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Our Land

Postby Bamawing on Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:06 am

It's driving me plum loco. I start this thread as an offspring of the "what do do with Dva lands" thread... this topic focuses more on the cavern itself.

The only reason we thought we "owned" the cavern is a Val clan told us we did (the Nals, I can't remember what day). Now the biggest reason we don't think we own the cavern is a Val clan is telling us we don't. I'm not sure what makes me crazier: the fact that we don't know what we own or the fact that we're letting the val clans tell us what we do and don't own.

We need to decide for ourselves what we do and do not (should or should not?) own, and then worry with defense. I have my own opinions regarding that, too.

(Yes, yes, I have mad skillz of copy-paste.)

So, this is what I think we ought to own. Or do own. Or whatever.

1. Ther'avere itself
2. The culture pools and mushroom trees that have already been built.
3. The mine. Reason: we bought that sonofabitch.
4. The exit to the surface. Reason a: The merchants who use it believe it to be ours. Reason b: We have actively defended it. Whether it was ours or not before, it is ours now.
5. The banks of the river that we currently fish. Reason: I'm a freaky American who doesn't quite grasp the idea of someone owning an entire river. I have heard it's done in England.
6. The land around retired rich person's house. Reason: this person asked *us* to build there, knowing it was a safe area. To me, that implies this person accepts our ownership of this land, and probably expects us to defend it from any large external threat.
7. By extension, the valley between Ther, the mine, and the rich person's house. Reason: what, we're supposed to have little pockets of land?

This is one of the two major reasons I believe that Cheleans should be housed OUTSIDE of Ther. It's not a case of overstretching ourselves... we already own and would defend this land. (The second reason is that Ther should be reserved for clan members, not vassals.)

Ok, open for discussion!
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Re: Our Land

Postby Xalgoz on Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:45 am

I say we *control* the whole cavern, unless someone more powerful than us can prove otherwise. If the Sharen or Nal Sarkoth or another Great Clan want to put an outpost or use a resource, we can't stop it. We can stop anyone else. Chel doesn't really honor the concept of ownership, just control. It's said by humans that possession is 9/10ths of the law, in Chel it's 10/10ths (drow hate maths).

What has been made very clear is that we cannot restrict access *through* our cavern, without upsetting a lot of powerful clans that we can't deal with militarily.
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Re: Our Land

Postby Timotheus on Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:57 pm

Just to add to that last point even the Sargress have not sealed off access to their cavern, and if anyone would or could it would be them. All connected caverns are considered part of greater Chel and under the Empress's rule. The clans hold sway over certain regions within that area based on their size and power, they occupy a region by right of tradition and strength but they do not own it, it all belongs to the Empress as a representative of Sharon. What is built on a site is owned by the builder, but if it can't be relocated if the site is lost, too bad.

We occupy the cavern. Everything we build in the cavern is ours. Everything we put a wall around and say is ours is ours as long as someone else doesn't have the clout to say otherwise. We had the clout to say the exit was ours, so it is. We can say the river bank is ours and hopefully keep everyone away but it's doubtful. We CAN keep the mine entrance and Ther'avare safe so we can claim those as ours. A road establishes limits of access to the cavern while allowing free travel so that may also help establish our claim. But we will never own the cavern in the eyes of Chel and it's leaders, we can only be its occupants.
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Re: Our Land

Postby Hetros on Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:56 pm

You know... I've been wondering that. Are we SURE that's the sarg's cavern? The maps we have would suggest our mines are FAR more extensive than they appear to be if this is actually the case (and maybe we should do some prospecting to see if we can expand the mine and get some different types of ore? I'll suggest it in the mining thread)

Anyway. Completely agree with you Bama. We need to put the housing outside (preferably in the area between our place and Chel, but maybe some stuff on the other side as well? Farmers on one side and everybody else on the other?)

Now, what's bugging ME is that our map clearly states it the NORTH of the cavern.

That means there's a southern part of the cavern doesn't it? Past the river? O_o

anyway, if it's on our map it clearly is owned by us in my opinion, we just have to plunk down proof of it ^^
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Re: Our Land

Postby Kitab Al'Ibar on Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:04 pm

That is the Sarg cavern, it was confirmed as part of a Scout action I undertook while I was SiC under Kir'ima.

The title on the map is the same as when we first arrived at the cavern Het. Consider that map fully explored apart from the ruins awaiting excavation. Compare it to the other maps and you will see that the shapes and river course match up. The map was originally Partial, but has been completed, also, we are approximately North East of the Chel Cavern, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.
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Re: Our Land

Postby Ein'keos on Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:09 pm

Hetros wrote:Now, what's bugging ME is that our map clearly states it the NORTH of the cavern.

That means there's a southern part of the cavern doesn't it? Past the river? O_o

anyway, if it's on our map it clearly is owned by us in my opinion, we just have to plunk down proof of it ^^


No, it's just the Northern Cavern because it's a cavern in the North part of Chel. We've explored it all.
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Re: Our Land

Postby Wan'drille on Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:36 am

Just to clarify something,
On day 47, "The Nal'Sarkoth aknowledge Ther'Avare ownership to the Tei'kaliath".

Ther, not the cavern.
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Re: Our Land

Postby Nasfors on Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:37 pm

It is really simpler than people make it out to be. The two Val clans tell us how they see it from within the way they usually operate.

The Nal'sarkoth are happy to have a friendly neighbor whom they can use (and profit from!), so to them, it is in their favor for us to own the land.

The Sharen make their living (and have for many years) by keeping everyone else down; dependent upon them for scraps. I can imagine them saying to everyone whom they visit, "can you really defend what you've claimed?" It is their method of control, plain and simple. The second they said that in the LA I wrote it off as Sharen Propaganda.
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Re: Our Land

Postby Xalgoz on Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:50 pm

They also have a practical interest in maintaining the claim that no one truly "owns" any of the territory they control, it all belongs to the Val'Sharess, and by extension, them; much in the same way feudal kings claimed ultimate ownership of all land even those controlled by vassals.
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Re: Our Land

Postby minalia on Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:46 pm

The thing is that once the cold war in the Chels becomes a blazing hot one, every clan caught in this war will lose a huge amount of soldiers and be in a weakened condition allowing smaller clans who managed to keep their forces intact will be in a far better position then they are right now. If the Vel Sharens use the same tactics they did to the Val Sharens of Divas time..Chel is gonna be turned into a hellish inferno and we get to be spectators watching a 200k populated city burining itself out litteraly.

This means that our clan being far away will be in a better position to take lands from clans that can barely keep their own people safe like for exemple the Dutanvir were wiped out because most of their forces were destroyed in a stupid prideful stunt in the nidrack war 16 years ago. A lot of small clans will be in their exact position, their forces will be shattered and most of their people will become drooling demonic monsters while the other half is barricaded in their homes like the ancestorrs of the Suls did before they had no choice but to flee their lands to join Diva's people in one of the chapters in the main comic. Do not be suprised if some of the smaller clans in a desperate move find refuge in our cavern because their lands become completely overun with demonic nethergates and roamind demons.

If we have to deal with refugee clans coming out from Chel we gonna have to make 1 big stand in keeping those demons from invading our lands and then deal with refugee clans stuck in our position when we first arrived in our cavern.
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Re: Our Land

Postby blackshade10 on Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:41 pm

100k, and yes, I would expect refugee's but NOT clan refugee's. If a clan is in our cavern, they are more likely to try and take Ther away from us and set up base there instead of asking for help. We are in a low-population area of Chel, but can expect the high population part of the city to flee to our part of town, and most, if not all, will be civilians.
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Re: Our Land

Postby Hetros on Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:22 pm

Image

details in the architect thread.
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