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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby Kael on Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:54 pm

*eek*

Seems to be quite a hot debate here. However, I must say that I see having the clan cite an oath of loyalty to be rather redundant. Forgive me, Trey'la, but swearing loyalty to someone we are already loyal to in the first place, takes away the meaning of the oath. I do disagree with people throwing up counter-advice right off the bat without taking time to debate the issue. It is those very actions that have An'jhali pulling her hair in frustration. In the past, if there was advice that people felt shouldn't go through, they would simply not vote for it. I feel that by going back to that, would help ease An'jhali's mind immensely.
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby Xalgoz on Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:22 am

thatguyvex wrote:
After all there is a marked difference between the Forum and the Comic.

Kern himself has said himself that "What happens in the forum stays in the forum", which means the arguing and debate that occurs here in the forum, drama injected or not, shouldn't be reflected in the comic.

It is, unfortunately, but there is still a difference between how the story progresses in-comic and how the story progresses here in the forum community. So in regards to trying to put An'jhali's (in my opinion overblown and overdramatic) fears to rest, an in-comic showing of Clan unity via some kind of oath isn't a bad thing.

The thing that gets me here is that An'jhali herself is making such a big deal over such a little thing. Did Kern really think a internet forum community wasn't going to spend its days debating and arguing over stuff? Does he think if he makes An'jhali act emo enough that it'll somehow just make everyone suddenly unite and begin wholesale agreeing with one another on everything?

I haven't even spent that many years on internet forums, but I understand that part of their intrinsic nature is that people will argue and debate with each other over almost anything. That's the nature of things. Its not bad. It only becomes bad when people cease to respect one another while debating.

Anyway, point is, if enough people vote for the oath then it at least gives An'jhali an idea that her people aren't going to be slitting each other's throats in the streets. Claiming that the community needs to change is all well and good, but I can tell you now that this community will never cease to be a place where ideas and opinions aren't argued over. We don't have to stop debating in the community; that's what the community is here for. Its kinda the core mechanic of the game. But we can still, in-comic, show our NPC Illhar that its okay for us to argue; that's its normal and just part of the process.


My thoughts exactly.
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby Talancir on Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:32 am

Trey'la, there's no need to be condescending. Besides, in the OP I asked for civil discussion. If you can't do it now, I suggest you calm down (as writer suggested earlier), take a breather, do something to take all that stress away, then come back to the conversation.

Now then, I would caution some very careful reading here. I'm not inventing a problem to fight about. no one is directly attacking you. All that's been said in the OP in regard to the oath (which is my opinion, mind you, not the law and the letter), is that swearing an oath is not needed for us to take action to address what prevents the community from functioning as it should (with a nod to thatguyvex).

Your proposal is (in my view) a short time fix at best. By the time the next drama subject goes off, people will be divided yet again, and what worth will that oath be then? The community has issues because of certain individuals that are part of the community. Being a member of said community means that we are responsible for our individual actions and how that would affect the community at large. You're not being rational; stop trying to find some hidden meaning in what I'm trying to say, and just take it for what I've said.

I mean, the only reason you could logically be against making a promise and keeping it, is if you don't want to be committed to not fighting.

Don't be silly. As I said before, truth is truth, and I would rather have my actions speak for me. Kinda why I made this thread? the original purpose of this thread is to discuss problems with the community that we have the power to fix. If that doesn't show my desire to resolve the conflicts in this community, I don't know what will. As long as you keep trying to demonize my intent, we're not going to get anywhere.
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby 3Power on Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:04 am

Trey'la, there's no need to be condescending. Besides, in the OP I asked for civil discussion. If you can't do it now, I suggest you calm down (as writer suggested earlier), take a breather, do something to take all that stress away, then come back to the conversation.
I suggest you get down off of your high horse. You are not a mod, you are not better than anyone else, stop acting like it.

Words

Look, I don't know if you even realize this yourself, but this whole thread reads as "we should not vote for that oath, but we should do blady blahdy blahdy instead"
Is this true, or false?

If true, then you are being completely illogical about the idea that the two cannot be combined, and are indeed making arguments out of nothing as a result.
If false, then this is a simple misunderstanding and you should be more careful with your words in the future.

So which is it?
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby Talancir on Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:34 am

Ok fine, let me distill and reiterate my position. I do not believe we should have to do an oath when we can just work to resolve our differences. I also never said I was anything special, but you're not either. It's entirely within my right to say that you need to chill out. Can we back back on topic now?
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby Jonarus_Drakus on Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:29 am

I cant believe that *I* an im-patient, over-opinionated, control freak, is the one having to do this but:

EVERYBODY JUST SHUT UP FOR 2 SECONDS! GOD!

This thread was created to make civil discussion about options for countering the trend towards unnneccisary arguments. But whats happened? THIS VERY THREAD has devolved into a pointless argument. Trey'la "oath of loyalty" advice may seem redundent to some (myself inculded), BUT is letting it go really going to do any damage? I don't really see how it could, so lets let it be, either it will get enough votes, or it wont, and that will be that.
On the other hand, Trey'la, you seem obsessed with reading more into the statements of others they they themselves are intending, sometimes a pickle really is just a pickle! Let it go! And yes, THIS statement is also just a pickle, read the words on the page, they are the only words i am trying to use, nothing more, nothing less, JUST what you see.


Now, to the issue at hand: That un-needed advices and the counters to them are having a significant negitive impact on the enjoyability of the game in general (please do correct me if I am wrong about this being the primary problem at hand).
The most important factor we need to agree on is that this is the issue we need to fix, untill we can agree on that, we can't even begin to try and solve said issue. So I'm calling everyone out and asking that you all focus on THIS ONE QUESTION: IS THE PROBLEM I LISTED JUST ABOVE THE PROBLEM IN EVERYONES MIND? A simple yes or no will suffice, disscusion can come once we have a clear idea of WHAT WE ARE DISSCUSING! Untill then any disscusion will be aimless and achieve nothing.

Thankyou for your time.

JD
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby 3Power on Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:43 am

EVERYBODY JUST SHUT UP FOR 2 SECONDS! GOD!

We shut up for a good six hours, what are you yelling about?
On the other hand, Trey'la, you seem obsessed with reading more into the statements of others they they themselves are intending, sometimes a pickle really is just a pickle! Let it go! And yes, THIS statement is also just a pickle, read the words on the page, they are the only words i am trying to use, nothing more, nothing less, JUST what you see.
Jhon, frankly, this guy's posts are mostly incomprehensible. He sounds like a philosophy major in love with buddhism. I asked him a true/false question and got neither as a response. So forgive me for not understanding his motivations.

However, were they based on logic, there would be only be a few reasons to deny this action:
He is afraid of being unable to keep the oath,
Right action speaks for itself and doesn't need to be held up by promises that might not be held up in return.

He wants the votes for something else,
what better way to get this done than to just do it? why would we need to make Leader's advice options and waste some perfectly good votes in order to accomplish this?

Or, he doesn't get the point of the oath,
Besides, if you really think hard about it, our loyalty to the Illhar was never in question. It's the infighting (i.e. not in opposition to An'jhali) that is. Therefore, making an oath of loyalty to An'jhali in response to our infight is not only not as helpful in its ability to help the community, but unnecessary.

All of which are backed up by things he's said.
Ultimately, I've gotten the impression that only reason he wants it to not happen is because it doesn't have to happen.
Now, to the issue at hand: That un-needed advices and the counters to them are having a significant negitive impact on the enjoyability of the game in general (please do correct me if I am wrong about this being the primary problem at hand).
The most important factor we need to agree on is that this is the issue we need to fix, untill we can agree on that, we can't even begin to try and solve said issue. So I'm calling everyone out and asking that you all focus on THIS ONE QUESTION: IS THE PROBLEM I LISTED JUST ABOVE THE PROBLEM IN EVERYONES MIND? A simple yes or no will suffice, disscusion can come once we have a clear idea of WHAT WE ARE DISSCUSING! Untill then any disscusion will be aimless and achieve nothing.
No.
I don't know what your definition of unnecessary advice is though.
In my dictionary it is any advice which seeks to ask a question already answered or intrudes upon the duties of the ranked. I don't consider so-called fluff advices that are intended to have a positive effect unnecessary.
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby Talancir on Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:48 am

trey'la, unless we consider you as an example of what not to do, you are off topic. please stay on the subject.
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby 3Power on Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:42 am

trey'la, unless we consider you as an example of what not to do, you are off topic. please stay on the subject.

I am on topic regarding one of the two main subjects brought up in the op. If you wanted this thread to only be about "listing problems in the community for us to resolve" then you shouldn't have mentioned the oath at all, much less in the title. By doing so, you only ended up causing a problem.
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby Jonarus_Drakus on Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:11 am

3Power wrote:
EVERYBODY JUST SHUT UP FOR 2 SECONDS! GOD!

We shut up for a good six hours, what are you yelling about?


Don't split hairs, I'm in Australia, i cant always make a post in the most timely fashion, so i try to ingnore intonational time differences and just call things as i see them, which in this case was a bunch of pointless arguing on both sides (YES BOTH!). Talancir made perfect sense to me. All thats being suggested is that that the advice you put up was not needed. Not that it was bad, or would cause problems, simply that the same end result could be achieved WITHOUT your suggestion.

He is afraid of being unable to keep the oath,

And rightly so, the fact that your arguing with him proves it!

Ultimately, I've gotten the impression that only reason he wants it to not happen is because it doesn't have to happen.

Exactly!! Was that really so hard to aknowledge? HE STATED AN OPINION! AN OPINION I HAPPEN TO AGREE WITH! Something that doesn't have to happen but does anway is the DEFFINITION of pointless!

PLEASE TREY'LA, for the love of sanity, if someone disagrees with you, accept it as a difference of opinion, and move the f### on! This is one of the MAIN REASON the problems we've been having exist to begin with, people being unwilling to accept any ideas other than thier own, and being totaly unable to admit that they have lost (right or wrong aside - it really doesn't matter as far as this issue is concerned) and move on. PLEASE REALISE THAT BY DISAGREEING WITH THIS YOU WILL SIMPLY BE PROVING ME RIGHT AND TAKE A STEP BACK FROM THIS SO WE CAN BACK TO THE REAL PROBLEM!

JD
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby thatguyvex on Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:45 pm

PLEASE TREY'LA, for the love of sanity, if someone disagrees with you, accept it as a difference of opinion, and move the f### on! This is one of the MAIN REASON the problems we've been having exist to begin with, people being unwilling to accept any ideas other than thier own, and being totaly unable to admit that they have lost (right or wrong aside - it really doesn't matter as far as this issue is concerned) and move on. PLEASE REALISE THAT BY DISAGREEING WITH THIS YOU WILL SIMPLY BE PROVING ME RIGHT AND TAKE A STEP BACK FROM THIS SO WE CAN BACK TO THE REAL PROBLEM!

JD


........ o_O

Um, right.

You want Trey'la to accept that you disagree with her. Fine enough, she seems to understand and accept that you disagree with her just fine.

Can you accept that she disagrees with you?

It doesn't seem to be the case from your post.

Now I may very well be wrong here but it sounds like you're idea here is that people should stop arguing and just agree with each other by one side accepting that they are wrong the moment they are disagreed with by another party. That the problem with P2P is that in debate one side will not concede or compromise with another?

Okay, the second part of that I can partially agree with. After all the general idea of debate is to eventually come to a resolution that is acceptable to both parties. However this in no way suggests that if one side of a debate is...merely disagreed with by another party that they should abandon their own viewpoints in favor of avoiding conflict.

Conflict is part of the core point and mechanic of this game. Stated rather clearly in the Players Guide if I'm not mistaken.

If Kern wishes there to be no conflict, then he needs to change the nature of the game.

Telling people not to argue with you, to "accept" that others disagree with them by not arguing with anyone who disagrees with you...doesn't seem at all like it exists in the spirit of the game. The spirit of the game is debate.

The Tei'kaliath way is that of debate and argument, may the side that gets the most votes win.

Again, if this is something that Kern feels should change, it can only actually come from a change in the games overall mechanics.

No amount of internet yelling via all-caps will change that the nature of people is to hold onto their opinion unless sufficient counter points are made to make them re-think whether their opinion is correct. You can't just tell someone their wrong, or that you disagree with them, and expect them to abandon what they believe in. If you want to change someone's mind you have to do it with calm, logical and thought out debate, maintaining a respect for you're opponent while doing so.

This does also apply to you 3Power. I respect you're opinions and you're enthusiasm in which you hold to them, but you do have a tendency to lose your sense of respect for others at times in your posts. Bluntness is not a crime, but it does make for sour moods in debate. Just look at Drakus' response. All caps, obvious anger and frustration; posts like that are encouraged when the person in question isn't treated like an equal and comrade in the debate.

The end point of this discussion that I think we should be striving to understand is that despite the fact that we argue and debate to come to our actions in the comic, we are all essentially still comrades. Part of the same community.

Yes there are factions here. Yes there are people who disagree on what actions should be taken. This is not a bad thing. This is the nature of the Tei'kaliath.

In regards to An'jhali, she, in game, should be made to understand that our debates and arguments are natural, part of who we are as a Clan. Trey'la's oath is not a promise that we will never argue, it is a promise that our arguments will not result in the Clan, in-comic, coming to blows with one another. An'jhali needs to have her fears put to rest. This still is not a redundant nor useless action in my opinion. Saying that change needs to come from within does not make much sense to me, for I do not see that any real changes need to be made in the community beyond people simply not allowing their negative emotions affect how they go about debating their ideas.

Respect one another. Disagree and debate till your heart's content, but do not post in anger or frustration. If you feel angry or frustrated; take a walk. Go hit a pillow. Hop on an exercise bike. Eat some ice cream. Watch an episode of Scrubs. Do whatever it takes to get out those feelings before you put finger to keyboard.

This is really the only way I can think of that can help an internet community like this. There really isn't any other method that comes to mind that can enforce unity. Forgive me saying this, but having absolute peace and agreement between everyone on an internet forum is a pipe dream. At best we can argue and debate with each other in a friendly manner; allowing in the end the votes to fall where they may with no hard feelings. And even that I know is kind of an idealistic concept. But its the best notion I got for now.
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby thealbinobutterfly on Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:17 pm

guys, chill. seriously. go take a walk or something. we're arguing about shit. literal mounds of shit that has nothing to do with anything.

okok, the original thing about this thread is talking about LA advices. it's turned into 3 power bitching about her advice. i vote 3power stops being a drama queen and we go back to the original intent.

HOW CAN WE FIX THE COMMUNITY:

apparently, talancir says we're like a leaky boat, how can we fix out leaky boat. hmm.

1) stop bitching.

2) accept responsibility for your bad and good ideas. say "yes i did it."

3) LEARN. maybe if you do something that isn't good, or you see buddy do something that isn't good, don't do it? just a thought.

4) ASK

5) IF YOU DON'T GET THE ANSWER YOU DON'T WANT, GUESS WHAT? IT'S PROBABLY NOT A GOOD IDEA. see #1 for what to do in case of this event.
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby thatguyvex on Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:27 pm

Sensible enough, if a little on the unfortunately frustrated side. But if I may...

1) stop bitching.


This requires that "bitching" be clearly defined. The term itself is muddled by being vague by nature. Anything, including your own post, could be possibly defined as "bitching". To simply tell people to stop "bitching" what exactly do you mean? Where it in your power, Xenon, which posts would you count in that category? And would that be a category that everyone on the site could agree with? This is the inhering problem in simply telling people to stop "bitching", as no one will universally agree on whether or not a particular post falls under that definition or not.

2) accept responsibility for your bad and good ideas. say "yes i did it."


An agreeable concept, but it has the same problem as above in which it is difficult to difine what counts as a good idea or a bad idea. Is an idea bad simply because someone says it is? Is an idea good simply because two or three people agree with it? There is no clear definition of "good" or "bad" when it comes to ideas, that's why debates like this exist in the first place; to figure out which ideas have the most support and to refine their components until the majority can agree on whether it is good or bad. In which case I do agree with you that a person should not be reckless and try to force their idea forward until such debate has reached a conclusion of some sort, and accept responsibility if they act hastily.

3) LEARN. maybe if you do something that isn't good, or you see buddy do something that isn't good, don't do it? just a thought.


Easy enough to say that people to learn, but again it comes down to defining what is or isn't a good idea and hence what needs to be learned. It takes more than simple disagreement or a differing opinion to make an idea a bad one. Its not as clear cut as a black and white scenario of learning from obviously bad actions and supporting obviously good ones. People should of course take the time to think about their ideas and the counter points people bring up about their ideas. To tell people to simply learn suggests that one already has an idea of what the lesson is; but do we? Before one can learn it still requires defining what is or isn't "good", which can only happen through debate anyway.

4) ASK


Now here you and I are in complete agreement. An idea cannot be defined as good or bad, it cannot be refined at all, unless it is first asked about in the community. This is something everyone should be encouraged to do. Discuss you're ideas with people, consider all feedback whether it be positive or negative, and as stated above take the time to think about the idea.

5) IF YOU DON'T GET THE ANSWER YOU DON'T WANT, GUESS WHAT? IT'S PROBABLY NOT A GOOD IDEA. see #1 for what to do in case of this event.


Here's where things get difficult, and seems to be the crux of the issue being talked about here. Is an idea bad simply because someone else disagrees with it? Not exactly, but neither should one disregard the disagreements of others. Talk with the people that hold the opposite opinion and see if you can't come to understand why they disagree with your idea. Don't dismiss them, but don't roll over either. Work together to see if you're idea cannot be refined to be agreeable. Consider all information on an equal level and try not to be biased towards your own opinion while still maintaining your self respect and not buckling merely because another doesn't agree with you. If an idea is to be defined as "not good" it should only be done so through sensible, logical, well thought out points and counter-points. Not by belittling each other or attempting to undermine the character of the person proposing the idea.

And if those who disagree with an idea find that the person proposing the idea is doing their level best to defend it, then do not become angry or frustrated, you too should think about what the other person is saying and consider whether or not your original objections were based on solid, justifiable reasoning. Do not dismiss the other sides counter points to your arguments out of hand but work to understand why the person thinks their idea is a good one, and in the end be willing to compromise as much as you want them to.
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby thealbinobutterfly on Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:43 pm

tl;dr
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby thatguyvex on Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:19 am

That's alright, I forgive you. :P
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