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Re: Clan Philosophy

Postby Xalgoz on Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:24 am

Yathrine totally sounds like a Forgotten Realms word.
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Re: Clan Philosophy

Postby Catriana on Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:29 am

Xalgoz wrote:Yathrine totally sounds like a Forgotten Realms word.


And Sharess is a lesser goddess of Lolth, the Spider Queen(Who by the way, for those who don't know, is worshipped HEAVILY by Drow) in Forgotten Realms. *shrug*

Personally, I think it'd be cool, for statistic purposes, to say we have a religion we follow. Drow do worship and they do seem to believe in higher powers, DT drow just aren't as devout unless you're a Kyorl. Then it's fanaticism.
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Re: Clan Philosophy

Postby cat-eyes on Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:21 am

I think that being devout is rare. My character Mar'ghali is devout - that is to say, exceptionally loyal from a religious standpoint, and actually believes in the moons religion. Nasfors is also loyal, but maybe to the Ill'haress personally and not for religious reasons. So as I said earlier, the religion and the culture seem inseparable.

The word Yathrine is another AD&D Drowish word, I believe that the term was coined by Gary Gygax and simply stuck. It is not specific to the forgotten realms, but it was used there. The alternate spellings are Yathrin and Yathrinil. Kern does include it in cannon, however:

http://www.drowtales.com/worldsettingar ... =1&check=1

As for the Kyorl'solenurn, They are a different story. I believe that those light elves who swore allegiance to Sharess either did so to her person (Kyorl'solenurn) or to her crown (Duthan'vir) The Kyorl'solenurn behave as they do because they believe that Sharess will return. Or at least that is my take on it. :)

As an interesting side note the word Sharess simply means Queen in Drowish. Val'Sharess means Holy Queen (or high Queen, which is another way to say Empress) To AD&D Drow, for an Ill'haress to call herself by either title was considered arrogant in the extreme because it implies that she means to usurp Lolth. In DT there is no significance other than the bare meaning of the word, because there is no Lolth.
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Re: Clan Philosophy

Postby blackshade10 on Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:33 am

Catriana wrote:
Xalgoz wrote:Yathrine totally sounds like a Forgotten Realms word.


And Sharess is a lesser goddess of Lolth, the Spider Queen(Who by the way, for those who don't know, is worshipped HEAVILY by Drow) in Forgotten Realms. *shrug*

Personally, I think it'd be cool, for statistic purposes, to say we have a religion we follow. Drow do worship and they do seem to believe in higher powers, DT drow just aren't as devout unless you're a Kyorl. Then it's fanaticism.


Actually, with the exception of the Kyorl and some others, the Sharess religion was classified as "collapsed" some centuries ago.
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Re: Clan Philosophy

Postby Wan'drille on Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:16 am

Collapsed? I would just have seen it as implicit part of the culture: a very few person are really devout, but everyone knows about it and most people kinda believe in it and a lot of traces remains in curses, swearing, expressions, proverbs...
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Re: Clan Philosophy

Postby minalia on Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:54 am

We as a foreign clan do not base our beliefs in spiders. We never made driders in the past or anything based in fusing 2 different species to make something new. Why? Because Mariciel our smith leader had 1 hell of a suprise when she saw a drider for the first time in a other webcomic. And yes in the old comics Kern did base his original comic more into the Yathrine and all that D&D info but with the new and improved storylines he decided to make drowtales into a completely different entity so all that info about Loth is completely..non canon with the storyline of our game.
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Re: Clan Philosophy

Postby cat-eyes on Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:56 am

Yathrine just means "priestess". It is a generic term that does not specify the religion. In this case it refers to "those who follow the way of the (Moon) Godessess" ie. Vals/nobles. It is like being a shinto priest in Japan. She is there to officiate.

A real world parallel would be the Priestess-Queens of ancient Crete. They were the "Manifestations of the Goddess on Earth" and ruled the people as such. It's the whole earth-mother/goddess thing.

As for the significance here, it simply explains how these things came to be. Lady An'jhali is the ruler here. And so are the other Ill'hars/Ill'haresses. The religion is simply the cultural pretext and provides the foundation upon which the rest is built. As I have already said, the structure already exists. We are only retro-defining the foundation by deconstructing its parts. As Tlu'rath said: "It matters not...but there is little difference to my old eyes. Princesses and the Queen, Daughters and Mothers. The Sharen clan rules and there is unity among us. That is what I serve for." And so I could not have said it better. Yes there is a religion, and so? What of it? We are civilized and the old ways are upheld. That is what matters to these elves. A sort of security in a world gone mad. Something to focus on, something to ease the pain. Nothing more.

Yes, Lady An'jhali could say "I am your Holy Priestess, obey me!" But she never would. We all know what she is. And Drow women could do the whole "Bow down foolish male and kiss my feet, I am your Mistress!" but none of us would. The reason should be clear to anyone civilized, No? There is no need to explain. She commands, and we obey. She leads and we follow. It is as simple as that. Simple, elegant and very elvish.
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Re: Clan Philosophy

Postby Xalgoz on Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:06 pm

Those old worldsetting pages are riddled with non-canon material. Not saying that particular word is thus, but don't trust those pages without seeing a reference elsewhere in the new-art style comics (or chapters 9-11 which I think are still ok).
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Re: Clan Philosophy

Postby cat-eyes on Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:24 pm

I believe that they are still cannon. Kern has not said otherwise.

Most of what I said is based upon my own observations and does not take any one source and hold it over the others. I have taken my cues from the story and in that way followed cannon. Where there where holes I filled them in in the most logical way I could, unless you have any other ideas?

Kern likely had to stray from the original storyline due to copyright considerations. When Gary Gygax ran TSR, they were generous about spin-off stories and even encouraged them. But Hasbro, the current owner of TSR, is far more greedy. Kern likely had to change the story to stay off their radar. They have an army of yuppies trying to justify their jobs that would likely take down his studio in a heartbeat and demand royalties. It is an unfortunate side effect of the North American society that they have become overly litigious. Even an artist who is saluting his inspiration has to be careful or he will find a horde of bloodsucking lawyers at his door. It makes me sick, but that's the way it is. Revolution anyone? ;)
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Re: Clan Philosophy

Postby Hetros on Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:38 pm

And I return to find we are once again completely off topic o_O is the thread labeled "Clan Theology" or "Clan Religion"? No. Beliefs=/=Religion people. <is frustrated>

We are talking about a moral and philosophical code. "What we believe is right" "what boundaries are we not willing to cross" "what is GOOD" "What is STRENGTH" things like that. Not, "Where do we go when we die" not "What divine spirits inhabit this world"

>_>; yes, those things are more INTERESTING, but I'd ask that the discussion move to a thread about the clan's religion, not it's philosophy and ethics. Those kinds of things yall are discussing are more suited for the forum decisions that don't happen in the comic too much, anything we decide here is more of a course of dictates and maxims that we will use in choosing decisions for the clan.

Example:
If we decided here that the clan philosophy would be against slavery (not saying that it IS), then obviously we'd be voting to oppose actions that involve slavery.

Ultimately, this thread is about what ethical/political beliefs we want Anji to have, since she is the personification of the clan. Metaphysical/Theological beliefs have already been addressed in the comic. It's just not that good a thing.

edit: know what? starting a clan religion thread. We can discuss it there. (it'll be in the main discussion area, since it will inevitably be quite silly)
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Re: Clan Philosophy

Postby blackshade10 on Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:44 pm

Hetros wrote:And I return to find we are once again completely off topic o_O is the thread labeled "Clan Theology" or "Clan Religion"? No. Beliefs=/=Religion people. <is frustrated>

We are talking about a moral and philosophical code. "What we believe is right" "what boundaries are we not willing to cross" "what is GOOD" "What is STRENGTH" things like that. Not, "Where do we go when we die" not "What divine spirits inhabit this world"

>_>; yes, those things are more INTERESTING, but I'd ask that the discussion move to a thread about the clan's religion, not it's philosophy and ethics. Those kinds of things yall are discussing are more suited for the forum decisions that don't happen in the comic too much, anything we decide here is more of a course of dictates and maxims that we will use in choosing decisions for the clan.

Example:
If we decided here that the clan philosophy would be against slavery (not saying that it IS), then obviously we'd be voting to oppose actions that involve slavery.

Ultimately, this thread is about what beliefs we want Anji to have, since she is the personification of the clan.


Agreed, this thread has become seriously derailed.

To pull it back on topic, I bring forth our policy on tainting. I think we should adapt to the Sarghress view on it; highly discourage it but you are still a person, and as such, will be treated like everyone else with no difference. No bigotry among us, I say.
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Re: Clan Philosophy

Postby cat-eyes on Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:15 pm

Religion is also a type of philosophy. That being said, I have made no mention of spirituality. And I do not think that the sort of religious thought the Drow engage in has to do with spirituality. It is a metaphysical foundation and nothing more.

Metaphysics and epistemology are a part of all philosophy. They form the underlying basis upon which the ethical and political tenets are formed. Another category is esthetics, the philosophy of art. That did not need to be addressed and so I did not address it.

I provided a nearly complete philosophy for us to ponder. If one wishes to expand upon it, how about compiling the direction that Lady An'jhali has taken thus far and adding the opinions of her ancestors (popular vote) to our list? It similar to the ancient Chinese doctrine of legalism. It is sort like a Judge Dread sort of thing "I am the law" and that, combined with a touch of autocracy and the noblesse oblige. There is a sort of panache to it all, The Queen must be classy and honest. But her word is law. I did set a few maxims and here they are again for good measure:


1) Obedience to the crown
2) Loyalty to the crown
3) Sacredness of the person of the crown
4) Industriousness
5) Valor in pursuit of ones craft
6) Goodwill toward clan members
7) Integrity
8 ) Honesty
9) Honorable conduct

Politically, The office of Queen is sacred and only someone of Lady An'jhali's bloodline can hold it. The Queen is the supreme commander of the military and has the right to set public policy, enact and enforce laws and collect taxes.The Queen's court is the final court of appeal. The Queen has the right to appoint experts to assist in the governance of her clan and it's interests (called "ranked"). The Queen is the holder of several titles of respect, the most common of that which is used is "Ill'haress" which means something like "Godmother" in our dialect. The Queen has the right to "knight" individuals for their prowess in their chosen field of endeavor and grant special privileges as she sees fit. The Queen also has the right to revoke any such award given.


As far as tainting is concerned:

To pull it back on topic, I bring forth our policy on tainting. I think we should adapt to the Sarghress view on it; highly discourage it but you are still a person, and as such, will be treated like everyone else with no difference. No bigotry among us, I say.


According to the philosophy that I have set forward, this issue depends upon the way someone got tainted. Someone like Sne'kha would be seen as irredeemably evil (a destroyer of civilization) and killed/executed as an enemy of the Elvish people. Someone like Tirade would be forgiven and helped in any way possible, he fought hard and is still fighting and that effort demands our respect. Someone like Sylphile would be seen as pathetic and shunned (exiled). Someone like Naal'suul would be pitied but exiled/imprisoned for the good of the clan. We would be nice to her, but the danger that she represents could simply not be ignored.

Let's start from here, or we can entertain another argument (philosophy)
Last edited by cat-eyes on Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Clan Philosophy

Postby blackshade10 on Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:41 pm

Anj, the NPC, the one person who has been said multiple times to embody the clan and if killed equals the end of the game, who's personality is formed by how we vote and guide the clan. We should listen to her. Noted.

The rest just falls under "don't be a dick" on the forum. It has no real tangible benefit other than organization of thoughts and ideas. Hetros is looking to make a written guiding code that we use for our advices and actions. The religion we follow really has nothing to do with that beyond being flavor and fluff.
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Re: Clan Philosophy

Postby cat-eyes on Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:00 pm

Not quite. You are missing the point. Do you have any philosophical training? There are referents and there are conclusions drawn from them. I entertained your tainted proposal and re-presented as analyzed by "Queens" philosophy. I refer you back to it for reference. :)
Last edited by cat-eyes on Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Clan Philosophy

Postby blackshade10 on Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:03 pm

Philisophical training? Of a sort. None of your business I'm afraid.

I fail to see how this "right of the queens" idea helps us. Flavorful, yes, but when it comes down to simplifaction, I've yet to be impressed with any progress it has made beyond complicating the issue.

To edit in reply to your edit, it sounds reasonable but it's all very micro. Someone like Senhka? What are the odds of us getting someone like that? No player would be like that, as it would go directly against the game mechanic. Same for the Syphile example. Both entail independent action, which players do not get.
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