Where the clan gathers to discuss the issues raised in the Leader and Event archives.
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What be your will clan Tei'Kaliath?

Stand our ground and don't give in!
25
35%
Take the fight to them and show no mercy!
10
14%
Regroup and prepare for the final blow!
9
13%
Retreat and make a run for Chel!
8
11%
Kicking Kern's arse for screwing us over so royally. :|
19
27%
 
Total votes : 71

Re: In This Darkest Hour...

Postby James Rye on Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:01 am

I would love a *Illhar system* in PtP 2.0. Cause now it just seems so... less we can do with her. All we do is giving her Tir'ay training, sword training and that´s pretty much is it.
I want a system in which we can see how well we can train her in arts or diplomacy or in leading troops and such which will have an effect in PtP 2.0 too when she interacts with other people/clans and also will have an effect how the others watch/reacts to her.
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Re: In This Darkest Hour...

Postby thealbinobutterfly on Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:53 am

if we stay in chel. I would say we move our clan to the surface and let the GM have us face other challenges since we also seem to like gathering resources. I for one enjoyed the "find the cure" arch we had to do with the healers. Imagine a "grow a crop" arch with the harvesters, with us trying to figure out surface farming. Not to mention the challenges we'd face with surface enemies for our warriors, and bandits and whatnot. And politically, learning the customs of the locals and establishing trade would be a juicy challenge.
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Re: In This Darkest Hour...

Postby PenDragon on Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:26 am

James Rye wrote:I would love a *Illhar system* in PtP 2.0. Cause now it just seems so... less we can do with her. All we do is giving her Tir'ay training, sword training and that´s pretty much is it.
I want a system in which we can see how well we can train her in arts or diplomacy or in leading troops and such which will have an effect in PtP 2.0 too when she interacts with other people/clans and also will have an effect how the others watch/reacts to her.

Those are my largest complaints, too. ^^; Unfortunately, a major part of those problems were the players themselves.

All that silly Ti'ray training is the result of people abusing the Leader Archive advice. I've tried more than once to convince those people that An'jhali needed to learn more than just Ti'ray or swordplay to be a leader, but alot of players don't seem to care. I suppose they would rather take part in another "Workout With An'jhali" update than do something useful, which is a problem I truly hope gets addressed in the future along with the lack of Il'har-to-Il'har diplomacy and overall leadership. :V
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Re: In This Darkest Hour...

Postby Xalgoz on Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:16 pm

I'd actually like to have a PC Ilharess, if we get wiped out. Although having an elected PC be in charge of then clan (possibly term-limited to 6 months or 1 year) would have some unique problems of it's own, it would solve a lot of the issues of having a NPC be the nominal "leader" that cannot and does not lead anything. If we survive of course we have to keep Anjhali and the NPC leader system, so it's most likely we'll have that, it's just not ideal.
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Re: In This Darkest Hour...

Postby thealbinobutterfly on Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:25 am

PenDragon wrote:
James Rye wrote:I would love a *Illhar system* in PtP 2.0. Cause now it just seems so... less we can do with her. All we do is giving her Tir'ay training, sword training and that´s pretty much is it.
I want a system in which we can see how well we can train her in arts or diplomacy or in leading troops and such which will have an effect in PtP 2.0 too when she interacts with other people/clans and also will have an effect how the others watch/reacts to her.

Those are my largest complaints, too. ^^; Unfortunately, a major part of those problems were the players themselves.

All that silly Ti'ray training is the result of people abusing the Leader Archive advice. I've tried more than once to convince those people that An'jhali needed to learn more than just Ti'ray or swordplay to be a leader, but alot of players don't seem to care. I suppose they would rather take part in another "Workout With An'jhali" update than do something useful, which is a problem I truly hope gets addressed in the future along with the lack of Il'har-to-Il'har diplomacy and overall leadership. :V


I suppose it clashes with others and some, who like myself, think that the Illharess is more precious than to be treated as a warrior where she can very likely die. and if she dies, the game is over, a rule splayed everywhere and even poetically implied above the Leader Archive.

It frustrates me that people wish for her to be a leader, when she cannot be one in the sense you desire, pendragon. I'm not saying this from opinion, but from fact. Kern has said many a time that the real leaders int his game are the players. If we want something accomplished we need to work with the ranked and the ranked need to work with eachother. The illharess is nothing more than a kingpiece in a chessgame.
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Re: In This Darkest Hour...

Postby minalia on Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:28 am

Well if we manage to route and destroy the eastern enemies. stolen their supplies and manage to get most of our inventory packed up we can leave theravare without any regrets and head to the surface since im sick of Chel and their fucking politics. I rather deal with orcs, ferals and stupid humans instead.
A survivalist should not be a pessimist, he should always be positive, happy and enjoying life more than anyone else because he understands that each minute of peace we have is precious and unique, and he never takes it for granted.
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Re: In This Darkest Hour...

Postby thealbinobutterfly on Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:33 am

agreed. and if not the surface, close to it. we're capable of rebuilding our own city and establishing trade with smalltime locals.
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Re: In This Darkest Hour...

Postby 3Power on Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:42 am

The illharess is nothing more than a kingpiece in a chessgame.

But a piece regardless. And even if a king can't check, it can still be a crucial part of checkmate.

EDIT:
If i could suggest anything that i think we as players would enjoy, it would be a choice system for the LA like mass effect or oblivion,
Oh no, oh god no. That would be horrible. It would kill creativity.
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Re: In This Darkest Hour...

Postby waffleferret on Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:26 am

thealbinobutterfly wrote:agreed. and if not the surface, close to it. we're capable of rebuilding our own city and establishing trade with smalltime locals.

Will we even be allowed to go that far ? I always thought the point of ptp was to have a clan in the Chel clan system and to aim to become a great clan , if we do all that how are we going to keep the game objective?
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Re: In This Darkest Hour...

Postby PenDragon on Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:24 am

thealbinobutterfly wrote:I suppose it clashes with others and some, who like myself, think that the Illharess is more precious than to be treated as a warrior where she can very likely die. and if she dies, the game is over, a rule splayed everywhere and even poetically implied above the Leader Archive.

It frustrates me that people wish for her to be a leader, when she cannot be one in the sense you desire, pendragon. I'm not saying this from opinion, but from fact. Kern has said many a time that the real leaders int his game are the players. If we want something accomplished we need to work with the ranked and the ranked need to work with eachother. The illharess is nothing more than a kingpiece in a chessgame.

The true irony of An'jhali's training is that though some people have insisted on making her into a Warrior, they absolutely refuse to let her fight. :U If I had to guess why, it's probably that they want to train An'jhali in things they think are awesome, for the sake of fun rather than practicality.

And yeah, the democratic style of players being the true leaders is a nice one... but unfortunately it's a concept that has never worked well in practice within PtP. Despite our best efforts we've proven that the clan is incapable of making unified decisions on important issues without some form of help. Even now when we're facing crisis the clan can't come to a consensus on what should be done at this point; some want to fight, others want to run, and some are even abandoning their orders for the sake of selfish glory.

I don't expect (or want) 100% Leadership to be transferred to An'jhali... however, I feel that during times the clan can't make a decision on an important matter it would be nice to receive a little input from the leader to break the deadlock instead of Kern slamming us for not being a "unified clan" again. A slight increase in "overall" leadership as opposed to another lecture/speech on the importance of unification.

It probably won't happen... but it should. ^^; It would certainly solve alot of problems.
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Re: In This Darkest Hour...

Postby Bamawing on Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:43 am

Waffle: I think that was Kern's original idea. But a lot of us agree with Xe, myself included. We play drow but we still act human, and why shouldn't we? We are, by definition, the most human clan in Chel. And we aren't going to fit in well as a result.

There is one BIG thing I would love to see changed as far as PtP goes. I've mentioned it elsewhere, but I think it deserves to be said again (and again and again).

The TK are never, ever, ever going to be "unified" the way I think Kern wants us to be. We are simply too diverse. Period. We have American military, American civilian, Canadians, Europeans, and probably others as well. Living for a while in Germany made me really appreciate how very different cultures can be... and how crazily diverse my homeland of America is. (Seriously, you can kinda guess where a German is from based on what they look like. The lighter-skinned, lighter-haired type generally come from up north, while my dark hair fit right in with southern Germany. Those are generalizations, naturally, but it's a decent rule of thumb. That don't happen in America. You have no idea where a person was born, where they live now, or even if they're American or not, based solely on appearance.)

My point is, I don't think Kern realizes how insanely diverse our clan is. It's unreasonable to expect us all to agree. We aren't going to "speak up with one voice" on anything... except the sugary "we support you, lady An'jhali" options that I've heard people complaining about.

Instead of focusing on being united, I wish Kern would let us focus on using our diversity to our advantage. That's a hard job, but I think we're up to it. It's certainly more possible than a "united" clan.

And honestly, isn't An'jhali supposed to be thinking for herself a little now? I thought that she was supposed to slowly start making her own decisions. (That was part of the reason I think I lost interest a while ago... I was angry that she hadn't done anything about that daughter of our enemy. We had taught her nearly from day one that you don't trust old enemies. I was seriously going WTH? Please forgive me for bringing that up again, but I needed it to prove my point.)

I think Kern is trying to make An'jhali incapable of making decisions because we "aren't capable of making decisions." But again, give up this "the clan must be unified" nonsense. It ain't gonna happen.
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Re: In This Darkest Hour...

Postby thealbinobutterfly on Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:12 am

If not for ethnicity and different out-of-game cultural differences, there are also gross amounts of personal differences and political viewpoints that cause many issues.

Unity in the clan is already there. We all agree to be Tei'Kaliath and if we remain, that is as close to loyalty as we get. When i was going through the original podcast made almost 3 years ago now, when ptp was new, kern spoke of us almost with a fantasy-like tone, saying that he wanted us to be loyal etc. It came across to me as he was trying to create a real-life clan from his world, and in a sense he has. I've made a lot of new friends in this game and thus it earns my loyalty, but do i feel like i am in a clan or do i feel like i am in a club? it's more to the latter.

as for the players leading the game not working, it's not a matter of we can't do it, but the LA system providing a voice and actually having power to contradict the ranked's action for the dissatisfied player who got told no. the system is flawed, we all know that, but it needs to be re-worked and not depend on the honesty or the intelligence of the player. If things in life worked that way, and everyone had the ability to step back and go, "well am i helping or making things worse", there'd be less need for people who do my line of work in real life. I beleive there is also a great deal of difference in interpretation as to what the game is, motivated by people wanting different things out of this game. Some people play and can understand things plain enough, but others will read into things too much or try and twist the interpretations either by honest mistake or by greed to suit their own needs. We are, a social experiment, thusly. We are currently categoried under, if anything, mob mentality. I have seen the tactics used by people smarter than i to turn favor against someone, and like any mob, people who stick out are under hyper-sensitive judgement from the rest of the mob. But i digress:

If this game was to be re-worked we'd need to do one of either:

1) avoid all account for the honesty or intelligence of the average player. We'd have to make things so black and white that there would be no room for interpretation and no wiggle room for weasels.
2) have a very involved and active GM administration, and remove the focus on Anjhali to the focus instead on the clan as a whole or the players themselves.

I am in favor of option 2. We have been working and reworking and struggling with 1 for a while now. It is the system we face that is in flaw and are constantly facing issues with. Number 2 would solve problems we face from 1, removing things that we have been having a struggle with. Players feel that ranked run the game, and i beleive another key motivator for the dissent LA advisors are their lack of showtime. If more people could be displayed per week, we'd remove the competitive "throw the other guys under the bus" feelings some of the troublemaker players have. As well as if we actually implemented a reward for those who genuinely bring good things to the community, such as teamwork or ideas. A good deed seeks no reward but is given one.

Anjhali removed as our focus would also satisfy those looking for true leadership. I agree the heroes in this game need to be us, the players, as a base belief since simply, we do all the damn work in trying to make things fit with the problems the GM gives us. Not to be interpreted as: we do all the work, period. this is so untrue, the real work goes to the administration and artist, but to be interpreted as: we as players spend a lot of time researching, drawing, collaborating to work with one another and come up with things that fit into the game, it is an effort expended and thus should receive more attention in comic. Some will argue this is already happening, in the EA, but scroll back up to issues faced by the LA. we have conflicting systems in place.

So in conclusion of why 2 would work, simply focusing on us as players is basically what we've wanted without saying so. I think we have way more interest in the day-to-day things we do as a clan than we realize or admit. The LA has not always stuck to anjhali things and has instead focused on key pivotal events the GM has deemed noteworth for story. I conclude that this is was we really want out of the LA: removing anjhali as someone to be focused on and instead noted as an NPC to be interacted with, the true leaders and innovators of this game recognized as the players themselves.
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Re: In This Darkest Hour...

Postby Timotheus on Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:41 am

I at first thought that as a NPC and leader, her role was as a sort of gate keeper, ranked and members would bring proposals to her as the clan head, then Kern, as the GM could okay, modify, or veto them as the rules required. She was a control factor on our actions. But this turned out not to be the case unless we really forced the issue and then we were scolded for doing so. Which never made sense since that was the only way to ever find out what was allowable in many cases (the aquaculture project comes to mind as a good example).
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Re: In This Darkest Hour...

Postby James Rye on Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:38 am

Getting away from chel ends the game in my eyes since we´re only accpeted as a clan if we stay near Chel and earn respect through our actions.

Giving Anji a more important/leading role would be nice to know the direction for the clan instead of short-sighting advises which only come to the next info we get per update.

We do need to try to talk with more clans and also contact those who we had contracts before since then Kern may or may not giv us events. If we coutine to stay isolated in our cavern, it´s no wonder that we get attacked by BS or another clan who wants our turf.
But to make that happen we would not only need a more progressive ambassador but also a pushing Illhar who not only always comes with some ranked or LA advise to some clan, but also on her own aka we need to visit the sharen now or i want a meeting with the siksa in 5 days and something like that.
A PC illhar could help here more or a active GM for the NPC Illhar.

And i do agree that Anji may be only a chesspiece, but one that can defend itself much better like for example our ambassador, a piece who got lots of training in different fighting and defence arts and she´s the one piece which does give the clan a meaning, she´s our only illhar and people would even be okay with sacrificing their lives for her; at least around 15 of them would let their chara die to save her.
For a NPC which *doesn´t have much importnace cause she´s a king piece*, this is quite remarkable and should be used in PtP 2.= to make the Illhar a better living chara as that she will try to upgrade the defense/change the clan into a military one and so on.
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Re: In This Darkest Hour...

Postby Lyrthis on Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:41 am

I think that one of the problems we have stems from the fact that PtP is more then less a storytelling game... and many players are trying to play it like a roleplaying game or even worst, like Daydream(i wonder that no1 has tried to get a Anj'hali Fanservice yet through a LA).

As i understand the ranked can edit there actions and it can be vetoed too, this is sure something that should be doable with the LA too as someone allready said. That would prevent many things that can go wrong with an LA.
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