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Re: Option 2: Downgrade to a simpler game.

Postby blackjack217 on Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:48 am

Plus this seems to be an open system. Don't like what the someone is doing? Upgrade and tell them so. In Day Dream the only people who can post advice are the SlaveMasters, and there is no resentment there.
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Re: Option 2: Downgrade to a simpler game.

Postby Dice Warwick on Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:54 am

pls dont ......

the rh system sucks the same way ranked sucked here. because if the leader is gone nothing happends. If you disagree with the leader he will kick you (if he is an ass) or you dont get the action done.

Just keep it the way it is.... voting for everyone and maybe making advises for those who pay more, but dont give a again only a few all the might.

that's how things are in RH,with the leader having all the power. my idea works a little better, as it give power to more then one player, and it would be based on a system that already works. the main problem with PtP is getting people to join in, if the players feel like they have little to no say in the game, they will not care to join in with the grater community.

RH has gone through a lot of evolution to get to were it is, allowing more then just 6 players per story, and the story itself able to move much smoother then before, but the grater individuality had to be sacrificed to get there. for PtP, the individuality has to be increased, so everyone able to have their own say is a must.
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Re: Option 2: Downgrade to a simpler game.

Postby Catriana on Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:00 am

Well, it would require cooperation of the families involved, so I could see more individuality since families are closer in PTP than squads in RH. There's a greater sense of community here, since we are a community.

The only issue I would see is larger families fighting amongst each other, but I'm not entirely sure if this would become an issue or not, since we could all take on various projects to be endorsed. This would require more communication in the forums(I still refuse to use Skype), but I think it could work out.
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Re: Option 2: Downgrade to a simpler game.

Postby Dice Warwick on Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:08 am

well the system I thought up would put a voting system within the families, so collectively each family can work on their own project, or join with other families. and the voting system used can be the same as the one for Daydream, with ranked people with the ability to make actions. and if we had a separate shoutbox for each family, were the voting and other stuff can be discussed among just the family, that would help with communication. Then the forum can be used to further organize the families together.

it's a stable system.
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Re: Option 2: Downgrade to a simpler game.

Postby FSEffect on Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:16 am

Tibanna Vilrath wrote:pls dont ......

the rh system sucks the same way ranked sucked here. because if the leader is gone nothing happends. If you disagree with the leader he will kick you (if he is an ass) or you dont get the action done.

Just keep it the way it is.... voting for everyone and maybe making advises for those who pay more, but dont give a again only a few all the might.


You're forgetting in RH the GM can disband and remerge the group if the leader disappears, this has happened before in my squad and we STILL got our votes in. If leaders are being dicks they won't get very far after all this is a team game. It's also possible to add bots in RH so I see no reason why they don't in this scenario. Unlike the ranked system not everyone of the same class get stuck in the same unwanted action, another squad can fill up actions they deem more important.
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Re: Option 2: Downgrade to a simpler game.

Postby Catriana on Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:17 am

I like it. Daydream has a very successful system working, so I'm down.

The only thing I'm curious about is classes. How would classes work under this new system with families?
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Re: Option 2: Downgrade to a simpler game.

Postby Hfar on Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:19 am

Catriana wrote:This would require more communication in the forums(I still refuse to use Skype), but I think it could work out.

That's another problem, since many people seem to prefer communicating over Skype rather than the forums. In the past it seems like Skype was where a lot of the backroom politicking went on that lead to the major inner community disputes, especially since Skype sessions aren't moderated like the forums are. But then I'm not certain what or if anything can be done about it. It's maddening.

Catriana wrote:I like it. Daydream has a very successful system working, so I'm down.

The only thing I'm curious about is classes. How would classes work under this new system with families?

Good question and one that I'm rather curious about as well. If only a few members of a family pay for noble status, then what about the rest of the family?
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Re: Option 2: Downgrade to a simpler game.

Postby FSEffect on Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:29 am

Dice Warwick wrote:
pls dont ......

the rh system sucks the same way ranked sucked here. because if the leader is gone nothing happends. If you disagree with the leader he will kick you (if he is an ass) or you dont get the action done.

Just keep it the way it is.... voting for everyone and maybe making advises for those who pay more, but dont give a again only a few all the might.

that's how things are in RH,with the leader having all the power.


Uh, no. The leader in the RH doesn't have "all the power" as he/she is still answerable to his/her squadmates for any dickery performed and can complain to the gm, as he/she was nominated by the other members of the squad. With squads you get to focus on objectives together, actual planning within your group. Families have have been too stained with drama to use it as the "squad system". Keeping it aesthetics reduces the chance of overt drama
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Re: Option 2: Downgrade to a simpler game.

Postby Sil'Thara on Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:02 am

Seems some of you got my mind thinking about how to address everyone's concerns. TLDR is below.


Hrm...how about the way Thalar ran things before PTP2 was released? It wasn't all that hard on us. We knew what we needed materials for. We formed actions based on what we needed to do what we wanted to do. We just didn't always know how much we had in terms of materials. ^.^ In this way, we're able to still retain the power of the "people" and vote for what we want to do, like we do now. This way, no "few people" hold the majority of power on what gets done. This would also help limit the number of disputes. Also, the people who do bone-headed actions can get slapped upside the head by Thalar.

Now, how would we "train" and "make progress" on the various classes? Good question, huh? Even better one. How would the clan inventory be tracked? Questions that need answers. These are questions that need answers and ideas. I just hope they didn't scrap the PTP1 code. Some of PTP1 worked well from what I've heard. Some people may be PISSED if all their work on classes is just thrown away.

I'm not pleased at the thought of removing the map system. Granted, it has bugs but some of us here are code monkeys and what we don't know, we can LEARN to help our beloved game out. Then comes the question "What about the occasional new class?". Not likely with the way things are setup now. So, I may have to live with the map system being disabled. This would allow us to go back to PTP1's method of "advancement" based on what we "learn" and "unlock" but...that doesn't reflect individual actions, not really. I'm a loss on this.

A lot of hard decisions to make. I don't envy Kern or Thalar at this point. I'm not even making the decisions and just thinking about how to handle it is giving me a minor headache.


TLDR:Basically, we keep the individual aspect of voting and revert to most of Thalar's methods when she first did PTP after Kern stepped down. Meanwhile, add in elements that worked WELL from PTP1. Screw the Ranked. Keep individuality. Question is, what to do with tracking the classes and skills? What about tracking clan inventory? What about the map system? Disabling it may be a good solution if we revert to a simpler style of play but then again...maybe not.
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Re: Option 2: Downgrade to a simpler game.

Postby Tibanna Vilrath on Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:38 am

i couldnt care less about my class thanks to the bugs im still level 1 ... i think like 90% of the players. i will not shed a single tear for it. an i dont care at all for the map the only thing it helps with is exploring and gathering ressources. and even that didnt work well.... (you still have to fish in the ea i.e.)
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Re: Option 2: Downgrade to a simpler game.

Postby Catriana on Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:40 am

From what I can determine, there still isn't going to be a 'ranked', per say. But the reason for offering higher paying accounts is because the funds for PtP is currently depleted. Not everyone could afford an overall price increase, and you cannot offer a special account without members getting something for it. However, it is not the same as the 'ranked' as there will be no one individual in control of an entire class. These noble accounts seem to be something for folks to post actions and projects. Pretty much like with Daydream, where only Slavemaster accounts can input advices. The only difference is that everyone will still be able to input LA advices.

I can dig a system like that, it works fairly well for DD and folks still have the option to input advices to the LA (you don't even get that in DD). Plus, the one time fee to promote one's family is an extra bonus everyone can appreciate.

The clan inventory was tracked in PtP1 well enough, IMO, but it's not something I personally kept up with. I am under the impression that if we move to a simpler system, it's something that's already been worked out and discussed at length between Thalar and The Powers That Be. All that is needed now is our input. What do we want?

Keeping our current system would just be dead weight at this point without anyone to complete the project as planned. In order to move forward, we're going to need to step back for a bit.
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Re: Option 2: Downgrade to a simpler game.

Postby James Rye on Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:27 pm

I just don´t want rankeds to return that´s all. If people who pay more gets to get some extra stuff then that´s fair.
But i agree that we would have to work months to repair PtP 2.0 and even then it´s not clear if we success in making it work. Still we should make a team to work on it. Maybe someone should open a thread to search for volunteers in the community forum.

I guess i´ll vote for Option 2 after all, if we change some stuff we can make this work out like in the past. Just no more rankeds, seriously, though alot were good, we also had alot of trouble and in-fighting and i don´t want that to return where i barely have any chance to input something for the EA. I like that we can not only vote LA make advises for it but also for EA. I wanna keep that, not just to a few selected.
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Re: Option 2: Downgrade to a simpler game.

Postby Rilla Treespirit on Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:23 pm

I'm leaning towards option 1 simply because I have no idea how the other one works and 3 is out of the question as far as I'm concerned, I didn't just join up to see it end before I could really play a part and do anything.

Of course I don't want to exclude option 2 just because I don't know what it means and I'm pretty lost when people talk about the ranked system: All I can figure out from this is that: pay more=get more power which seems fair enough... In the ranked system that was by their job right? But if it's by family now then how do classes work? Would a Noble be a family leader or something? *sigh* I'm just really confused here.

It's so frustrating I'd almost just not vote at all but I hate doing that even for small decisions. I'd rather regret making a bad choice than not making one at all.
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Re: Option 2: Downgrade to a simpler game.

Postby Catriana on Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:58 am

Rilla Treespirit wrote:I'm leaning towards option 1 simply because I have no idea how the other one works and 3 is out of the question as far as I'm concerned, I didn't just join up to see it end before I could really play a part and do anything.

Of course I don't want to exclude option 2 just because I don't know what it means and I'm pretty lost when people talk about the ranked system: All I can figure out from this is that: pay more=get more power which seems fair enough... In the ranked system that was by their job right? But if it's by family now then how do classes work? Would a Noble be a family leader or something? *sigh* I'm just really confused here.

It's so frustrating I'd almost just not vote at all but I hate doing that even for small decisions. I'd rather regret making a bad choice than not making one at all.


Ranked System:
- Limited to only how many classes there were
- Were the only individuals who could input EA ideas
- All class work depended on their submitted actions
- Absolutely no real moderation (this is important, and it's THE thing people dismiss when complaining about the ranked)

Noble System:
- Unlimited. If you pay, you have access.
- Only individuals who will be able to input EA ideas/projects.
- Not entirely clear, but seems to be co-dependent on families.
- To prevent old grudges, Anj'hali will be moderating our actions.


At the moment, it seems the options were purposefully not put into specific details and I can understand why they'd do this. There's no point in going into details for a situation that may or may not happen. What they want first is to see where the clan wants to stand, and I am assuming things will go from there. So for now, it'd probably be best to vote for what we'd LIKE to see, and hash out the details once everything is decided.
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Re: Option 2: Downgrade to a simpler game.

Postby Kitab Al'Ibar on Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:59 am

Truly, I will admit I have I have no place in these conversations. Back in PtP 1, I was one of the 'Ranked', the Scoutmaster, for about a year. Few know better than me how the ranked system worked and how it was abused, but the first series had a deep seated tiering system of power and the Ranked were routinely chastised, inside the updates and in private. I wont go into detail and I wont make excuses, but at no point in my experience was it ever a free ride being a Ranked.

For the scouts I always tried to make the best decisions to preserve us as a group and improve out abilities to help the clan, this didn't always work out, but I like to think I did a good job. In the LA, perhaps not so much, but I almost never input an action, hell, weeks passed where I didn't vote on options I always felt it was not my place to try to force the clan as a whole in places it didn't want to go. Sadly, it is a difficult stance to maintain and several were the instances where Ranked crossed the line.

The strength and the fallacy of the Ranked system depended on who became the Ranked. The right group of people could have excelled, people who had the capacity to lead, but were also willing to lend support, teamwork and true strategy to the game. Unfortunately, it was rare for the right people to be agreed on any course of action and frequently, when they were, that course of action would not result in the desired result.

I would be deeply reluctant to see a tiered system return to the game, I fear the return to rampant politicking and smear campaigns, in my humble opinion it is asking for a return to a split, aggressive and political influence grabbing community. However, I fully admit that I have not returned to, nor monitored the game since I left before the start of PtP 2. I do not know how it has evolved and changed. Many of my comments may be seen as irrelevant or naive, but I speak as one who saw this community at its best and at its worst. I am only speaking up because my attention has been drawn to it.

PtP has always been an idea I cherished, even if I disagreed at times with the execution. It has always been a challenging for both Kern, Thalar and others and the community. It has never been an easy project and I am astounded it has endured so long, but I am hopeful for it, as I always have been.

All I can say is choose wisely and make a decision you wont regret.

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-------------------------

Edit: The last thing I want to do is derail this thread, so if anyone still has negative feelings towards me for events long past, then please keep it out of this thread and pm me. It is not my intention to linger here for long. I sincerely hope the past can remain the past, but if anybody does want to reopen old wounds...

Alternatively, if anyone has questions, then as ever, I endeavour to make myself available. Although I doubt I can be much help as I have not held a subscription to this game since PtP 2 began. ^^;
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