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Re: Driders

Postby Madea on Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:22 am

Ehid'rin wrote:
Taruna wrote:
As I understand it, Meck, Durlyn, Kael, Kerr, Kazdrin, and Wod were all "injured", and out of those, Meck, Durlyn, Kael, and Kerr have all been placed on permanent guard duty in Ther BECAUSE of this, even with these implants etc. This led me to believe as it is Madea that does the Squad assignments, that the injuries play a role in game.... ^^;


I think this should be answered by Madea himself there ^^'


Lol, definitely xD here's to hoping he peeks in here and can clarify at some point.


Short answer: Injuries will not permanently hinder us unless we cannot overcome them in some way.

Think of injuries like a "token" that gets placed on a squad and/or individuals. Once everyone has been rehabilitated in one form or another, that token gets removed and the squad is treated like a full-strength squad with no penalties. Right now, the squad that is on Ther Guard is technically only held up because one member still needs his prosthetic arm or more extensive rehab. Once that is done, the squad goes full active again.

As it stands, the squad is mostly capable, I'm just playing it safe so that any squad which responds first to any external crisis is a fully capable one. While Kern might eventually say "one golem prosthetic damaged" in a future battle, until that message we can consider all warriors to be equal regardless of actual condition (representing the average potential of overall forces rather than a strict accounting of individual ability).
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Re: Driders

Postby Kitab Al'Ibar on Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:57 am

Ein'keos wrote:Is this in the Beld podcast? I've never heard of this naga like thing the jaal do.


Much of the information about how the Beld do it is, I don't recall if the Vloz naga are mentioned in that one or a differant one though. It has been quite a while since I listened to them last
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Re: Driders

Postby Finish on Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:28 am

As far as I know there`s the "old way" of making Driders which involves magic. And there`s the "new way" which means a big spider eats your lower body parts. And even among the Bel
most Driders are created the new way, because only a few people even in that Clan knows the old way. At least that`s what I was told as I created my Drider for RH.

Also there aren`t many sane Driders outside of the Bel in Chel. I guess not more thenfive, considering how rare the technics of making them is. And not every Drider is a badass warrior.
They need combat training, too. Without a Clan chances to get a prober combat training are very low. So there just not enough Drider avliable to hire them as mercenaries. Assuming
Kern would allow us to have a whole bunch of guard NPCs in the Clan.

So there aren`t enough Driders on the market for hire and learning the process of making Driders from the Bel is as likely as learning Sealing from the Kyorl.

Perhaps we can look in other cities, but traveling to this places takes a lot of time and even if there are people or Clans who know this technic, there`s no guraantee that they will
teach it to strangers.

Personally I think we shouldn`t focus on Driders. Sure they are good warriors but it`s not like we can compensate our lack of Driders. Other Clans can live and fight pretty well
without Driders, too.
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Re: Driders

Postby Ehid'rin on Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:15 pm

Madea wrote:Short answer: Injuries will not permanently hinder us unless we cannot overcome them in some way.

Think of injuries like a "token" that gets placed on a squad and/or individuals. Once everyone has been rehabilitated in one form or another, that token gets removed and the squad is treated like a full-strength squad with no penalties. Right now, the squad that is on Ther Guard is technically only held up because one member still needs his prosthetic arm or more extensive rehab. Once that is done, the squad goes full active again.

As it stands, the squad is mostly capable, I'm just playing it safe so that any squad which responds first to any external crisis is a fully capable one. While Kern might eventually say "one golem prosthetic damaged" in a future battle, until that message we can consider all warriors to be equal regardless of actual condition (representing the average potential of overall forces rather than a strict accounting of individual ability).


Thanks Madea :) Since this is the case, pursuing driders isn't something that we would do exclusively for the purpose of rehabilitating injured characters, and instead, if pursued, would have to be done for a reason such as the one stated in the OP, the creation of a flexible renewable resource (something that would not necessarily be true for any "true" mounts) for the clan's use, in this case, a combat resource.

Finish wrote:As far as I know there`s the "old way" of making Driders which involves magic. And there`s the "new way" which means a big spider eats your lower body parts. And even among the Bel most Driders are created the new way, because only a few people even in that Clan knows the old way. At least that`s what I was told as I created my Drider for RH.

Also there aren`t many sane Driders outside of the Bel in Chel. I guess not more thenfive, considering how rare the technics of making them is. And not every Drider is a badass warrior. They need combat training, too. Without a Clan chances to get a prober combat training are very low. So there just not enough Drider avliable to hire them as mercenaries. Assuming Kern would allow us to have a whole bunch of guard NPCs in the Clan.

So there aren`t enough Driders on the market for hire and learning the process of making Driders from the Bel is as likely as learning Sealing from the Kyorl.

Perhaps we can look in other cities, but traveling to this places takes a lot of time and even if there are people or Clans who know this technic, there`s no guraantee that they willteach it to strangers.

Personally I think we shouldn`t focus on Driders. Sure they are good warriors but it`s not like we can compensate our lack of Driders. Other Clans can live and fight pretty well without Driders, too.


/me points at Kitab's post on the previous page

As for training, seeing as warriors somehow transform from militia to "badass" warrior in something like 6 in game days. In this case, I sincerely doubt that Kern's gonna slap down super realistic "training" requirements, in just this one case, although it's worth considering the fact that they would have to train in game for X amount of time before being a very effective resource.... just like every other occupation.

As for creating them ourselves, as you said, if and because the lack of information on the "original" technique readily available to the main Chellian population, we could appeal to get it. You actually bring up a good point by saying other cities, possibly it was something that the TK knew how to do before we fled?

Finally, it's not about compensating for a lack of driders, having driders in and of themselves is a negligable resource, however individually powerful they may be. The OP was about possibly creating a drider force to serve as a renewable multi-function resource, specifically to use as a type of cavalry in place of purchasing some sort of mount.

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Re: Driders

Postby Finish on Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:18 pm

I have no doubt that a Drider PC would be a warrior as soon he works under Shiir. However a Drider NPC with no combat experience will not turn into a warrior over night. Assuming he even has an interest
in fighting and not perfer trading or other more safty buisnesses like Thera.

But now back to the playable Driders: First of all, what if someone is a Drider and doesn`t want to be a warrior. Unlikley? Not really if you see that a lot of people switched their job at least once.
What if out of five Driders only two remain warriors and one becomes a builder, one a nurse and one a overseer? Restrict Driders to warriors? This would limit the freedom of the players a lot and everytime they leave/join the warriors they need a new character.

Finally there is the balance problem. If Driders are not different than normal warriors in the Game why would we even need them, beside for the sake of adding more diversity? And if the Driders are in some points better as normal Drows, what would prevent people from creating only Driders as warriors? Because if I had the choise between a bronze and steel sword I would pick the last one. And if Driders are better warriors and can switch their job, would this mean they are also better scouts, healers or miners?

And now to the point of getting the technique. It was not known in our old city. Kern said we didn`t know about Xul, Drowussu, Driders, Tainted and all the other stuff from Chel. We knew demons from our legends but most of our generation didn`t meet one in their whole live. So no TK knows anything about creating Driders - no living one and probably no death one. Of course we could try our luck in other cities. Still it`s like looking for the needle in the haystack.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the Drider idea itself. It`s just that it leads to far to many complication. Playing a Drider is far more different than playing a TK or a Chelian Drow. Even more different than playing a Light elve and a Drow.
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Re: Driders

Postby benuminister on Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:42 am

Finish wrote:But now back to the playable Driders: First of all, what if someone is a Drider and doesn`t want to be a warrior. Unlikley? Not really if you see that a lot of people switched their job at least once.
What if out of five Driders only two remain warriors and one becomes a builder, one a nurse and one a overseer? Restrict Driders to warriors? This would limit the freedom of the players a lot and everytime they leave/join the warriors they need a new character.


Couldn't you say by accepting the driderfication you must play a warrior?
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Re: Driders

Postby Ehid'rin on Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:01 am

Finish wrote:I have no doubt that a Drider PC would be a warrior as soon he works under Shiir. However a Drider NPC with no combat experience will not turn into a warrior over night. Assuming he even has an interest
in fighting and not perfer trading or other more safty buisnesses like Thera.

But now back to the playable Driders: First of all, what if someone is a Drider and doesn`t want to be a warrior. Unlikley? Not really if you see that a lot of people switched their job at least once.
What if out of five Driders only two remain warriors and one becomes a builder, one a nurse and one a overseer? Restrict Driders to warriors? This would limit the freedom of the players a lot and everytime they leave/join the warriors they need a new character.

Finally there is the balance problem. If Driders are not different than normal warriors in the Game why would we even need them, beside for the sake of adding more diversity? And if the Driders are in some points better as normal Drows, what would prevent people from creating only Driders as warriors? Because if I had the choise between a bronze and steel sword I would pick the last one. And if Driders are better warriors and can switch their job, would this mean they are also better scouts, healers or miners?

And now to the point of getting the technique. It was not known in our old city. Kern said we didn`t know about Xul, Drowussu, Driders, Tainted and all the other stuff from Chel. We knew demons from our legends but most of our generation didn`t meet one in their whole live. So no TK knows anything about creating Driders - no living one and probably no death one. Of course we could try our luck in other cities. Still it`s like looking for the needle in the haystack.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the Drider idea itself. It`s just that it leads to far to many complication. Playing a Drider is far more different than playing a TK or a Chelian Drow. Even more different than playing a Light elve and a Drow.


My thought process was to create PC Driders (if possible) for use as cavalry units, without having the need to purchase and provide for mounts. So, they would obviously be a Warrior only PC, because as you pointed out, they would have to be "equal" to other PC's or they'd become unbalanced. My thought on how this could be done is that they would just be treated like mounted warriors all of the time. I thought that was clear, and if not, I apologize.

As you pointed out however, the biggest difficulty would be procuring the method, but, the way that I see it, purchasing, or procuring a technique that can be used indefinitely is infinitely more valuable then purchasing mounts one at a time, and in the long run, almost certainly cheaper. That being said, finding it COULD be a problem, and if it's like you said about Kern saying the TK never had driders (which contradicts his WS pages on the subject) this entire subject is moot in that the TK have no idea driders even exist, and as such, could never "decide" to make them.
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Re: Driders

Postby Finish on Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:58 am

Ehid'rin wrote:My thought process was to create PC Driders (if possible) for use as cavalry units, without having the need to purchase and provide for mounts. So, they would obviously be a Warrior only PC, because as you pointed out, they would have to be "equal" to other PC's or they'd become unbalanced. My thought on how this could be done is that they would just be treated like mounted warriors all of the time. I thought that was clear, and if not, I apologize.
As you pointed out however, the biggest difficulty would be procuring the method, but, the way that I see it, purchasing, or procuring a technique that can be used indefinitely is infinitely more valuable then purchasing mounts one at a time, and in the long run, almost certainly cheaper.


Mounts have more than one advantage over Driders. First of all beeing a Drider is something premanent. You have to take all the disadvantages too. Because if there are no disadvantage what would prevent people from turning all warriors into Driders if they are better in anything than regular warriors?

Also I believe you overestimate the costs of mounts. We have to buy them once, sure, but then they only cost us some food. Purchasing the Drider technic could be far more expensive than 100 mounts, depending on the price. Also by the time we finally are able to become thrustworthy enough to learn this technic, we probably already have a whole cavallery. There`s a reason why people don`t use the services of the Jaal regularly. Sometimes the price for the perfect solutions is to high.

Let`s look at some of the other cities from the RPG forum:

- Char: Ruled by only one Clan who are Spirite Summoners. Creating Driders doesn`t seems something they know or bother with because of the spirit guardians. The most other people are just poor.
- Hel: The name of this city says everything. Not a good place to look around. And we would have to cross an underground ocean to reach this place.
- Nuqrah'Shareh: The Illhardo hometown. They are known for their Spellsong abilities and not for making Driders.
- Mimaneid: Hometown & main base of the Nal`Sarkoth. Like the Illhardo the Nal`Sarkoth aren`t know for making Driders.
- Felde: The Aspen of DT. Rich people from other Clans have estates in this place, while the native population are mostly fishermans. No hints of a Drider-making Clan.
- Sha'shi: Called the town of the scholars and is a research outpost of the Sharen. However they seems to focus on golem making, not creating Driders.
- Raveran: A city created for the RPG. It`s canon and allow roleplayers much freedom. Because of this nothings what happens there affects the canon of the main story or Chel. Not sure if we could interact with this city.
- The Hive: The home of the intelligent Driders. Last thing I heared was that it was closed for restauration (in other words: changes in the background). Anyway the Driders from this place are all born Driders and don`t know how to create other Driders.

So neither of this city seems like a place with a Clan who makes Driders. Looking around at all this places hoping for somebody who know this almost forgotten technic AND would sell it to us takes a long time. So our best chances are with the Bel and it`s as easy to learn their way of creating Driders as for an non-TK to learn Tir`aya.

Ehid'rin wrote:That being said, finding it COULD be a problem, and if it's like you said about Kern saying the TK never had driders (which contradicts his WS pages on the subject) this entire subject is moot in that the TK have no idea driders even exist, and as such, could never "decide" to make them.


We TK are from a different city. A very isolated city. Even on the surface we probably hadn`t that much contact with other dark elven kingdoms. Different culture = different technology. So we meet our first Driders in Chel and after visiting the Bel we at least know that they excist.
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Re: Driders

Postby Ein'keos on Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:50 am

We could always go for golem drider suits like this:

Image

If people feel uncomfortable with golems we could just limit their use to the home guard, although so far the spider golem has performed admirably in the vast majority of combat situations and as we've seen in this attack golems are no joke. Could be a way to go and we've already mastered the spider form in golems.
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