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Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby Hetros on Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:39 pm

EDIT! (this is facts so we know where we're starting from)
1) Contrary to popular belief at the moment. We have not had a mine at e18 ever. Our mine is on e17, that is where we've been harvesting stone from, not else where.
2) Though there are only two dwarves, each has a cannon, and they only shot ONCE. Who wants to bet on the other one not being loaded
2correllary) There are probably more than two dwarves hiding in the snow if things get ugly. We will not win this if there are more than 2 dwarves with more than 1 loaded cannon waiting to ambush us if we make this turn ugly.
End of Edits


okay, from what I gathered we've had nothing in that place for a pretty damn long time. We just intruded, and let's face it, dwarves have NEVER had good experiences with Drow. Their reaction is perfectly reasonable, ESPECIALLY if they're made from escaped slaves and the like.

My suggestion is that we actually go for the PEACEFUL option this time around due to a COMPLETE lack of information, not to mention a desperate need for metal and the like that we will not be getting easy access to until we can build a mining outpost further out.

If we can get them to believe we HONESTLY mean no harm, that we're open to forming PEACEFUL relations with them, and that they can BENEFIT from such relations, we are far more likely to come out ahead.

Let's face it, if we make trade agreements we can get them to do the mining FOR us. We give them wood, animal meat from the surface, surplus crops, and the like, and they give us metal, gems, stone, and similar. It'll make all of our lives MUCH easier when they are SO close and in a place where THEY HAVE THE ADVANTAGE.

If we've stumbled across a major dwarven settlement, I -doubt- we can oust them, and we are more likely to lack the resources in war effort that we'll need to deal with the Furres and the Kotorcs who may be ACTIVELY hostile. These Dwarves just want us to leave them alone from the looks of it. There aren't any reported deaths or even injuries after all. If they were going to raid us, they'd have done so and not given their position away. We have no idea if the Furres or Kotorcs are going to be -anywhere- near as nice to us. They might -actively- attack us. Raid our settlement. The Dwarves could well be an ally we -need- out here!

Further, look at it this way. THEY ARE IN A SNOWED IN CANYON! THEY LIKELY ARE GOING TO HAVE AN ENTRENCHED POSITION WITH UNDERWORLD ACCESS SO THEY CANNOT BE SEIGED OUT! THEY MIGHT EVEN BE ABLE TO GET REINFORCEMENTS FROM OTHER DWARVEN SETTLEMENTS! We do not know enough to simply rush in and attack, which is why I vote for the peaceful resolution combined with -trade options-. If they CONTINUE to be hostile, then we can default to the hostile actions and attack, but let's try the PEACEFUL method first and thus give THAT a chance. If we just attack they'll never trust us, and thus any chance what so ever of a peaceful option will be gone. Thus, let's keep the military option in reserve until we have proven that they won't negotiate AT ALL.
Last edited by Hetros on Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby Jonarus_Drakus on Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:54 pm

I don't think playing it 'soft' will work for us. We need to make the point to them that if they want peace with us, it on them to make it happen. In the mean time, we scout them, gather as much info as we can, determine their numbers (both total and warriors), try to figure out their intent (this is where diplomacy might help), and generally stay alert...

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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby Pariel on Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:57 pm

Your suggestion would make us look weak and paint us a target in the back. We can't be sure if they're trustworthy, or honorable, or whatever. That's the big mistake of you people with your peaceful and nice approaches. In DT world, you never know who will turn up to be an utter bastard or a nice person. In the past we've screwed UP BIG TIME with choosing our diplomacy based on "we're the good guys". Let's be pragmatic here. If they're threatening us, they're either too weak or too hesitant to fight for that reason.

So, let's call on their bluff with ours. Give them a warning for a warning, as they gave us avalanche for avalanche. A warning that should they FUCK AROUND WITH US, next time it'll be more than an avalanche... and at the same time that we're still open for deals as there was no major damage other than frozen miners.

We're right now in a "cold war" state. The biggest mistake is to appear weak now.
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby Nacht on Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:16 pm

We need to claim this spot for mining, we are in dire need of resources. A show of strength is needed.

I vote someone from the expedition (Brorn? Xenon?) should make a stand and loudly claim that they WILL stay in this place to mine the stone we need - and if you attack us again we WILL destroy your village, kill your wives, enslave your children, etc.

We have 18 drow officially on site (3 teams of six) including two warrior teams. I think they would be able to take care of a small dwarf camp if things get ugly. We WON'T leave and they need to accept that.
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby Pariel on Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:19 pm

They don't know that and they shouldn't know that natch. We gotta be rather ambigous as there. With us or against us we can do both options. Forcing a foe to fight will only strengthen their resolve. Give them both options, to come and "talk" or to "be crushed" and that'll sow division among their ranks. Just like it's sowing division among ours how to deal with them .
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby Vongemmingen on Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:48 pm

I'm inclined to be cautious. We have no idea how many in number they are, or how well equipped they are. Going to war when we have no access to metal might be overreaching a bit, especially since the dwarves seem to be in position to cut off our only access to stone as well.
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby Hetros on Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:09 pm

Exactly.

I say peaceful first. They know next to nothing about us EITHER and they're EXPECTING us to turn on them like EVERY OTHER DROW THEY HAVE EVER MET WOULD!

I think we could -use- the good publicity that we are here as a potentially benign force, not an imperialistic conquest force -.-

This is GOOD publicity, and has FAR less likelihood of them say, COLLAPSING THE ALREADY EXISTING TUNNEL SYSTEM BEHIND THEM AS THEY FLEE. Or even WORSE, this is supported by a MAJOR dwarvish stronghold FAR deeper that hasn't been able to be conquered by the Drow. You know, the ones that exist in poison filled caverns we can't access but they can? Ever thought that they might be from one of those? Can we survive a major counter attack from such a location? Hell, we have no metal, worst case scenario is that they apparently abandon the mine under our threat and then fill it with explosives and set them off when we explore the mine! Then they launch a counter attack.

We can HANDLE defending our town from raiders. We can DEAL with that. It is NOT garunteed that we would even sustain casualties if we open a discourse with them FIRST.

What -IS- garunteed is that we -WILL- sustain casualties in some form or another if we attack first. They control the area, they probably know the land better than us, they have the ability to bring down avalanches on our invading force where as we probably do not have such a capacity, what with the lack of heavy magic and/or siege weaponry.

EG: at the moment this is how it stands.

Peaceful Route:
unknown Potential for Trade Agreements + Alliance with an established military force in the region
unknown Potential for backstabbing and casualties
(50% chance of this going bad)

Military Route:
certainty of sustaining casualties
unknown (probably low) potential of actually capturing the area.
unknown sustainability due to lack of metal resources and military.
(50-90% chance of this going badly)

Fuck worrying about looking weak. Better to -look- weak and take a chance on becoming stronger with this, then finding out that they are DEFINITELY stronger than we can handle right now and ending up WEAKER because WE TOOK ON SOMETHING WE COULD NOT FIGHT.

They are -far- too close to our colony at the moment for us to handle fighting. Not when we lack siege weaponry, already have griffin problems, the goblins and furres are still major unknowns, and WE HAVE NO ABILITY TO MAKE NEW WEAPONS AND ARMOR OR EVEN REPAIR WHAT WE ALREADY HAVE.
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby Jonarus_Drakus on Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:15 pm

Oh don't get me wrong Het, I'm all for working out some kind of treaty with them... I just saying we need to present a strong face, make it clear to them if they won't peace they are the ones that'll have to say so... The most 'hostile' thing I'm planning on doing at this stage is some careful recon of their camp/forces. The more information we have, the more informed a decision we will be able to make in how we deal with them.

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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby blackshade10 on Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:22 pm

How about neither?

We continue to build up our presence in E-18, not attack nor even talk to them. If they choose to attack us, we respond back with deadly force.

Right now we have armor. We can't make swords, but we can make spears and bows, which is enough to fight.
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby James Rye on Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:48 pm

I agree with Hetros that we should try to do a diplomatic way first, but i also agree with Jon and Pariel that we cannot just accept their warning like that.

But i disagree with what Nacht suggested, sorry, but those are dwarves, a race which lost alot cause of the drows. Provacating them with their death or the death of their families won´t let them waver, it will only harden their resolve to kill us.

We got two active posters there or three, four with me.
So we should use that to coordinat our plan to counter their warning without provocating a war nor been seen as weak. Plus we need to go home to inform Anji. We can let Xenon do so, she wanted to go home anyway.^^

However, those are DT dwarves, dwarves who hit hard and then run if they fight drows. And like Hetros said we know nothing about them, their name, their numbers, their fighting power, their walls, their equipment, nothing.
If we leave like that, even after a warning from us, the risk that they just leave under the ground, waiting for us to pass to the mine again to raid us is there. And it would become a problem since this is our only stone mine and near mountains with possible iron ore and gold.

So what i propose might be dangerous but that was the same for Brorn and just liek Brorn i think we can get this done with some kind of *safety*.

First off:
1.) Someone needs to leave to Ama'varde to tell Anji of this.
2.) We must tell them that we can´t just leave like that. This is/was our mine for ten years and we need it. That alone will let em realize that we will come back even without giving them any kind of warning like *we´ll kill you and your families if you won´t talk to us!*
3.) We´ll tell them we´ll leave (though we´ll stay near the canyon ofc to scout and such)
4.) This is my own idea:
We actually don´t try to start a cold or even a hot war and go straight to the diplomatic discussion!
Now none of us has the right to do so, only Anji has. But we cant let Anji come into possible enemy territory to talk with the duegars. Too risky.
So how do we get it done the other way aka the dwarves comign with us to Ama'varde to talk to Anji like the Sarveltos did back then when they found us at their mine?
Unlike the sarvs the dwarves won't come on their own, they don´t want the mine like we did back then, they just took it. After all we´re just glow eyes who kill their folks and destory their underground homes.

So what else can we offer them to make them *trust* us enough to send a ambassador with us home?
I say, we do what the nobles did in japan, europe, russia, etc. to the times where traits where only mistrusted and hate and back-stabbery was everywhere: A hostage as pawn.

They agree to send one of them with us to talk to Anji over this matter.
We will let one of us stay as *guest* as a pawn that their guy will return alive.
They are only few, i guess that cause first they only did a warn shot, a perfect one in a mist we can hardly see anything mind you. If they had enough manpower, they just had wiped us out like that when we came down like walking targets. Also we only see two of them, that has nothing to say, but if they had a large army, they would have shown as many as possible to impress the enemy and discourage him to attack in the future, like we did with the sarvs first arrival at the mine.
So i´m saying they´re bluffing and that they know we could kill them all in time if we return. So they buying time to either a) improve their defense b) get more help from other duegar settlements underground or c) run away.
None of those 3 options will help us in the future so we have to prevent them from happening in the first place.

And that´s why talking soon is important, not going into a month long cold war with scouting, training and moving troops with the risk of getting peopel catpured or injured. We don´t even have enough gas masks for all warriors against their smoke weapons, if i count right.
But to make them agree to talk with our leader, we have to make that acceptable for them, after all they risk everything and we basically nothing. Even though we know as good as nothing about them, we have the advantage cause they also know nothing about us.
Think of it, what must 2 duegar warriors think when they see a dozen++ strong group of drows with warriors, scouts and miners just to go to a mine which was obviously used before? They must think *damnit, they´ve got alot of people and it seems this mine wasnt abadonned after all, they might want it back.*
They are in a bad positon, we know where their home is, that they got their wives and children there, but they don´t know where we are, how many we are and how good we´re armed. They have to guess from what they see and the reaction they showed today proves that they assume the worst. Else they had killed us all.
But then a much much bigger party would have come, also as i said, i guess they don´t have the fire power to kill around 15 drows to prevent any to escape.

Back to the hostage plan.
The plan to make one duegar come with us (blind-folded ofc, we can include that next week though not this one, too much, too risky) is to let one of us stay as pawn. If their duegar doesn´t return in time, they can kill the hostage.
If the duegar comes they can exchange the drow *guest* to welcome their comrad who will tell them what he saw (a huge city, hundreds of drows, so many many warriors, an illharess with a snow/stone dragon, etc.) and what he discussed with our Illharess.
Same goes for the hostage, he can try to find out as much as possible while staying alive, when he´s a *guest* at the duegars home. And i´m sure the odds would be in our favor (no big defense, only small stone houses, not many duegars, also not seen many warriors).
Ofc there´s the risk to get killed.^^;

Which is why i volunteer for this possible job if enough people agree that a possible long cold war or a short but costly hot war are not acceptable for this situation. We need results and we need them fast. And best way to do so, is preventing them from running away -> having one of them as their ambassador; being sure to know their defense and strength -> having one of us there as *guest*, impress possible enemy with our strength to get better position in negotiation -> Duegar ambassador sees home, strength of our army and our Illharess.

I know this is very risky, for my chara that is, but if the duegar accept that idea and i think they will likely accept cause
a) they want to know what they´re up against
b) they must be also curious about such a huge group of drow on the surface, we are the first drow colony on the surface since hundreds of years after all
c) they might have the feeling that in a war they cannot win and thus negotions might be better this time <- dunno though, but their actions so far seems very careful and non-provocative, usualy done by groups far weaker or who believes they are weaker than the opposing one. Psychology. :P

Also:
d) They can kinda trust us to return their brother/comrad/man home after some days of negotions. After all they have a pawn they can do whatever they want with. They can torture him if their ambassador doesn't return to let him spill the secrets, kill him cruely or sell him as slave in the underground etc.
That will give them a feeling of safety and having kinda control over the situation. And given that they are so less, they won´t simply abadonned their man to the drows. They will wait for the results first.

So, if any of you is still with me after reading that much (lol XD ), then here are my ideas how the action may sound like. Keep in mind they can always change in wording and meaning ofc. 1 is most important and should get 4-6 votes first while 4 is least important and should only get 4-6 votes if the rest have so. :)

1. *Go back to Ama'varde as fast as possible. Report duegar encounter to Anji.* - 74 letters without the **, Anji will hear about this whatever the consequences will be at E-19. That´s a duty we have to do, inform our Illharess and our people is a top priority. Though we all knew that.^^
2. *"Sorry, we can´t just go like that. Its our mine and we need the stone."* - 72 letters without the **, it states the fact, it gives off an indirect warning (We need this, it´s ours -> we will return and get it back) but it doesn´t have any kind of provocation or mean words or direct warning. It will makes them unsure, we didn´t just run away like cowards, but we also didn´t made a direct thread to end their lives or the ones of their family if they don´t leave. They can guess we want the mine, its used after all, they saw the miners house. Just like we could guessed that back then in Chel. They simply didn´t knew the old owners. It the hidden whip in this talk.
3. *"Look, if one of you comes with us to talk to our leader, we all leave."* - 72 letters without the **, its the offer to break the current stalemate without violence and bloodshed, which must be a concern of the duegars or else they had attacked directly. Right now they´re worried that there more of us waiting, worried for thei women and children and their elders, worried that their new home might become their grave and end. But still this offer alone is ofc not enough to make them simply accept that.
4. *"I´ll stay as a warrant that he´ll return. If he doesn´t, you can kill me."* - 75 letters without the **, that would be me. :/ With that obvious candy they will most likely accept the offer we made in 3. after hearing our indirect warning of 2. The carrot-and-stick policy will always work against a weaker opponent if he believes his aka we are much stronger or more dangerous to him and his folk than he is to us. They know its a dangerous bet, but they have a warrant, a hostage as safety to let their man return home. And that way they´ll get all the information they want to know about us and are in dire need right now to decide how dangerous the situation actually is. Just like we came with our warriors to the svars, an accepted safety to make us feel safer and to give it an more equal negotion ground when our Illhar meet theirs.

We´ve got 22 voters there given last week. 15 have voted this time, so three advises will get through for sure, but all 4 can go through as well.
However that means alot of coordinating as well as control of *wild voters* who doesnt read the forum/this thread.
It´s a kinda crazy and risky plan but with less loss and great gain!
In the worst case they don´t accpet and we have to leave like that with nothing in our hands.
In the second worst case, they kill the hostage after agreeing to the plan.
Third worst, they attack us with no further words. Though then that will make everything easier for us and its the most unlikely scenario.
Best case, they accept, the duegar ambassador and Anji get to an agreement, i get outta there alive and everyone´s happy. :D
Second best case, they accept, the duegar ambassador and Anji don´t get to an agreement, but i still get outta there alive for the return of the duegar
Third best case would be the second worst case, BUT in that case we have an hostage on our own we can torture and get infos of his clan. One drow for oen duegar. :)

Now what would us get a *cold* war and a hot one as already discussed here?
Cold:
-long, while we scout out each other searching for a weakness
-possible no deaths, but can happen, same to captures and becomign prisoner of the duegars
-we gain NOTHING in that time, no stone from the mine for us
-duegars have lots of time to use OUR stone to build up their defense, and duegars are good builders, tmost of heir cities are right now still used for us drows to live in. That´s quality work.
-it can get turned intoa hot war everytime

Hot:
-short, probably though that´s unsure, depends on unknown enemy strength and their defense as well as how we handle the attack (and given the BS, we aren´t the best warmongers. <_<)
-many injured for sure, much higher chance of deaths. :(
-even if we win the war, the duegars can escape underground and come back everytime to raid us or to be an eyesore. Not good for our future miners and warriors. We will always need some people there to guard the place though we might need them somewhere else (Kotorcs, ferals, flying horror, crazy golems, etc.)

A talk RIGHT NOW or AS FATS AS POSSIBLE, has the advantage of being short with either a defintiv positive or a definitiv negativ result with only one death. We risk as good as NOTHING, but can GAIN alot, if the negotions are done rightly and that´s up to worry about IF they accept the offer.
So wanna take the risk, my sole risk, and see if my guesses are right and they´ll accpet a talk to Anji under those conditions? (oh please say yes, i thought and wrote so long about this~ D:)

Thanks alot for reading till this point. :3
Please consider this as a real argument and idea and not as a not worth to think about plan. :(
Some thought the same about Brorn going for stones and thanks to him and his risk we found the duegars now without proper defense and power, in warm spring or hot summer this might have looked differently. :D
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby Zorlond on Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:39 am

Pariel wrote:That's the big mistake of you people with your peaceful and nice approaches.


And the problem with you people and your hard, violent approaches is that you apparently cannot realize that you cause the situation you claim to want to avoid.

Attack them now, or perform obviously hostile scouting actions to determine their locations and weak points, and all you do is convince the dwarves that no drow, not a single damn one, should be left alive. Shot on sight with no warning or provocation. It's not a case of the dwarves being evil or good, but merely deciding that it is a matter of survival that we die.

Think it through, from their perspective. You see a bunch of guys from a country you've had plenty of bad dealings with in the past. You fire a warning shot, intentionally or otherwise setting off an avalanche. When the guys pick themselves up, you shout over to them that that was a warning shot, and they should leave. How would you respond if suddenly they showed up with armed forces and setting off an avalanche of their own? Yep, you'd decide it's yet another dumb war and start shooting to kill, then charge down into their settlement and settling the whole matter once and for all. Thanks for wanting to paint a bullseye on all our foreheads.
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby James Rye on Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:53 am

^Which is why my idea is a compromise of Het´s talk but Jon/Pariel´s no showing weakness policy.

We won´t or better can´t do the goody *we´re the good guys*-diplomacy in hopes they can read minds and will realize we don´t want to harm/attack them. They´re highly mistrusting to our kind after all and for good reasons.
We tried similar stuff in PtP and we got screwed, like the Nals got the sector we wanted and thus damaged our bond with the svars.

But as you said we can´t do any hostile or provocating stuff either cause then w get into the situation we want to avoid. And this fight has way too many varaiables. It would end like with the destruction of the vei guild or the battle against the BS, with a costly win or a horrible loss.
Why did we won against the slavers or the Dvartisomething clan? Cause we planned, long so, and cause we knew alot of them, cause we decided the time AND the battleflied and how to attack etc. Right now we can´t decide the battleflied and we won´t get around to attack them frontal sooner or later while they can build up their defense while we try to gather information/intelligenz about them.

My approch is more practical and proven through history. That doesn`t mean it will success though.
And the drow clans nowadays are doing such stuff as well.
We offer them negotions right now with our leader at our home (we decide time, place etc.) in exchange for an hostage (they have a warrant and reason to believe us, expect we´re really heartless bastards like they might think we are) during the negotion time.
It´s pragmatic, it´s still diplomatic and *nice* given the cirumstances but also strong cause we jsut don´t leave like that, we turn their warning into a possible offer for negotions. If they accept or not is up to them, the ball is in their field to say so. Right now it´s in ours, stay and talk or just nod and leave? If we leave we WILL appear weak and that might send the wrong signals, if we stay we might appear as annoying and dangerous but it also gives us the chance to return the ball and get them to accept our offer.

I do believe that my plan will work out and if not hey, then only one drow died and he volunteered for that on his own, so no one can complain. :)
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby Hetros on Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:15 am

Zorlond wrote:
Pariel wrote:That's the big mistake of you people with your peaceful and nice approaches.


And the problem with you people and your hard, violent approaches is that you apparently cannot realize that you cause the situation you claim to want to avoid.

Attack them now, or perform obviously hostile scouting actions to determine their locations and weak points, and all you do is convince the dwarves that no drow, not a single damn one, should be left alive. Shot on sight with no warning or provocation. It's not a case of the dwarves being evil or good, but merely deciding that it is a matter of survival that we die.

Think it through, from their perspective. You see a bunch of guys from a country you've had plenty of bad dealings with in the past. You fire a warning shot, intentionally or otherwise setting off an avalanche. When the guys pick themselves up, you shout over to them that that was a warning shot, and they should leave. How would you respond if suddenly they showed up with armed forces and setting off an avalanche of their own? Yep, you'd decide it's yet another dumb war and start shooting to kill, then charge down into their settlement and settling the whole matter once and for all. Thanks for wanting to paint a bullseye on all our foreheads.


THANK YOU! Someone here is speaking sense.

And I agree with the hostage exchange for negotiations. They send someone to negotiate at our place, and we leave a hostage with them to prove that we're willing to play ball with them. This achieves two purposes.

1) We show we're willing to bring one of them into our settlement and bring them out again alive. This is a major trust thing since on apperance, it's like saying "we don't care if you see the interior of our settlement, we're strong enough to stand that." we can hide things like our actual troop numbers and prepairedness while putting on the DISPLAY that we're open.
2) Our hostage, assuming he's not blindfolded the whole way, is basically a spy who can give us information as well.
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby Catriana on Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:25 am

There is a difference between going "Um, no you are NOT going to boss us around." and "OMGWTFBBQATTACK!"

We owe these newcomers nothing, and they have approached us with hostility. If they want peaceful negotiations, they know where our settlement is. Until then, WE ASSUME NOTHING. We do not try to negotiate with people of no import, they can't make any real decisions anyway. I don't understand the purpose of trying to talk out peaceful talks with grunts, they have the power to do nothing.


My suggestion: We inform them we are there on behalf of our Illhar, and if they got beef, they are more than welcome to send an ambassador to our people to negotiate. Until then, WE ARE NOT MOVING. If they attack, it's because they never had any intentions, at all, of ever being friendly with us to begin with. They want what we have, the end.

Honestly, none of us have the credibility or political clout to try and negotiate with these strangers anything. That's why we have an Illhar. Direct them to the actual leader of our clan and let her do her job because whenever we do try and push our opinions around on the subject, we end up getting exiled with no allies.


Edit: The TL;DR version is: They want us off the land, they go explain to our Illhar why they want us off the land and SHE decides what to do. Asking them a million questions and trying to 'figure them out' isn't our duty. Our Illhar can give us the best information regarding them and how to handle them because that's what she was specifically trained to do.
“The most I can do for my friend is simply be his friend." -Henry David Thoreau
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Re: Dwarves in E18 and what to do about them

Postby Pariel on Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:16 am

Zorlond wrote:
Pariel wrote:That's the big mistake of you people with your peaceful and nice approaches.


And the problem with you people and your hard, violent approaches is that you apparently cannot realize that you cause the situation you claim to want to avoid.

Attack them now, or perform obviously hostile scouting actions to determine their locations and weak points, and all you do is convince the dwarves that no drow, not a single damn one, should be left alive. Shot on sight with no warning or provocation. It's not a case of the dwarves being evil or good, but merely deciding that it is a matter of survival that we die.

Think it through, from their perspective. You see a bunch of guys from a country you've had plenty of bad dealings with in the past. You fire a warning shot, intentionally or otherwise setting off an avalanche. When the guys pick themselves up, you shout over to them that that was a warning shot, and they should leave. How would you respond if suddenly they showed up with armed forces and setting off an avalanche of their own? Yep, you'd decide it's yet another dumb war and start shooting to kill, then charge down into their settlement and settling the whole matter once and for all. Thanks for wanting to paint a bullseye on all our foreheads.


Hard violent way? I'm essentially suggesting to leave with a warning, just as they did tell to us. Is that painting a bullseye? I do not fail to realize that going full force now, will result in the dwarves attacking us... however. There are two things I must say before the "peaceful way ones" chew me on. One, there's no stronghold, but a "camp", mentioned by thalar. If they had a stronghold, i'd bet they'd not be camping within avalanche range, specially not with children. And second, most important. They already got a first impression on us. There's no way we can portray ourselves now as a nice "balancing force" because we just threw an avalanche on them. We're not even a balancing force in this area. So far, we're changing the whole status quo of it.

This does not prevent us, however for just showing a little of spine and not being actually afraid, or shocked at all from their warning. They only want to defend theirselves? They can negotiate. They want war? Be our guest. Show as little of our intentions for now until we can get this whole dealing sort, and answer their warning with a warning on our own.
"Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one." - Marcus Aurelius.
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