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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby Xalgoz on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:59 am

Two important things and one lesser concern. 1. We can't put a system in place that Kern and/or Thalar don't want. If she does at some point need/want helpers, that's ok. 2. If such helpers ever exist, they shoudn't have active ptp characters. That'd be like being a guide on the same server your MMO guild is on. When you decide to sign up as a helper/guide you'd suspend your account and not be able to accumulate any experience, imput any ideas/actions, or appear in the comic. That way we know you're doing it for good reasons rather than just to gain benefits. 3. In my own personal opinion, Thalar probably should not play Elif. However, if she is, one would hope the character would be played as passively as possible, since it's a GM avatar essentially. So if Elif is putting an action in one week, everyone will rush to support this because it's the GM and that action must be the best action, in the same way people rushed to do anything directly suggested by Anjhali because it must mean Kern is suggesting it. By playing passively I mean, don't take a stand on major policy issues within the clan. Build a house, heal people or whatever but don't voice your opinion on "should we go to war with X?" or "where should we explore?" or you'll effectively kill the debate and make the game not fun.
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby Jonarus_Drakus on Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:23 pm

MODERATORS!! *that's* the word I was looking for!

Trade moderators - people who "run" the trade specific threads (not 'control' like the old ranked threads)... People of that trade discuss option, make planes, whatever... (The "Mod" can by all means be one of these people - they're still players too after all). The only 'job' of a "Trade Moderator" Is to observe, to watch out for any obviously stupid ideas and drop a 'friendly warning' - that warning can by all means be ignored, in which case Thalar can still step in with her 'GM Veto' if necessary. But hopefully just having someone who is there in a 'semi-official' capacity to 'warn off' the worst ideas, will help to make people THINK about things first...

Unfortunately, there would have to be some kind of 'identification' for the "Trade Mods" - If only so its publicly known who has Thalar's 'ok' to act in such a role. This would also have the side effect of making impossible for a 'self-serving' Mod to force their own agenda, as they would be know to everyone, and very easily 'reported' if the go beyond the limits of their role...

There is evidence of such a system forming as is. People like Xenon and Taruna (and yes myself too - I'm not trying to "hide" 'on the sidelines' by any means), who are making a point to try and encourage the forming of SOME FORM of system of organization (and say what you want about the specific suggestions, but that desire to organize is not in itself a bad thing by any means).

So, if nothing else, I fully support and ACTIVELY ENCOURAGE this continuing discussion.

Thanks for your time everyone. And thanks for making the point of even starting this thread XeXe! (I just wish I'd gotten off my ass and done it myself! :P )

JD
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby Finish on Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:03 pm

Make me the leader! I promise that I will be a wise rul... gui... helper.
*Looks at the list with the names of all those people who never voted for his suggestions and smiles* :D
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby Jonarus_Drakus on Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:48 pm

Well *I* don't even have a list, its never been an issue to me... 'sides its not a "list" 'till theres more than one name on it...

>rubs his hands together and chuckles evilly as he pictures people trying to figure out if they are that one name }:3 <

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> Eh'rin D'rak Tei'Kaliath. D'rak Dev'ess: viewtopic.php?f=74&t=14467&p=765500#p758482
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby Thalar on Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:15 pm

Xalgoz wrote: 3. In my own personal opinion, Thalar probably should not play Elif. However, if she is, one would hope the character would be played as passively as possible, since it's a GM avatar essentially. So if Elif is putting an action in one week, everyone will rush to support this because it's the GM and that action must be the best action, in the same way people rushed to do anything directly suggested by Anjhali because it must mean Kern is suggesting it. By playing passively I mean, don't take a stand on major policy issues within the clan. Build a house, heal people or whatever but don't voice your opinion on "should we go to war with X?" or "where should we explore?" or you'll effectively kill the debate and make the game not fun.

Just out of curiosity, and because I haven't been keeping track of it myself. Since I became the PtP community manager, how many LA options have I posted? People have been concerned my options would get votes simply because they were posted by me since the time it became possible for us to see who posted an option, it's not a new concern.
And while I'm at it I'd like to ask, how could I as a GM in PtP2 post any option? It is meant to be a game, not a GM-run story. I'm there to find out what you'll do, not what I'd do.

As for this thread, it's not entirely on one topic, but splitting them up would require splitting up posts as well, so let me see if I can address the two issues I'm seeing here.


First of all. If I find that I need a larger moderator team by my side to tackle PtP2, I will make sure that is taken care of. I will not tolerate outside interference on this point.


Secondly. There are no ranked in PtP2. If an individual wants to take an action, they can do so. They will face whatever consequences there are for their action. Now, some of you are envisioning huge feuds with people vying for power.. Over what exactly? There is no work force to take control over, no position of power to claim. There is no need for people to be led unless they want to be led. Trying to convince people they need to be led, that they're incapable of making their own decisions, isn't right. I'm not going to give my support to any attempt at subjugating players or reinstating the ranks. PtP2 comes with freedom, responsibility and consequences. For everyone.

PtP2 is a new system, a new game. People, to generalize, don't like change. We often prefer the status quo. I get that you're worried. You haven't seen the new system, you have no idea how it's gonna work.. the old system is starting to look good again. But that doesn't mean we're gonna go back to it. I suggest you all put your concerns on hold until we've gotten a proper run-through of the new system and know how it works. The time to discuss issues with the system will be after it is done, not before.
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby James Rye on Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:19 pm

Thanks for your words, Thalar. :)

Hope those will ease some worries for the up-coming PtP 2.0. ^^
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby minalia on Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:22 pm

The only times you posted was when the game had serious drama issues and you needed to get kern to actively step in to address the situation into the comic.

I ll say it again, I love the way this game is going forward, we are each responsible for our actions and we will die if we do something really stupid. Make no mistake we are gonna live in a very dangerous zone, but that's part of the charm. ^^;
PTP1 did not really have this nasty foreboding that every new square grid is gonna be filled with nasty surprises that is waiting for those who are not well prepared. It will require planning and coordination for each exploring team and construction teams to make sure we are never ill equipped to face any new challenges that may happen during the game.

Still i am curious in how the comic explain to us in how is expanding our city into the wilds could be a good idea when we are only (more or less) 300 folks.
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby Xalgoz on Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:07 pm

Thalar wrote:
Xalgoz wrote: 3. In my own personal opinion, Thalar probably should not play Elif. However, if she is, one would hope the character would be played as passively as possible, since it's a GM avatar essentially. So if Elif is putting an action in one week, everyone will rush to support this because it's the GM and that action must be the best action, in the same way people rushed to do anything directly suggested by Anjhali because it must mean Kern is suggesting it. By playing passively I mean, don't take a stand on major policy issues within the clan. Build a house, heal people or whatever but don't voice your opinion on "should we go to war with X?" or "where should we explore?" or you'll effectively kill the debate and make the game not fun.


Just out of curiosity, and because I haven't been keeping track of it myself. Since I became the PtP community manager, how many LA options have I posted? People have been concerned my options would get votes simply because they were posted by me since the time it became possible for us to see who posted an option, it's not a new concern.
And while I'm at it I'd like to ask, how could I as a GM in PtP2 post any option? It is meant to be a game, not a GM-run story. I'm there to find out what you'll do, not what I'd do.


I'm not sure, but I don't recall anything at all. At what point in the story did you take over officially?
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby thealbinobutterfly on Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:30 pm

i don't think it quite matters, clearly Thalar is taking the defensive route on this argument. I'm pretty sure all she sees is us talking against her or trying to get above ourselves as players.

"i will not tolerate" words like that, etc- say that she is trying to draw a line of where we are and where she is, so i'm stung by it- but we're obviously meant to remember our little places in this online world.

looking good already, eh guys? *hmmm*
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby James Rye on Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:50 pm

Hm, i dunno about the 300 folks since we can have many charas now, though we can use one per turn only.

I for myself plan to make a girl miner/smith or tech as second chara to help out by important projects or to support warrior ideas for which not enough ore/gems are avaiable or not enough smiths enlisted. :)

@Xal

I have reread the whole PtP story yesterday. As i remember right Thalar made only one or two options and that in 3 years of game-play. I doubt she will do any options in PtP 2.0 as she will be way to busy to work through all of our ideas/actions.^^

@XeXe

Well, yeah. She did said that if she thinks she needs help to manage the game she will find a way to get it, so no need for us to worry. And she also said that we´re all resposible now for our actions as there are no more ranked to blame/lead us. Remember the wounded miners who were still ordered to get in the fight? EXTREM BOOM! XD
Now that we´re all equal it might draw more players to become active and we might become more then just 100 active persons of 250. At least i hope so, we have to wait and see. :3
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby Timotheus on Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:20 pm

Someone will still have to be the bookkeeper - unless everyone will have infinite resources. And in my experience as a GM, players are incapable of coordinating their different bookkeeping needs by themselves, so there will be a need for some sort of an oversight authority to co-ordinate things. And that oversight authority will be, by defacto, a control agency on the players actions within the category being monitored.

Even seemingly total chaos, if it succeeds functionally, proves to have a internal structure and hierarchy of authority.
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby James Rye on Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:54 pm

@Timo

That what i said before, we won´t have a power but a ressource problem in PtP 2.0 cause everyone gonna need this and that but there are still people needed to get those ressources first. Though i guess Kern and his programmers might already have a solution for it, for example a board in which all current projects are enlisted and a board in which all current ressources are enlistend. The projects are shown by how many days and what ressources and people they need to be done and in the ressources board you see in colors which units are already taken by those projects and which are free. Or something like that, i´m no programmer.^^
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby Aerisa on Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:14 am

thealbinobutterfly wrote:i don't think it quite matters, clearly Thalar is taking the defensive route on this argument. I'm pretty sure all she sees is us talking against her or trying to get above ourselves as players.

"i will not tolerate" words like that, etc- say that she is trying to draw a line of where we are and where she is, so i'm stung by it- but we're obviously meant to remember our little places in this online world.

looking good already, eh guys? *hmmm*


This was TRULY uncalled for, Xenon. Thalar is entitled to her opinion, just like you are. She told it clearly and respectfully. Just because she is also firm in affirmating it does NOT mean she is abusing her power or anything of the like. I believe she made some very good point, and even if this isn't enough to earn your respect, the fact that Thalar has -always- been kind, respectful, and most importantly, -available to everyone-, should be more than enough reason for you NOT to bad mouth her in such a way.
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby 3Power on Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:08 am

i don't think it quite matters, clearly Thalar is taking the defensive route on this argument. I'm pretty sure all she sees is us talking against her or trying to get above ourselves as players.

"i will not tolerate" words like that, etc- say that she is trying to draw a line of where we are and where she is, so i'm stung by it- but we're obviously meant to remember our little places in this online world.

looking good already, eh guys?

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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby Hellsion on Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:20 am

Snakes are kickass pets.


They are also delicious AND they make awesome boots.


....what are we talking about?
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