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the view from the sidelines

Postby thealbinobutterfly on Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:12 am

hello all~

i haven't been as active as i used to, but i do peek in now and then. I'm worried about how the LA options keep getting bigger and bigger, when some of them could say the same thing. Yes, this is an old, old oldoldoldoldoldolddddddd complaint, but i see a lot of new names- and you know, those of us who have been around a while (new chars or same olds) should really be working on better teamwork and setting examples for the new players. yes, we have design contests that take up a lot of the chunks of space, and no, i can't really think of anything (except starting up speak your piece again, which i can't because of work) that we can do to keep this down.

Maybe this is the way it is going to go and i should shush up, but if you think about it in terms of efficiency, a few votes scattered to one option that really means the same as another, or is wasted on one option to be disregarded in favor of another movement, are votes representing a group of people who are a mix of don't know wtf/ trying to genuinely pass something that could be done later/ saying the same thing but in different words.

All i'm asking for is that we quell our urges to get spotlighted and start remembering that the bigger picture is about making our clan a successful clan. If we want to be spotlighted we should be coming up with ideas that will benefit the clan and be rewarding the clan member who was innovative enough to dreambaby an awesome idea. I also ask that we try more to communicate with one another and run our ideas by each other for a 24 hour period. It's not a matter of being first, it's a matter of working together. If we are genuinely worried about our idea being stolen, or someone else putting in the idea, then we're not thinking the right way as a team.

on a different note, this is something i carry on to my worries for ptp 2.0, we have been given so little information, or rather, it's not easy to find and thus inefficient for casual and new players looking for info as well, that it's a point of frustration and worry. Yes, i am no longer active, but it's because i am looking at hwo the game is set up and it being run by one person seems doomed to fail. While we had our problems with ranked, it did manage and set a direction for the clan- has the game changed? are we no longer under the run of "make the clan successful" and it is to become a run-off of relic hunters? or are we simply switchign into a D&D campaign?

the D&D campaign is what it is beginning to look like. and it still worried me that we'd have one G.M. Not to say thalar hasn't proven herself capable, but one G.M. works for a smaller game. Managing approx 250 people would require mroe ways to make sure that you can keep the players happy, and i severely doubt one woman would be able to accomplish this. All i'm saying is, before we even start, shouldn't there be more team leaders added to PTP 2.0? I don't want to see us lose any more players, because of disinterest or lack of satisfaction. My motivations are for PTP to be successful and an enjoyable game, since i've been playing now for almost 2-3 years, which i'm sure thalar shares as well, to those of you who think i'm smack talking. 8P

But it is a good point, one person for 250 people doesn't seem liek it would work. All it is going to take is for one or a group of people to feel they got jilted and you've suddenly got people who will lose their faith in the one GM. We've already seen it as a community, a few times, but largely in one forum mod who we all know as Madea. I don't want to see this happen with Thalar, who does a heck of a lot, but let's be hoenst, there was a good cop-bad cop routine going there, and now we just got one cop for ptp.

I suggest thalar speaks with kern in more extent (if she hasn't already) and sees about electing a group of senior players she thinks would be eligible to assist her with her new duties. Yes, i'm talking about re-instating ranked, but to those we vote for and beleive can do a good job. (no, i won't say HEY PICK ME because being your ambassador was enough for a lifetime. :P ) but there are people out there who can do it, like Vexsile, or Taruna, Janavin, Catriana, i'd say Nasfors if he still played, lua'nar, Arlein, etc. the Veterans who have been around pre-theravare. These are people who know the game really well by now and who know Drowtales really welle nough to lead PTP 2.0 into something good for the future. These are people who should be counselled on how to make improvements for the game that will benefit the players, because if we had a good game we'd generate more new subscribers. not hard math, there.

so that's it for now, love ya'll and miss ya'll. be good!

<3
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby minalia on Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:23 am

Sadly kern has been very insistent on removing the ranks leaders as he believed they were part of the problem. Most of the actions of the players will be played on the map grid where we choose to make a action with certain team members to help out speed the construction of a new house, farm, road and terraform a area into a new type of zone if we need to turn a forest land into a fertile land and so forth. Most of the game will be run via a program that has set rules and limits and its Thalar herself that approves if a new design in a golem or a vehicle can be built or not via Anjhali in the LA.

Let's face it most of the actions players could do in ptp1 was influence Anjhali in the LA. In ptp2, they still have the right to vote on LA, but finally they get to play as a real player that only answers to the limits imposed by the game mechanics put into place. They choose the gear they want and the job they want and then make a action that is suited to their goals. Those goals will take time and that should keep them happy to see their house, farm land or golems being built and see their efforts rewarded at the completion of their goal. We can do many many things now instead of being stuck in doing 1 or 2 big projects at a time.

Having people to monitor and instruct the newbies who might flood the game could be a good idea since a lot of them might rush off to a early grave if they ignore the warnings of elder veterans and ruin months of diplomatic relationships with some tribe we meet during the exploration by doing something really stupid.
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby thealbinobutterfly on Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:31 am

it's pretty sad if kern thinks the ranked were the problem, but i can see how he came to the conclusion. too much vying for power, cloak and dagger politics- not to mention some of those in power would power trip. the holding of a ranked title began to equate to something beyond prestige and privilege, it began to be an individual's power int he game itself and less of a responsibility.

however, the idea does work, but here is the actual truth of why things were failing:

we had people who were in charge of a group of interestes, but the real leader was Kern, and he did nothing to enforce or pay attention to the community until things got out of hand. he relied on people like thalar and madea to keep him informed, or whenever a particularly scathing and rude email would be sent his way from a disgruntled player. How does this equate to being the ranked's fault, when we had a shitty GM?

I am saying that if Thalar is going to be the new leader, we should let her have people who can manage a group of people and their interests, like a ranking system. I think it should continue on, rather than die out, but there should be a solid primary leader who... isn't an NPC played by someone who had only a mild interest to the community. *hmmm*

and again, to those of you who would go "smack talk! FLAGGITY FLAG TIEM" please, do appreciate that what i say does have truth to it. We -do- need a more effective system before we launch into a new game, agreed, but one person is just not going to cut it. we -will- see issues, varying from what i said above to thalar burning out really, really quickly.

*edited for spelling mistakes*
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby blackshade10 on Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:39 am

Well, one thing that might help that is the "helper" bit. Looking back at the sneak peek interfaces, it showed a helper dropbox, which makes me think that some things will require X amount of helpers, so it'll be less than 250 people all doing separate actions.
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby minalia on Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:43 am

Well we have 4 weeks before the deadline. Then we get to see what new toys the new game has to offer. Let's not bash the game before its even released.:P

Ptp1 was not perfect, the gm basically screwed us over with most of the last minute changes in every turn during the black sun to nerf us or used misdirection like forgetting we even had a damn walker golem in our city from the spoils of the dvara'ka war. It's damn waste it ended because of some whiny bitches who could not play the game and decided to rage quit but we got a whole new game with a new setting and new resources to play around with. WOOD!!! *wee*

I got my own projects i wish to do with the help of a few friends we could get a boat up in the lake to explore the depths of it and put on a jolly rogers pirate flag on it just for fun. ^^; And not having to deal with some punkass ranked person with a holy then thy attitude i have to explain my actions sure makes me happy.
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby thealbinobutterfly on Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:55 am

blackshade and min, you both are right, but i'm worried about the long-term. I just foresee a situation where there are conflicting or competing groups and from it will result in chaos. There's little you can do to prevent people talking behind one another's backs, but with one person in charge of a whole show, talk will turn sour at one point. It's more of a people-barrier, really, when you have a team. Some people can mesh with an aggressor while one person will cause an aggressor to get more angry just by the way of their speaking or, hell, existence.

But to go back to my concerns over Efficiency, yes, we would have to team up to make something happen, but that's just a branched offshoot of the LA system, one that i don't see how is able to be measured or kept track by others, yet. A lot of the things that will want to get done will apparently need to be done via Forum, and that's again why i say, there needs to be a ranked system in place. we'll have disorganization issues, and from that there will be fights. how can one person do it all? It honestly can't be expected that this will work out 100% the way it's built to, i'd like you all to take a look at exhibit "titanic" for this argument.... :P

Not to mention, thalar is busy with relic hunters and life stuff, so i'm just saying, prevent it now, implement a familiar system that will likely work once you have a firm GM and not a wobbly one like before. Utilise and reward veteran players by placing them n this system, with the same rules as before: voted in, voted out- with a difference: a GM who can control who stays in and who stays out. Give a system to a GM who could entrust that the smaller stuff is being handled in emergencies or hell, even just the regular day to day stuff that could be counted as duties for those ranked.
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby Jonarus_Drakus on Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:57 am

I agree in theory (if nothing else) XeXe... But one interesting thing that should be noted, is that the people who assist Thalar in the running of the game, don't actually have to have any extra reciprocal in-game "rank". By keeping the 'GM assistant' role behind the scenes, you also help prevent the abuse of the power - If the position doesn't come with in-game benefits, abuse of power significantly drops due to a lack of tangible 'reward' for such abuse.

I'm not sure if i can put it much more simply than that...

I will readily admit that I have made a point of telling Thalar directly, that if there is anything I as a player (not in-game character) can do to make her job easier, she need but ask.

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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby James Rye on Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:49 am

Yeah, that complain was already oldoldoldoldoldoldold~ last year when i first started to play PtP. None the less i had my fun with this game despite some arguments and some failures (sniff, clan colors, i was soooooo close. T.T).
However, no more ranked. Please. The problem was either that sometimes the ranked wasn´t on to answer questions or new ideas and sometimes even forgot to put in an action/wasnßt on in tiem to do so or that ideas from *below* were shuted up and only the ranked ones got through.
I remember the long crossbow idea which some non-ranked and scout ranked did liked as a new project but it was closed to instead build that golem car for the algae. Or the many arguments between the ranked about waht to do or what should have been done, i can still remember the one between Xexe and Biel, that was not nice to hear/read about as non-ranked.

So i´m glad we got the whole two-class drama over and out.

However i also see the up-coming problem once we have 250 people who all start their own agenda. Though i dunno if one or two or ten more *assist GMs* will help to organize/control that. That´s up to Thalar to decide. If she says no or yes, i´m fine with either.
I hope, h-o-p-e, that in ptp2.0. we, the players, will organize ourselves. For example i can see that already happen for the warriors and same might happen to other jobs as well, for example the builders who wants to build houses and those who wants to build better forts and such, they gonna find each ther over shoutbox, thread or via pm and use their action to a common goal.

Well that would be the good case scenario, the other is that we all will annoy each other and start lots of fights over what to do next.

About the LA advises, i think that will never get better.^^

About the newbies though, maybe we should besides the guide and such also make a *buddy system*. People who are ready to help/lead newbies for the first days to explain everything via shoutbox or pm. Each newbie will get automatical a *buddy* who will greet him via pm and welcome him to PtP 2.0 and will offer his help/knowledge. That would first help the newbies to integrate in the new system and second the buddys have a bit control over what the newbie plan to do (*I gonna build a golem ASAP!* *You know, you need metal, gem and ada as well as smith and techs to do so. Alone that would take years. Maybe you should put n your idea and golem concept in the +++++ Thread. There are some veterans who might want to help you with that.*).
Well, something like that would be fine. :3
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby Finish on Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:29 pm

I don't believe that there's a way to stop people from putting in the similar options with very minor differences. And each of them will believe that his/her option is unique because the minor difference is very important for him/her. :D However, I don't see any way how you could prevent such a behavior, unless the GM starts to delete suggestions, which could result in a flame war on the forum. So I guess we have to live with it. As long as no Rosani/ Svart situation happens there shouldn’t be that much “clone army” suggestions. :D

That the Ranked are gone is a good thing, however. Sure most of the time they did a good job and kept the Clan running. But it almost reduced the non-ranked to simple underlings. Every time someone made a suggestion he or she had to be careful that it didn’t overlap with the job of the Ranked. Therefore the Ranked made many important decisions, while the suggestions of the Clans people were limited. Future more there was almost no way to stop a Ranked that decided to ignore the opinions of the voters and decided to do his own thing.

Without Ranked everybody has a say everything. Sure this has disadvantages, too. But it gives the players more freedom and more power. Perhaps, I’ve to admit that I was wrong in a few months, but for now, it seems to be a good thing.
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby Xalgoz on Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:19 pm

I liked the ranked system, but Kern seems pretty adamant about removing it from the game. We'll just have to see how things go before asking for some sort of alternate in-game leadership system.
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby 3Power on Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:10 am

it's pretty sad if kern thinks the ranked were the problem, but i can see how he came to the conclusion. too much vying for power, cloak and dagger politics- not to mention some of those in power would power trip. the holding of a ranked title began to equate to something beyond prestige and privilege, it began to be an individual's power int he game itself and less of a responsibility.
お前が言うな
How does this equate to being the ranked's fault, when we had a shitty GM?
Cause we had shitty ranked too, duh.
I am saying that if Thalar is going to be the new leader, we should let her have people who can manage a group of people and their interests, like a ranking system. I think it should continue on, rather than die out, but there should be a solid primary leader who... isn't an NPC played by someone who had only a mild interest to the community.

"...someone like ME MUHAHAHAHAHAHA COUGH COUGH HACK." Yeah, no.
blackshade and min, you both are right, but i'm worried about the long-term. I just foresee a situation where there are conflicting or competing groups and from it will result in chaos. There's little you can do to prevent people talking behind one another's backs, but with one person in charge of a whole show, talk will turn sour at one point. It's more of a people-barrier, really, when you have a team. Some people can mesh with an aggressor while one person will cause an aggressor to get more angry just by the way of their speaking or, hell, existence.
So... all in all no different from PTP1.
Utilise and reward veteran players by placing them n this system, with the same rules as before: voted in, voted out- with a difference: a GM who can control who stays in and who stays out.
Your motives are so pathetically transparent it's not even funny.
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby blackjack217 on Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:24 am

3Power wrote:
it's pretty sad if kern thinks the ranked were the problem, but i can see how he came to the conclusion. too much vying for power, cloak and dagger politics- not to mention some of those in power would power trip. the holding of a ranked title began to equate to something beyond prestige and privilege, it began to be an individual's power int he game itself and less of a responsibility.
お前が言うな
How does this equate to being the ranked's fault, when we had a shitty GM?
Cause we had shitty ranked too, duh.
I am saying that if Thalar is going to be the new leader, we should let her have people who can manage a group of people and their interests, like a ranking system. I think it should continue on, rather than die out, but there should be a solid primary leader who... isn't an NPC played by someone who had only a mild interest to the community.

"...someone like ME MUHAHAHAHAHAHA COUGH COUGH HACK." Yeah, no.
blackshade and min, you both are right, but i'm worried about the long-term. I just foresee a situation where there are conflicting or competing groups and from it will result in chaos. There's little you can do to prevent people talking behind one another's backs, but with one person in charge of a whole show, talk will turn sour at one point. It's more of a people-barrier, really, when you have a team. Some people can mesh with an aggressor while one person will cause an aggressor to get more angry just by the way of their speaking or, hell, existence.
So... all in all no different from PTP1.
Utilise and reward veteran players by placing them n this system, with the same rules as before: voted in, voted out- with a difference: a GM who can control who stays in and who stays out.
Your motives are so pathetically transparent it's not even funny.

Please be more polite.
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby 3Power on Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:31 am

Please be more polite.
No. Deal with it.
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby thealbinobutterfly on Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:44 pm

Treyla has never liked me, folks, she/he won't be polite in regards to anything i will ever bring up. To quote her/him, she/he wanted to personally see me get removed from rank, a long time ago on the shoutbox.Additionally, she has a really bad track record of being rude, so, you can't fault a tree for being a tree~

However, i just want to remind people who will be coming in to this that i really don't want to be a part of a continued rank system, as i said, my dear angry little blueberry. *heehee* no no, my intentions are to ensure that we would have a system in place for reasons as simple as: we are all human players, there will inevitably be conflict. Having one person man the show is never a good idea, we've basically switched kern for thalar with the exception of no support system whatsoever. I see it doomed to fail for reasons already stated above:

Now, as for, she has "unofficial helpers". That's fantastic, so basically they're either A ) helping and reducing/taking on responsibility and stress without reward or B ) favorites who will be subjugated to reward simply because they're in with the right people. either way doesn't seem right to me. make it official, make it fair, do this before we even get started to prevent headaches.

And as for bringing up my history as a ranked, thank you, i'm aware i wasn't without fault- but i was not alone. It was a flawed system from an outsiders and insiders perspective, but, speaking as one who was on the inside for a while, we had no leadership, and this caused much dissension because we were told to leave it to the votes or leave it to the community but then we'd have issues like Rosani crop up, to which a GM should have went: "enough with this nonsense, a rock falls on her, she dies. MOVE ON."

Either way, i want to again say this wasn't supposed to be a flame, or a smack talk, i just wanted to address issues i foresee with my fellow players. But unless we as a group felt this was actually a concern, nothing will be done and changes to be made later will be harder to implement. I thought we were moving -out- of beta, not carrying on with it. :[
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Re: the view from the sidelines

Postby James Rye on Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:15 pm

Well, so far we still don´t have all infos regarding PtP 2.0. so maybe Kern is already aware of that problem and got an idea/feature/system/whatever to fix it. I hope so at least. :3

Since 4 weeks are left till it starts, we should get some more information the next weeks, maybe he will adress the one you brought up as well, Xexe. *smallsmile*
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