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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby 3Power on Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:19 am

Xenon, your concerns are unwarranted. Natural leaders will emerge from the strength of their ideas alone and valid ideas will not be blocked by an idiot who was lucky enough to fall into power. Any "official" support for said leaders would only delude them into thinking anything but their deeds matter.
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby blackjack217 on Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:41 am

We will see who is right in time won't we? Or we will keep disagreeing due to different standards of success. ^^;
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby thealbinobutterfly on Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:11 pm

I agree on one thing, natural leaders will emerge, as they have for the past few years. What i want to see in place, however, is not a system for leaders, as they are always in abundance- but a system for people to be lead. Authority and Definition, Clarity and Concision, these are what we were lacking in PTP 1, and is what caused our Dissension as ranked and a community in the end. We lacked a strong GM who would be firm, and left it to two forum mods who did their level best- but sometimes even could not get a direction from the GM on many occasion.

Do i think that thalar can do this? most certainly, but not by herself. In the entire history of PTP there has always been thalar.. AND madea. Unofficial helpers is basically free labour, arguably even if they are rewarded claims of favoritism will play out loudly and quickly. we're a group who want attention and spotlight- justly so, with our efforts to make characters in a comic-game.

So, are my fears unwarranted? they are not, my dear trey'la. I'm speaking from things i have experienced over years of playing here, to which for 2 was full-time- clocking in at over 100 hours per week spent servicing the community as the clan's ambassador- listening to people's concerns and complaints. To which, Thalar does more, and in more areas than ptp- and was doing so before i arrived. See again the arguments and worries of her burning out?

However, it's as James & blackjack are saying, we need to wait and see, and yes, i am hopeful that thalar and kern will have foreseen this as well. I just wish our community could have the foresight as well- I really wish for PTP 2 to be a game where we will have less drama, and more fun- and in so, the more we foresee, prepare and plan now, the less headaches we will have later. *heehee*
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby Finish on Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:39 pm

I'am sure there will be a lot of drama. With or without leader. That's the nature of PTP.

One of the first long debats could be about attacking or not attacking the neighborhood towns. Or if the Clan should ally with Miameid or not if they are approaching the Clan. Countless possible flamewars waiting ahead of you TK. ;)

Edit: And you still have Rosani. :D
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby minalia on Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:00 pm

Can't we just give the pest to the nals as a offering of thanks? That would be 1 less piece of garbage we need to deal with in the future.
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby blackshade10 on Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:15 pm

Wait, can we clarify what the concern is? Preferably in a short sentence? Just so it's clear what is being discussed.
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby blackjack217 on Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:50 pm

blackshade10 wrote:Wait, can we clarify what the concern is? Preferably in a short sentence? Just so it's clear what is being discussed.

No ranked, possibility of total chaos.
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby blackshade10 on Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:52 pm

Alright, I don't see why not having ranked would cause chaos(Or how having them would stop it).
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby thealbinobutterfly on Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:05 pm

blackshade10 wrote:Alright, I don't see why not having ranked would cause chaos(Or how having them would stop it).


i beleive we're wrapping up the discussion now, but feel free to read through the previous. i think i quite literally have said it in all different versions i could have, hahaha~
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby Timotheus on Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:49 pm

The biggest failing of the ranked system was it's inability to handle multiple priorities. If the ranked could have further delegated tasks to teams within their group so that multiple projects could be undertaken, a great deal of the tension and bitterness could have been avoided. Instead of having to continuously pick all or nothing projects we could of had a crossbow development group and the algae harvester development, wall construction and plumbing, weaving, pottery, and glass blowing at one time, etc.

The guilds under a leader idea was a good one, but it needed to able to be taken further to allow more players to form work groups and multi disciplinary teams; with a system that would allow time allocation per turn based on assigned personnel to determine any one projects effectiveness. Then the top ranked's job would be more resource management (but with the tools to actually do it), while those below the top ranked could be be actively being creative while lobbying for resources and approval.

We'll have to see how the new system works, but I agree some sort of in house resource management system will be needed, either NPC or player provided.
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby 3Power on Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:06 am

hat i want to see in place, however, is not a system for leaders, as they are always in abundance- but a system for people to be lead. Authority and Definition, Clarity and Concision, these are what we were lacking in PTP 1, and is what caused our Dissension as ranked and a community in the end. We lacked a strong GM who would be firm, and left it to two forum mods who did their level best- but sometimes even could not get a direction from the GM on many occasion.
So what, you want a system that forces people to fall in line? How do you seriously come up with this stuff? The whole point of ptp2 is to put greater focus on individual action. Sorry that people won't always do what you want.

Do i think that thalar can do this? most certainly, but not by herself. In the entire history of PTP there has always been thalar.. AND madea. Unofficial helpers is basically free labour, arguably even if they are rewarded claims of favoritism will play out loudly and quickly. we're a group who want attention and spotlight- justly so, with our efforts to make characters in a comic-game.
Is this whole little rant just a request for a second GM? Or what, you want her to promote some players to helpers, ain't happening.

Thalar's a big girl, she can do it. DMing really isn't that hard.
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby thealbinobutterfly on Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:51 am

Timotheus wrote:
The guilds under a leader idea was a good one, but it needed to able to be taken further to allow more players to form work groups and multi disciplinary teams; with a system that would allow time allocation per turn based on assigned personnel to determine any one projects effectiveness. Then the top ranked's job would be more resource management (but with the tools to actually do it), while those below the top ranked could be be actively being creative while lobbying for resources and approval.

We'll have to see how the new system works, but I agree some sort of in house resource management system will be needed, either NPC or player provided.



Image

This is something along the lines of what i'm trying to convey. It's a system similar to one we use in my LARP group that manages the same amount of people we have in game here in PTP.

You have the head of the whole show, which in this case would be thalar.

Thalar delegates to 3 officers in charge of what all games come down to, and they are the ones to speak to. Thalar is to be bothered only by these three officers for the game-to-game things. If people approach her trying to ask about any of these three topics she directs them to the approriate officer. Things like complaints against another player for rude behaviour, etc, go directly to thalar. Thalar's job is to keep everyone happy and act as the final say in matters we find ourselves split over about. Her directive is not to be questioned, so int he case of rosani, if thalar felt we were spending too much time on the matter, she could say "rosani's fate is thus. we need to move on now."

The ecnomics, warfare, and politics GM's are to focus on exactly that. they will deal with groups pertinent to their categories. for example, all groups like the scouts and warriors and mercenaries would discuss among themsleves what they want to do, but if questions arise or if they want to know what's viable in-game for mechanics, they would run it by the warfare gm who would provide them counsel on their decisions for actions. same principal applies to economics who crosses over- economics gm would also be available for counsel but is the guy who says "yes! attacking that village would give us stuff." but the politics gm steps in and says "dumbasses! we atack that village and we tick off the sharen clan!" warfare gm replies with: "well, if we attack them we get stuff, but then we have to fight off a big clan liek the sharen. hmm. i don't think you guys should do this." and the guilds could agree and not go forward with an action, or if they try and press it, the GM's would have to tel thalar that the guilds want to Leeroy Jenkins, and warnings could be put in place or consequences made apparent before the action is in place, or in cases of extreme- put forth punishment or reactions that will now face the clan as a whole. The gm's should also have power to veto extreme actions that would put risk to the clan, as, if the clan falls the game ends- so it is a vital power to have to keep the game continuing on.

the guild leaders then represent players with interests. here in lies what would be similar to ranked we had in ptp 1. we could have a bunch of scattered warriors or a collected group, but they would be managed by the warriors guild leader. this is the guy closest to shiir, or taruna. they're elected on votes of confidence to represent the group and lead in-game. this persn would be the warmaster, but unlike the ptp 1 ranked, would only be the leader in the waya figurehead is. If combat players had issues with something they wanted to do, they would still bother the warfare GM- but for game and roleplay purposes, the warmaster is the guy to talk to in-game.

does this make better sense?
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby Jonarus_Drakus on Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:04 am

So with Thalar as GM, and the three category "admins" (I'm not a massive fan of re-using the GM tag, but the effect would be the same), to 'guide' not 'control' the flow of what is/isn't viable in-game. With the 'guild leaders' being a mostly in-game/roleplay thing...
Thalar herself would obviously have the final say in determining what sort of "power" would be vested into the various positions of course...

Makes enough sense to me... If you wanted to send this to Thalar as an 'official suggestion' then you have my support (for what little value that is ^^; ).

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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby minalia on Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:54 am

You totally forgot the science division.:P
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby blackshade10 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:57 am

It makes sense and has merit, but until Thalar has need of it, I don't think it's necessary. However, I advocate for the removal of the "leader" parts of that diagram. It's strictly unnecessary.
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