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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby Pariel on Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:21 am

Catriana wrote:
Jonarus_Drakus wrote:The LA has already clearly indicated that she is heading in that direction regardless. With that in mine, Dycle's action is entirely appropriate, It will warn her of the danger, AND provide her with extra protection in the event that she continues forward anyway. HOPEFULLY, the 'Recon' action might get referenced at that point as well, giving us a little bit of info ahead of the EA...

JD



Actually, no, it's not.

I'll elaborate on this more when I actually have time. Let's just say, it's a bad move, and folks need to quit making knee-jerk reactions to everything.

Okay, now I have time.

Look, we do not need to be forcing Anj'hali into potential hostile situations before anything has even been established. I agree a runner needs to be sent to Anj'hali, to INFORM her of the situation. It should be up to her what she wishes to do about it. Because really, once she gets there, then what? They have no ambassadors, we have no idea what numbers they're packing, where they're really located, what they could have in store for us, nothing. Furthermore, you do NOT invite your queen to enemy camp without knowing the stakes. If at all possible, you want potential enemies to come to YOU, NOT the other way around. You always want control of a situation, you cannot have control of a situation when your leader is out of their element and out of their stronghold.

Stop making knee-jerk advices. PtP2 will NOT end if you hurry up and wait sometimes.

I strongly recommend a counter to Dycle's advice recommending sending a runner to Anj'hali to appraise her of the situation ONLY. If she wishes to directly intervene, she should be allowed to do so with a better compliment of guards and on her terms. Personally, I would prefer it if these folks came to our stronghold, where if things go sour, they cannot openly attack our Illhar without facing serious repercussions.


Siiigh...

You know, by the time I had told min the best idea was to set up a neutral ground (happens even to the more thoughtful ones), she already sent the advice. Oh well, at least it's mostly salvageable. At worst we'll make anjhi lose time for a week.
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby Catriana on Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:34 am

*hugs* It's all good. We'll just have to see how things turn out next week.
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby James Rye on Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:15 pm

Well, it turned out quite okay.

So before anyone post something too fast (*looks at advice box* FU! Already happend! >.<), please lets wait for a bit and discuss our next steps with how to deal with the coming negotiation.

I think we should cover three parts:

- How Anji should behave with the dvergars/her attitude towards them
- How to treat the Nals advises/ask for the dvergars to be associats with the Nal
- The terms we wanna achieve in this negotiation.

Also Brorn, Dycle and Xen should be the main ones to post those particular advises. Though i guess since Thalar is taking notice of the voters names as well, some of us might take over that matter too if they´re not avaiable in time.

Any thoughts/ideas/suggestions?
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby Hetros on Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:36 pm

My vote has been cast for lifting the ban on melting stuff down in respect to ada coins so we can actually use them to make our gem cutting tools. But my thoughts are this.

(in order of priority)
1)We want a peace treaty and a cease fire. Seriously, most important. We don't cause avalanches on them, they don't shoot at us with canons. We combine this with an offer of reparations owed to any damage we caused to their settlement or group. This will go a LOOOONG way towards repairing relations. "Hey guys, we hurt you, so we understand why you shot at us. But none of ours were seriously injured so we are willing to let that go considering the circumstances. Now, did OUR avalanche do anything to YOU guys? yes, it was our Avalanche, we thought there were dangerous wild beasts down here, we didn't know what we were hearing were you guys, we apologize, and we are willing to provide medical, architectural, and military support to get you back on your feet from any damage we caused you."

2)We should promise not to build anything within the territory they control (that part of the canyon) beyond a road for MUTUAL usage, and a trading outpost/embassy that we can jointly run. This extends both ways. They don't expand into OUR controlled territory without EXPRESS permission. And hey, we might be willing to let them if it's mutually beneficial to allow them to do so (Are we going to say NO to dwarf built fortifications if they offer to make them?)

3)Further, if they have access to workable metals, we should express a willingness to set up trade with them. Likely food stuffs would be the favored thing for this. Above all -we do not ask them for their blackpowder-! Not until we are BFFs with them! Seriously, this is their BIG DEAL against the drow, asking them for it right off the bat would be so insanely a bad idea that it might wreck our relationship right off the bat.

4) If we get this far, then we might want to set up more permanent alliances. Military support on both sides. We help defend them against slavers, raiders, and similar threats, and they do the same for us. If slavers take some of their number, we assist their military in a rescue mission, just as we would try to rescue some of our own, and we'd expect them to do the same for us. Seriously. They have -cannons-. Can you imagine what that would do to those over grown parakeets hindering our expansion to the east?

5) If they are willing to give us the same access to their settlement (assuming they have one) we give them the full run of ours. If they wish to ESTABLISH a settlement, we offer to help them do so in return for them paying off the debt owed by quarrying rock, and mining metal for us at reasonably reduces prices than they might otherwise charge us for them.


This last idea is a LONG LONG LONG SHOT and one I would not suggest unless they A) show a very strange enthusiasm with this sudden overture of friendship, or B) we work with them for an incredibly long amount of time and we both learn to trust one another quite a bit
If they are willing, to incorporate them -fully- into our clan as CITIZENS. That is to say, they would not be slaves. They would be full clan members, they could assist with jobs, join the military, access our resources freely, and have a say in our choices and actions. This is a huge long shot not the LEAST because if we did this, it is likely that Thalar would be required to open up Dwarves as a playable race, which is a tin of worms we probably don't want to go into. Also the fact we would automatically get the ability to make blackpowder from this likely.

These are my opinions on the order of priorities we should establish by treaty with them. First a Ceasefire, then establishing boundaries, then organizing trade agreements, the more permanent treaties, then seeing about integrating our communities for mutual benefit.
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby James Rye on Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:25 pm

Hetros wrote:This last idea is a LONG LONG LONG SHOT and one I would not suggest unless they A) show a very strange enthusiasm with this sudden overture of friendship, or B) we work with them for an incredibly long amount of time and we both learn to trust one another quite a bit
If they are willing, to incorporate them -fully- into our clan as CITIZENS. That is to say, they would not be slaves. They would be full clan members, they could assist with jobs, join the military, access our resources freely, and have a say in our choices and actions. This is a huge long shot not the LEAST because if we did this, it is likely that Thalar would be required to open up Dwarves as a playable race, which is a tin of worms we probably don't want to go into. Also the fact we would automatically get the ability to make blackpowder from this likely.

These are my opinions on the order of priorities we should establish by treaty with them. First a Ceasefire, then establishing boundaries, then organizing trade agreements, the more permanent treaties, then seeing about integrating our communities for mutual benefit.


Oh i like that one. I had a similar idea, though mostly we could control them easier at our home instead of them being away in their own castle.^g^
It would be kinda like the Nals did/do stuff with goblin races, though we do that with dvergar. And we all know dvergars are 10 times cooler than Kotorcs. :P
Though i agree it´s something that can be done only in the future, not only to win the trust of the dvergars but also to overcome the mistrust and caution of our own people. It will be one hell of a project to get to that. But right now as you already said, that´s not our concern.^^

My ideas for advices goes like this:

- Invite the dvergars to the neutral meeting ground to meet Anji. or Invite the dvergars to the neutral ground to meet Anji. Be persistent! (ask Thalar if they laready accepted to come or not, i don´t think so but who knows?)
- *Those dvergars are cautious; stay strong/firm, but not unfriendly/cruel.* (yeah, we might word that otherwise.^^; Mostly there to give Anji some kind of attitude she has to givethe dvergars to show who´s boss without pissing them off.)
- Ask if our Avalanche did any damage/injury, offer repair/healing if needed. (kinda like a first step forward if they come, acknowledge who started with the avalanche first and give em candy with that simple offer we can afford to get some heart points. Better to start like this and then get to the terms then just throw our demands in their faces.)
- They live near our mine, offer ceasefire and food for free access and help. ( we could either rip it in two advises to have 150 instead of 75 letters to word it better or word it differently to fit 75, right now it´s exactly 75 letters.)
- *Take the Nal´s advises to your heart, they´ll benefit the negotiation.* (if that guy knows some stuff about how to speak with dvergars or even know them as associats to his clan, this will ensure that he´s been heard and not ignored. That could happen if we put too many advises with him not playing a rule in.)

Well, those 5 advises are my basic ideas, their wording can still change ofc.
I´ll wait for Brorn to show up and put his ideas in the thread. Hopefully he gets on soon before everyone is again to hasty and forces him to act so soon again like this time.^^
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby laserkid on Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Hostile or neutral we should go to war because we will provoke by proximity anyways. Allies of the Nal...trade with them with intent to absorb them into the city.
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby Catriana on Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:05 am

I really don't think we should make any long term plans before we even know the situation. They might be associated with the Nals, but they might not. And just because they're associated with the Nals doesn't mean they'll be willing to compromise.

We have a Nal with us who will be helping to make the process smoother, but until we actually know what it is they want, it's too early to make plans or speculate. Anj'hali has made her decision, so let's wait and see how they play with the ball in their court.

I know I keep stressing "Wait and see" but patience is part of any good strategy. It is difficult to come up with a plan when you have no real information, just conjecture and what you hope will happen. Let's wait another turn or so to see what these guys are up to. If a peace negotiation is possible, then we discuss it, otherwise, it becomes a moot point.
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby Hetros on Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:58 am

laserkid wrote:Hostile or neutral we should go to war because we will provoke by proximity anyways. Allies of the Nal...trade with them with intent to absorb them into the city.

Hell no. That's all I have to say on the matter.

Catriana wrote:I really don't think we should make any long term plans before we even know the situation. They might be associated with the Nals, but they might not. And just because they're associated with the Nals doesn't mean they'll be willing to compromise.

We have a Nal with us who will be helping to make the process smoother, but until we actually know what it is they want, it's too early to make plans or speculate. Anj'hali has made her decision, so let's wait and see how they play with the ball in their court.

I know I keep stressing "Wait and see" but patience is part of any good strategy. It is difficult to come up with a plan when you have no real information, just conjecture and what you hope will happen. Let's wait another turn or so to see what these guys are up to. If a peace negotiation is possible, then we discuss it, otherwise, it becomes a moot point.

I like this one best, but the idea is that we're should assume the best and prepare for the worst. Assume that they're willing to be nice and work on that assumption, but have contingencies in case it goes wrong, which is the entire point of the heavy escort.
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby AthenAltena on Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:25 am

Hetros wrote:I like this one best, but the idea is that we're should assume the best and prepare for the worst. Assume that they're willing to be nice and work on that assumption, but have contingencies in case it goes wrong, which is the entire point of the heavy escort.


I pretty much agree with that, assume the best and prepare for the worst.
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby James Rye on Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:28 am

Oh man, two advises already regarding the dvergars and none of them has tried to talk about it beforehead with anyone else. :(
At least Dycle and Brorn hasn´t posted yet so the main votes will gather around them once they announce their advises. :)

Should we ask Thalar if the dvergars will already be there at the meeting ground or do we have to spend an advise to make sure they´ll come to talk to our Illhar?
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby minalia on Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:36 am

Brorn is on a business trip. He may not be available to do anything for the week end. Dycle just make sure to inform the dwarfs to send a diplomat to negotiate the terms of a truce..and protect anjhali.
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby James Rye on Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:05 pm

minalia wrote:Brorn is on a business trip. He may not be available to do anything for the week end. Dycle just make sure to inform the dwarfs to send a diplomat to negotiate the terms of a truce..and protect anjhali.


Like this?

Send envoy to invite dvergar to meet Illhar. She´ll be protected by guards.

Is exactly 75 letters and has the invitation in it as well as the protection of An'Jhali. If Dycle/Laserkid want he can use this advise so that we can focus our votes easier. :3
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby Hetros on Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:22 pm

James Rye wrote:
minalia wrote:Brorn is on a business trip. He may not be available to do anything for the week end. Dycle just make sure to inform the dwarfs to send a diplomat to negotiate the terms of a truce..and protect anjhali.


Like this?

Send envoy to invite dvergar to meet Illhar. She´ll be protected by guards.

Is exactly 75 letters and has the invitation in it as well as the protection of An'Jhali. If Dycle/Laserkid want he can use this advise so that we can focus our votes easier. :3

go for it
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby Pariel on Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:26 pm

Fret not. I hath returned. I'll oversee some of this once I get a decent nap.
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby James Rye on Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:55 pm

@Hetros

As much as i want i think either Dycle or Brorn should post that advice, it would make it easier to focus the votes since the people know those guys were there from the beginning.^^

YAY! Brorn´s back! Now we gonna rock the house! Where´s the booze and the naked girls!? 8D
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