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Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby Talancir on Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:26 pm

I'm writing this up since it needed to be posted properly. Two Leaders' Advice options were made which involved a oath of loyalty followed by a group hug or some sort. These actions are made ostensibly to help anji feel better about the clan she's leading.

I do not believe that this oath by our characters will do any good. As seen from the news post, the problem lies clearly within the community of players, and promises by characters will do little to heal any rifts and fractures within this community. It has also been contended that making an oath is redundant because we already have a good idea where we need to start if we want to make things better: the players.

Truth is absolute, and true action speaks for itself. It's the people that make it subjective. We don't need oaths or promises to do something, if we're already of the right mind to do it. An'jhali is unnerved by the infighting because the players are divided. Her trust in us will be vindicated if the players set aside their petty differences and childish whatnots and work together as a clan. We don't need an oath to reinforce true action.

I would also like to dedicate this thread to listing problems with our community that we could resolve. It's been suggested that our clan functioned better with fewer Leader's Advice options being offered up every week, for example. Civil discussion please, naysayers stay out. This thread is about listing problems within our community that can be fixed, not decrying the system for what it is and looking to a distant and undefined overhaul as the cure-all.
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby Writer on Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:41 pm

You echo many of my thoughts, but the way you went about arguing with Ral in the chatbox earlier made me see that one of the problems isn't the quality and number of options. It's the debate and counter-debates around them, which polarizes people and brings about sour dispositions when they can't agree to disagree. The fear that one option will somehow manage to (irreparably or temporary) 'damage' the clan is also present, and, I think, one of the causes for this polarization process in the first place. People won't let go of the issue, because they think their option will be helpful, others won't let go because they see it as their duty to counter it.

How do you fix that? Everyone's got a right to an opinion, and the right to pursue making LA advice, and also counter-advice. The only thing I can think of is that people should... well, act nicer about it.
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby Xalgoz on Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:44 pm

Just don't vote for it, probably won't get enough anyway.
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby Talancir on Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:51 pm

this isn't merely about the vote in the LA, but also the problems endemic to the community at large that we have the power to remedy: what are they, and how could we address them?
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby 3Power on Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:18 pm

*epic facepalm*
I'm writing this up since it needed to be posted properly. Two Leaders' Advice options were made which involved a oath of loyalty followed by a group hug or some sort. These actions are made ostensibly to help anji feel better about the clan she's leading.

Of all the things to start a stupid pointless argument about, it had to be promising to be nice to one another? And it had to make it's way onto the LA?

The overall goal is to reassure anji that we're not all going to break out the swords and try to kill each other like we did in the old city.
I do not believe that this oath by our characters will do any good. As seen from the news post, the problem lies clearly within the community of players, and promises by characters will do little to heal any rifts and fractures within this community. It has also been contended that making an oath is redundant because we already have a good idea where we need to start if we want to make things better: the players.
Since when are two good mutually exclusive things redundant?

Let me summarize what you're saying right now: "We should definitely strive to work better with one another, BUT WE DEFINITELY SHOULDN'T PROMISE IT TO THE ILLHAR!"

And the point of the oath is not to repair rifts and fractures to the community, but to ensure the Illhar that even when we fight, which is something people WILL DO, it is out of a desire to see the clan succeed, and not a desire to see the clan fall.
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby Zeedr on Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:25 pm

It wasn't really an argument... It was enthusiastic debate :3
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby Finish on Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:34 pm

I guess it was a mistake to post my option. Now people started a debat and a topic about the oath.

Why not just let the votes decide? If the oath gets enough votes there will be an oath, if it doesn`t gets more than 4 votes or my suggestion gets more there will be no oath.
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby Talancir on Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:44 pm

Since when are two good mutually exclusive things redundant?

They are redundant when you don't need one to support the other. One can promise anything they want, but it's not the promise that's ultimately recognized; It is the action. Right action speaks for itself and doesn't need to be held up by promises that might not be held up in return.

Let me summarize what you're saying right now: "We should definitely strive to work better with one another, BUT WE DEFINITELY SHOULDN'T PROMISE IT TO THE ILLHAR!"

My dear Trey'la, I would encourage you not to twist the words to suit your purposes. What I said was meant to be taken at face value, not to derive some secret meaning from them. Remember that truth us truth; it's the people who make it subjective.

Of course we won't actually break out swords and fight each other, however it can be represented as such by the bickering going on between players. It can't be denied that the community is split up between factions (even though they were supposedly done away with), and though that wouldn't have been bad, there is still a lot of bad emnity, as can be evidenced by sporadic cries of Al'dun conspiracy in the past. Whether they are true or not, they are only evidence of bias against one group because another group doesn't like them.

And the point of the oath is not to repair rifts and fractures to the community, but to ensure the Illhar that even when we fight, which is something people WILL DO, it is out of a desire to see the clan succeed, and not a desire to see the clan fall.


what better way to get this done than to just do it? why would we need to make Leader's advice options and waste some perfectly good votes in order to accomplish this?

I should also like to point out that this could be construed as on-topic. talk about a problem is only good in that it leads us to a solution to a problem. There could be members of the community that only revel in the talking, not the doing. I would not like this to be the case here. Most of us recognize that there is something wrong between us; let us agree on what that is and agree to fix it.

FYI an agreement is not an oath.
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby 3Power on Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:12 pm

They are redundant when you don't need one to support the other. One can promise anything they want, but it's not the promise that's ultimately recognized; It is the action. Right action speaks for itself and doesn't need to be held up by promises that might not be held up in return.

...This is interesting in that nothing you say is wrong, but what you are doing in the end is. You are saying, essentially, that actions speak louder than words, but you are twisting that meaning to mean that words are useless. They are not.

what better way to get this done than to just do it? why would we need to make Leader's advice options and waste some perfectly good votes in order to accomplish this?
So in the end, this is just complaining about advices that were posted? Well I knew that the moment I saw the thread, but it's just so blatant right here.

Look, you're supporting the idea of making everyone in the community nicer to one another, right? So, we're promising to the illharess we're going to be nice. If you're complaining about us making a promise out of fear we might break it, aren't you already convinced that you're not going to be able to make the community nicer? It really sounds like you just want an escape route open the next time drama starts.
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby benuminister on Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:27 pm

Well Trey, nothing will happen without effort from the community. So look at it this way; one, we let the community continue to bicker and let rivalries rise which may ultimately may result in kern shutting us down or two, we admit that there is the a problem in how we conduct discussions and try to move towards a better way of doing so. Your choice really but when you respond to actions with accusations it only belittle your point.
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby 3Power on Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:38 pm

benuminister wrote:Well Trey, nothing will happen without effort from the community. So look at it this way; one, we let the community continue to bicker and let rivalries rise which may ultimately may result in kern shutting us down or two, we admit that there is the a problem in how we conduct discussions and try to move towards a better way of doing so.
Good statement, now where does any of that conflict with swearing an oath of loyalty and unity to the illhar!?

You want to make the community nicer, then make the community nicer! Nothing about this oath prevents you from doing that!

I really, really, really don't get why this is such a big deal!

I don't get why people think it needed a counter vote!

I don't get why people think it needed a thread discussing it!

I don't get why I actually need to defend it!

Pointless bickering about an action designed to ease anji's fears!

Holy sharess, PtP has no hope!

Even the people claiming they're trying to help are creating pointless arguments!
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby Talancir on Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:28 pm

Trey'la, your reply is the perfect example of why we must resolve to address the detriments to the community. Screaming about doom and gloom when you should be sitting down and discussing problems and/or solutions to problems with a degree of civility is not going to help anything.

Besides, if you really think hard about it, our loyalty to the Illhar was never in question. It's the infighting (i.e. not in opposition to An'jhali) that is. Therefore, making an oath of loyalty to An'jhali in response to our infight is not only not as helpful in its ability to help the community, but unnecessary.

3Power wrote:
They are redundant when you don't need one to support the other. One can promise anything they want, but it's not the promise that's ultimately recognized; It is the action. Right action speaks for itself and doesn't need to be held up by promises that might not be held up in return.

...This is interesting in that nothing you say is wrong, but what you are doing in the end is. You are saying, essentially, that actions speak louder than words, but you are twisting that meaning to mean that words are useless. They are not.

You didn't read my post all of the way through. you're only reading what is needed to support your accusations. If you read down a little further you would have seen the following:

talk about a problem is only good in that it leads us to a solution to a problem.

This does not mean that words is useless. This means that if the only thing we do is talk and do nothing, then it is useless. If I really believed that, then I would have never made this thread.

The point of this thread (made in the last paragraph of the OP) is to list what we feel are problems with the community that we can fix, as a requisite to appropriate action by the community as proactive, responsible people.

I for one feel that it shouldn't matter how we feel about each other. We don't have to like each other to work together.


In regard to writer's post:

Yes, everyone is entitled to opinion. We're allowed to agree and disagree, and I'm not debating that right. The trick to acting nicer is a bit more tricky. perhaps there are a lot more Leader's Advice options being put up lately because there is a significant portion of the community that feels that they are not being listened to or considered. what would be a good way to change that?

My initial thoughts on this would be to use the existing infrastructure. The ranked are there to lead their aspect of the clan. Perhaps they should also be the ones to guide, listen to, and pass on the opinions of the non-ranked?

Or, would there be some other way to make sure everyone is listened to that doesn't involve overburdening the ranked?
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby thatguyvex on Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:40 pm

I really, really, really don't get why this is such a big deal!

I don't get why people think it needed a counter vote!

I don't get why people think it needed a thread discussing it!

I don't get why I actually need to defend it!

Pointless bickering about an action designed to ease anji's fears!

Holy sharess, PtP has no hope!

Even the people claiming they're trying to help are creating pointless arguments!


I understand the frustration 3Power. For the record I don't really think the whole oath idea is a bad one in its basic theory.

After all there is a marked difference between the Forum and the Comic.

Kern himself has said himself that "What happens in the forum stays in the forum", which means the arguing and debate that occurs here in the forum, drama injected or not, shouldn't be reflected in the comic.

It is, unfortunately, but there is still a difference between how the story progresses in-comic and how the story progresses here in the forum community. So in regards to trying to put An'jhali's (in my opinion overblown and overdramatic) fears to rest, an in-comic showing of Clan unity via some kind of oath isn't a bad thing.

The thing that gets me here is that An'jhali herself is making such a big deal over such a little thing. Did Kern really think a internet forum community wasn't going to spend its days debating and arguing over stuff? Does he think if he makes An'jhali act emo enough that it'll somehow just make everyone suddenly unite and begin wholesale agreeing with one another on everything?

I haven't even spent that many years on internet forums, but I understand that part of their intrinsic nature is that people will argue and debate with each other over almost anything. That's the nature of things. Its not bad. It only becomes bad when people cease to respect one another while debating.

Anyway, point is, if enough people vote for the oath then it at least gives An'jhali an idea that her people aren't going to be slitting each other's throats in the streets. Claiming that the community needs to change is all well and good, but I can tell you now that this community will never cease to be a place where ideas and opinions aren't argued over. We don't have to stop debating in the community; that's what the community is here for. Its kinda the core mechanic of the game. But we can still, in-comic, show our NPC Illhar that its okay for us to argue; that's its normal and just part of the process.
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby Writer on Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:21 pm

3Power wrote: I really, really, really don't get why this is such a big deal!

I don't get why people think it needed a counter vote!

I don't get why people think it needed a thread discussing it!

I don't get why I actually need to defend it!

Pointless bickering about an action designed to ease anji's fears!

Holy sharess, PtP has no hope!

Even the people claiming they're trying to help are creating pointless arguments!


Hey. Calm down, please.

I know what you're trying to do with your option (you've stated it clearly enough), but I thought it a) redundant (we're all An'jhali's people anyway, and the problem isn't exactly our characters), b) reactionary (in a "let's give An'jhali kittens and cake to cheer her up" kind of way) and c) sort of tacky combined with the group hug option, as well as d) unfortunately timed. You want a lot of people in on something like that so it gets enough support to be impressive. In general, the more votes an advice option has, the better an action will be reflected in the LA, and many people are gonna vote for the Tir'ay tourney this turn, I think, so your option wouldn't have the impact it should have to affect An'jhali.

That's my opinion, which influences me to not vote for your option, and express these things. It's not about creating pointless arguments, or frustrating you. If it helps, I'm just as strongly opposed to voting on a counter-option on something I thought redundant in the first place. You gotta give me this, I'm not after your hide or anything, so please don't take anything I say personally and get upset.

Yes, everyone is entitled to opinion. We're allowed to agree and disagree, and I'm not debating that right. The trick to acting nicer is a bit more tricky. perhaps there are a lot more Leader's Advice options being put up lately because there is a significant portion of the community that feels that they are not being listened to or considered. what would be a good way to change that?

My initial thoughts on this would be to use the existing infrastructure. The ranked are there to lead their aspect of the clan. Perhaps they should also be the ones to guide, listen to, and pass on the opinions of the non-ranked?

Or, would there be some other way to make sure everyone is listened to that doesn't involve overburdening the ranked


Well, first of all, that's just speculation, innit? I don't think we have a lot of advices because people feel ignored. Or do we? Hell, I don't know, really. It's just not the feeling I've had. Some people actually tend to ignore raising their points with the rank involved before putting it up to the LA. Case in point: The bridge. The builders were gonna build it anyway (at least as far as I was concerned), but since the LA vote on it happened, and succeeded, I was given a specific deadline on it, effectively bumping it up my build order list.

Second of all, to the extent that ranked listen to people giving them feedback and opinions on their actions, they already do what you describe. Anything more would be too much, I think. The EAs are different from the LAs, after all.

Third of all, as I said, I felt it was more the debate around the various advices that grew ill will 'n such, not the number of advices.
Last edited by Writer on Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Of Oaths and Necessary Action

Postby 3Power on Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:25 pm

Trey'la, your reply is the perfect example of why we must resolve to address the detriments to the community. Screaming about doom and gloom when you should be sitting down and discussing problems and/or solutions to problems with a degree of civility is not going to help anything.
There is no problem with that advice, therefore there is no problem to discuss. I am not going to sit here and indulge someone who just likes to invent problems to fight about. I have said several times that you can both promise unity and loyalty to anji and be nicer to one another. You have implied we cannot do both but have yet to offer a valid reason why not except that being nicer is "better."

Besides, if you really think hard about it, our loyalty to the Illhar was never in question. It's the infighting (i.e. not in opposition to An'jhali) that is. Therefore, making an oath of loyalty to An'jhali in response to our infight is not only not as helpful in its ability to help the community, but unnecessary.
Except it's loyalty to the clan, and unity amongst ourselves so... yeah.
This does not mean that words is useless. This means that if the only thing we do is talk and do nothing, then it is useless. If I really believed that, then I would have never made this thread.
*facepalm*
Code: Select all
Promise and Break Promise = Bad  <- What nobody wants
Promise and keep Promise = Good <- What I want ^^
Don't Promise but do what promise would say = Good  <-what you want
Don't Promise and don't do anything = Bad

Thus the real argument is between:
Code: Select all
Promise and keep Promise = Good <- What I want ^^
Don't Promise but do what promise would say = Good  <-what you want

Both of them keep the promise, but only one makes it. So I wonder why you have a problem with the promise?
The only place the answer can lie is here:
Code: Select all
Promise and Break Promise = Bad  <- What nobody wants
Don't Promise and don't do anything = Bad

Ah here we go, if we make the promise, it would be bad, so we want to avoid responsibilities for our actions^^
I never stated I was only interested in empty words, I said several times in this thread that both using words and follow them with actions were completely compatible, which is why I don't understand why you are still so against this LA action
I mean, the only reason you could logically be against making a promise and keeping it, is if you don't want to be committed to not fighting.
ThatguyVex wrote:Words

THIS
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