevent that, such as banishment and tighter forum moderation. The smaller families do have potential issues, but I imagine they can be worked out.

Most of this has been arguing back and forth with you about semantics, and at this point you're just baiting people and insulting them for disagreeing.

How can there alreadly be four votes to make this a prerequisite

Bite me.

Whine whine whine.

You have every right to disagree with me, but do not twist my words, especially since you're the one who took down the poll once it showed that the majority disagreed with you. The only one running interference is you.

[3Power]

Well there you go. Since you are willing, you can pay for it now and those who you don't expect to pay for it don't have to. Easy as pie.

It's always easy to do the wrong thing.

Ah, but while fewer those commitments are still guaranteed money and makes a more likely chance that those who become nobles will not flake out on their responsibilities which in turn will make for a better game atmosphere.

I think kern would rather have a bunch of steady accounts and a few flakeouts than only a handful of steady accounts. But by all means, tell kern, who desperately wants to make money, how much game atmosphere is important. I'm sure he'll care.

You do... realize that this is the same as what the EA is now right? I mean, the way it is now really isn't that bad. The atmosphere doesn't matter at all at this point.

[Hfar]

Well there you go. Since you are willing, you can pay for it now and those who you don't expect to pay for it don't have to. Easy as pie.

It's always easy to do the wrong thing.

Sometimes the right thing is easy too.

Ah, but while fewer those commitments are still guaranteed money and makes a more likely chance that those who become nobles will not flake out on their responsibilities which in turn will make for a better game atmosphere.

I think kern would rather have a bunch of steady accounts and a few flakeouts than only a handful of steady accounts. But by all means, tell kern, who desperately wants to make money, how much game atmosphere is important. I'm sure he'll care.

That of course is based on the notion that the reverse setup of what's currently been proposed would indeed bring a bunch of steady accounts and only a few flakeouts. So far I have not seen any evidence that would convince me of this argument.

Also, I highly doubt I need to tell Kern to keep doing what he's already doing. Thanks for the suggestion though.

You do... realize that this is the same as what the EA is now right? I mean, the way it is now really isn't that bad. The atmosphere doesn't matter at all at this point.

Ah. And the way the EA is now is so "not bad" that game membership has been dropping for the past quarter.

[3Power]

That of course is based on the notion that the reverse setup of what's currently been proposed would indeed bring a bunch of steady accounts and only a few flakeouts. So far I have not seen any evidence that would convince me of this argument.

I don't think anything would convince you. I get the impression you think Kern could do no wrong. If you really think so, I point to the entire year of waste we just lived through. My words are wasted on you.

Ah. And the way the EA is now is so "not bad" that game membership has been dropping for the past quarter.

Not my point at all, but by all means, explain how charging 55 dollars up front for the exact same thing is supposed to help this?

[Hfar]

That of course is based on the notion that the reverse setup of what's currently been proposed would indeed bring a bunch of steady accounts and only a few flakeouts. So far I have not seen any evidence that would convince me of this argument.

I don't think anything would convince you. I get the impression you think Kern could do no wrong. If you really think so, I point to the entire year of waste we just lived through. My words are wasted on you.

Again, not so much that I think he could do no wrong, but rather I can see the some of the logic behind his decision and to me it is sound enough to support. Although I'm sorry you feel your words are wasted on me since I was hopping we could reach an understanding.

Ah. And the way the EA is now is so "not bad" that game membership has been dropping for the past quarter.

Not my point at all, but by all means, explain how charging 55 dollars up front for the exact same thing is supposed to help this?

Simple: charge people $55 up front to merely submit advice to the EA and get a family portrait while allowing the people who are playing free of charge to both vote on the EA and submit advice to the LA, which is what the current setup does.

[Durlyn Val'Sarghress]

It's unfortunate for new members now, but for us veterans, we're already discussing ways to make it work, because we understand the situation and want to see this succeed.

That's pretty much as I see it, that this will mostly be veterans who have been with the game for years making an investment. The trade off is free accounts that allow new people to see what the game's about before making a financial commitment. And though it hasn't been explained regular paying players still retain rights like being able to vote for projects and actually have more autonomy than they did under the ranked, since they can join any action.

I see it as a fair trade off.

Agreed Athen, as a one time only payment deal it seems fair. One big payment to help fund the game, then from there on you and the family continue on as nobles for Lady Anjhali and the Teikaliath. And the regular players still get to play as they have been, voting and joining actions etc

[3Power]

Simple: charge people $55 up front to merely submit advice to the EA and get a family portrait while allowing the people who are playing free of charge to both vote on the EA and submit advice to the LA, which is what the current setup does.

Wow. You didn't read the update. The FTP peeps do NOT get to submit advice to the LA. Only people with $5 accounts get to do that.

Since you didn't read the update, allow me to summarize.

There will be three account types:
FTP: Faceless, will never be shown, cannot advise in LA. Can support actions in EA. Can read comic.
Standard: $5 per month. Can create character, Can put advice in LA. Can support actions in EA, Can read comic.
Nobility*: $55 dollars first month, $15 dollars for each subsequent. Can create character, can put advice in LA, Can put project in EA. Can read comic.

*assuming 3 family members and that a portrait is indeed required before nobility can be put to use.

[Hfar]

Simple: charge people $55 up front to merely submit advice to the EA and get a family portrait while allowing the people who are playing free of charge to both vote on the EA and submit advice to the LA, which is what the current setup does.

Wow. You didn't read the update. The FTP peeps do NOT get to submit advice to the LA. Only people with $5 accounts get to do that.

Since you didn't read the update, allow me to summarize.

There will be three account types:
FTP: Faceless, will never be shown, cannot advise in LA. Can support actions in EA. Can read comic.
Standard: $5 per month. Can create character, Can put advice in LA. Can support actions in EA, Can read comic.
Nobility*: $55 dollars first month, $15 dollars for each subsequent. Can create character, can put advice in LA, Can put project in EA. Can read comic.

Ah so! Thank you for the clarification!

But then if this is the case, it actually offers more options for new players. They can choose which account type they're comfortable with and work their way up if they so choose. With that one could view the mandatory up front payment as a type of final test to see if you're ready to have the best account around, plus it also assures a wad of cash to maintain the upkeep of the site. The price also sets a bar for said dedicated players, which in some ways I think we're both in agreement on. What we're disagreeing on is how high that bar should be allowed.

So then, how do we find a compromise on this matter?

[3Power]

Simple: charge people $55 up front to merely submit advice to the EA and get a family portrait while allowing the people who are playing free of charge to both vote on the EA and submit advice to the LA, which is what the current setup does.

Wow. You didn't read the update. The FTP peeps do NOT get to submit advice to the LA. Only people with $5 accounts get to do that.

Since you didn't read the update, allow me to summarize.

There will be three account types:
FTP: Faceless, will never be shown, cannot advise in LA. Can support actions in EA. Can read comic.
Standard: $5 per month. Can create character, Can put advice in LA. Can support actions in EA, Can read comic.
Nobility*: $55 dollars first month, $15 dollars for each subsequent. Can create character, can put advice in LA, Can put project in EA. Can read comic.

Ah so! Thank you for the clarification!

But then if this is the case, it actually offers more options for new players. They can choose which account type they're comfortable with and work their way up if they so choose. With that one could view the mandatory up front payment as a type of final test to see if you're ready to have the best account around, plus it also assures a wad of cash to maintain the upkeep of the site. The price also sets a bar for said dedicated players, which in some ways I think we're both in agreement on. What we're disagreeing on is how high that bar should be allowed.

So then, how do we find a compromise on this matter?

We don't, you're a lost cause.

[Catriana]

Hm, I'm curious as to whether or not this family portrait would be similar to the individual pictures we commissioned. Mostly, because if it is, then Hfar, myself, and our character's daughter have already been commissioned, so there would be the question of whether or not this could be transferred over to the remaining three members. I'd probably say no, but it's a thought (especially since our pictures never got uploaded. I forgot to PM Thalar bout that. Oops).

Regardless, I would and still am going to pay, because it's very clearly for the game itself, to get it back on its feet, and I don't really need any special prompting for that. I'll do it because I like this game, I have people I care about who play this game, and I enjoy the connection I have with those people. I hope folks are able to pool their resources together to pay the one time fee, I can certainly understand being frustrated over not having the funds, and I wish those people the best. I can, at the moment, afford it for now, so I'm going to do so while I am still able. Won't be that way in a few months.

At the moment, there are plenty of successful games that are free to play, with additional features should you decide to pay for them(Example being League of Legends). This is fairly similar, and they are promising us some nifty features, so I am in full support of it. It's a smart business move, the normal commissions were 60 dollars for one character, now it's 120 for 3 characters and one child. There were a lot of folks who wanted their characters, and now it's at a fairly affordable price. And if I'm reading it right, members only have to pay the extra 30 dollars if they want their portrait up. Otherwise, once the family is registered as a Noble family, they may upgrade and pay the extra ten dollars a month. That's how I'm reading it at the moment, so correct me if I'm wrong. So if folks pool their funds together, it might not be a strain to register the family at all.

So therein lies my slight confusion. Do members really have to pay the extra 30? It doesn't seem like it, so that should be a load off of some folks' minds. Just the 120, and then after that all family members can upgrade for 10 extra dollars. That doesn't sound unreasonable.

[Hfar]

So therein lies my slight confusion. Do members really have to pay the extra 30? It doesn't seem like it, so that should be a load off of some folks' minds. Just the 120, and then after that all family members can upgrade for 10 extra dollars. That doesn't sound unreasonable.

I'm actually somewhat curious about this as well. Do you *need* to pay for every single family member or do you just need the head of the family and a few other members to make your family a noble one. If so then that makes it considerably easier for larger families like the Al'dun and the Nimaraidh to become nobles.

[3Power]

At the moment, there are plenty of successful games that are free to play, with additional features should you decide to pay for them(Example being League of Legends). This is fairly similar, and they are promising us some nifty features, so I am in full support of it.

They promised us no nifty features. Anyone who wants to keep doing what they are currently able to do needs to spend $15 dollars a month. Players paying $5 a month now get less for it. (I expect a lot of inactive players who only want to read what happens will be dropping ptp as soon as free accounts pop up.) Make no mistake, we are paying more for the same stuff to drag ptp out of the gutter. Everyone who still pays is making a sacrifice. I feel forcing us to first pay for a portrait before we can post in the EA is a step too far. Also, I should point out again that this is not free-to-play. A free account can only read and support EA actions. For them, the game will be like what some of us feared ptp2 would turn into: a multiple choice adventure.

It's a smart business move, the normal commissions were 60 dollars for one character, now it's 120 for 3 characters and one child.

The normal commisions were optional too.

And if I'm reading it right, members only have to pay the extra 30 dollars if they want their portrait up. Otherwise, once the family is registered as a Noble family, they may upgrade and pay the extra ten dollars a month. That's how I'm reading it at the moment, so correct me if I'm wrong. So if folks pool their funds together, it might not be a strain to register the family at all.

I have already addressed this. You are suggesting that members after the third could pay nothing for the portrait if they abstained from being in it? There is no way that will happen. If it worked like that we would all join one big family, give the portrait spotlight to three random members and split the $120 60 ways. Besides the update says "big families that find the cost of nobility too high are encouraged to downsize to active members."

It's possible that could be interpreted as saying "don't pay to show members that won't pay up for it" but it seems to be suggesting that every member of your family needs to be in the portrait.

[Catriana]

I would rather gain clarification from Thalar before making any assumptions, honestly. And yes, we are being promised features, the fact that we get rotating portraits and promises of future customization and interfaces are extra features for paying. To pay and receive nothing would be a lack of extra features.

It is free-to-play. PtP is more than just inputting advices, just as Daydream is more than just inputting advices. in DD, you can read and vote, but you have to pay. For free accounts, you can read and vote on the EA, and you pay not a dime. You have full access to the comic, which was not available before and is not available for any other special comics Drowtales offers, such as Relic Hunters.

The original PtP had us unable to input EA advices at all unless we were ranked. However, you cannot sustain a game which is not making any money by downgrading and then doing nothing. Even with people paying extra for the accounts, without a jumpstart, the game will not be a good investment on the part of the Drowtales team.

Once again, I think we should get some confirmation from the GM before assuming we have to pay for a portrait after the initial one time registration fee. When I read it, I definitely was under the impression that individual family members wanting extra portraits would have to pay, otherwise, they only need pay the 10 dollars a month to upgrade their account. There is nothing in there saying the 30 dollar portrait is mandatory, so I would not assume it to be so. What we do know is mandatory is the one time fee to register the family, and then 10 dollars a month for an upgraded account.

Until we know for sure from the GM, I am withdrawing from the conversation. The GM can easily clarify this for us.

[3Power]

I got a response from thalar. The portrait is indeed a pre-req for nobility. Though she's gonna double-check with kern just to be sure.