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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Whizzard on Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:10 am

Then we should hire landmanagers, like the one of Ariel's that help to manage the land. And don't speak of "we don't have ada to do that", we already know that ffs. We'll think of something, don't worry about it.

We should tax fishing as it's in our interest to keep it from contaminated and fished empty, we can't ban fishing outright as river is everyone's property. In fact it heads straight into Chel, that's another reason why we should keep it uncontaminated. And don't we already have water system in Ther, pumps and all that, so why do we need a canal?
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby BlackFulcrum on Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:40 am

Ascaladar wrote:Rather we should allow a number of civilians to settle areas close to the fortress and other then that, concentrate on keeping the roads into the cavern open. I do not think that we should force people to swear allegiance to our clan, but rather encourage them. For example they can live and work free and will only get slightly taxed but if they want to set up a business, or want to build a permanent residence, then they need our approval.

There are also challenges coming with this, because we would have to act a bit like a government to the civilians and oversee everything. Otherwise we will have people stealing food, illegal mining, contaminating the river, begging and thieving.

Keeping watch over this is NOT a warrior job. There is a very important difference between a police force and an army. Keeping the peace requires a lot more then just punishing everyone who gets in our way, otherwise we only appear as bullies and create more problems then we solve.

You can't ask civilians to swear allegiance to the clan, no one does that, the clan who collects protects the area, and thus collects the taxes changes to often for any civilian to want to do that, you can see that in Ariels lands, those were once Sharen lands, do you think that the civilians there did anything to support the Sharen, no, they don't care who runs the place, as long as it is safe and secure.

Also it doesn't mean that the victor always takes the lands, just see our little debacle with the old Vei Visa lands that the Svart wanted to share with us, the Nal eventually took that.
And other, hypothetical, example would be, that the Dvara'ka manage some lands far away from us, if we defeat them, it won't be us that takes them, because it's too far away.

Once we finally start getting substantial amounts of civilians in our area, expect other clans to show up, and muscle in for the profit of the taxes.
At first they won't care, there aren't enough civilians to make it worth the effort to police the area, plus the initial group of people are probably ones that don't have much money anyway, but once that grows, it will become interesting for them, and that's when we have to be able to throw out other clans, even if they are of the great nine, who's warriors come to muscle in on our territory, no civilian will pay tax twice, and they'll pay the one who has the strongest control over the area, because they will best ability to stop the crime there.

And collecting tax, and policing the area, is a warrior job, you've seen it in MA, and in PTP, Beldrobbaen warriors, Sarghress warriors, those are the ones that do that, not some police force, or tax collectors, it's a warrior job.

Whizzard wrote:Then we should hire landmanagers, like the one of Ariel's that help to manage the land. And don't speak of "we don't have ada to do that", we already know that ffs. We'll think of something, don't worry about it.

We should tax fishing as it's in our interest to keep it from contaminated and fished empty, we can't ban fishing outright as river is everyone's property. In fact it heads straight into Chel, that's another reason why we should keep it uncontaminated. And don't we already have water system in Ther, pumps and all that, so why do we need a canal?

I don't think we need to hire landmanagers, Niede, Ariel's Landmanager, told her it was his task to manage them, till she was old enough to do it herself, and he would teach her how, so talking technicalities, for the civilians living in our area An'jhali would be their land manager, while those below her enforce it, so the only who would keep the books would be Anjhi herself, or someone appointed by her, not someone we pull in from the outside, tho letting Anjhi do it herself might give her something more to do, you know make her feel like she's part of the system.

Also I don't think you can tax fishing, that seems a bit silly, I've seen people in this topic wanting to tax a lot of things, while the Chellian norm seems to be to tax protection, and trade, and nothing more, if you tax too much people won't come.
What you can do is encourage people to use more sustainable ways of fishing, like our culture pools.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Thaluka2 on Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:20 am

Also if we get enough money in taxes off the civilians we might be able to purchase food from them rather than gathering it ourselves. Meaning we won't have to build and guard culture pools and the river, the civilians will gather those resources and we'll buy them with a portion of the taxes we get. Yes it's buying our "own" resources but we'd really be paying for the labor mostly, to not have to mess with it ourselves.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Catriana on Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:52 am

You need to be able to sustain yourself in case you have to lock yourself in your fortress. Those culture pools and what have you are important. Furthermore, we're already depending on them to provide us with money (taxes), we should keep it at that.

For those discussing taxes: Has anyone tried to figure out if we would have control over something as micro as specific taxes? Because if not, we should just assume that the macro situation would be that we go into town and collect taxes when taxes are due. Getting into specifics isn't going to work here because it's just too micro. They come, they build, we police, we tax, we pick up tax. Making it any more complicated than that is just an unnecessary headache unless Kern determines that we're going to do it that way (and I doubt he will).

Even if we took the deal today, it would take the settlers some time to build their homes and shops. While they are doing that, we will continue to do what we need to to fortify our home. Nothing is ever going to come to us at the 'right' or 'convenient' time.

We need the income from this. It is what gets the clan their money. I am assuming that since the deal is being made with the Sharen that that area will be considered ours, just like how the Nals 'bought out' the Vei Visa land. It appears that if a Clan actually owns that land that they're protecting (or it is recognized as being their territory), other clans aren't going to bully their way in. If the land is unclaimed, that seems to be a different story.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Ein'keos on Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:12 pm

Well, all of the other clans use their warriors as a police force, and Rhinnelos certainly seemed to think it an appropriate task for them. Give them a little credit, i'm sure they won't come off as anything less than legitimate peace keepers if we have the right rules in place.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Bamawing on Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:31 pm

OK, here are my ideas. :)

I think we should bill this as a middle-class, somewhat self-sufficient area all its own, with housing and businesses alike.

"TK Town" (unimaginative working title FTW) would be close but not too close, and between us and Chel. We could build some houses/stalls and charge an extra one-time purchasing fee, or let Chelians build on predetermined sets of land (for a smaller one-time purchasing fee, perhaps). After that we could tax them weekly/monthly/however.

Image

I probably made the culture pool too big. It's there to keep them out of our river. We stock the thing once, hire a Chelian to manage it, and take a cut of the profits. This is probably one of the very few ways we can hire a Chelian without coughing up actual ada.

We can have a restaurant there if we like, and/or a healer's station a little closer to home.

And a spa, just because I'm not letting that idea drop. }:3 With bees as a mascot.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby blackshade10 on Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:40 pm

I like the stalls idea. We could rent them out daily.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Finish on Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:01 pm

Great work, Bamawing. :) Build a restaurant there and a healing station would increase the living quality and give us some good Ada.
Offer to build houses for the people for some Ada doesn't sounds bad either. But I guess most commoners don't have that much money.
Perhaps it's better to build some flats and charge a rent.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Whizzard on Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:39 pm

Not only stalls but I want Xenon's houseshops/shophouses there. *bigsmile*
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Catriana on Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:49 am

I really like the idea of a culture pool being made so that they stay outta our river. Like, this brings me happiness.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby blackshade10 on Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:02 am

This is why I like having an outside neighborhood. We can clearly state that if people don't have the resources to build a house, we can make them one for a price or rent one out.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby thealbinobutterfly on Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:46 am

the only thing i don't like is:

the public culture pool shouldn't go so far without a bridge or something, we're cutting off a route.

However...

If we DO expand it, and build a bridge, we're cutting off a route and have created a bridge we can monitor, as well as making it harder for enemy forces to get to us.

the second part i don't like is how far the housing is. My primary concern remains that we're going to spread ourselves too thin at first. We should move the tk built houses closer to ther'avare for now. (or within! still gunning for that, doods.)
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Finish on Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:02 pm

They houses aren't that far away, just below the cliff. :) If we build a ramp from the houses to Ther we could be in settlement
very soon and wouldn't spread to much. If we take Bamawings map as basic this ramp could also be part of the road to Ther
and the surface. :) It wouldn't be a big detour like a bridge and if we fortiy the upper end of the ramp against attacks I don't
think it would be a security issue. :)
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Bamawing on Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:23 pm

I'm not sure why you want the route there... I intentionally made the pool large to cut "them durn foreigners" off from our river and Tiktiki pen. But if we want to keep that pathway open, all we have to do is not build the pool so big. Cheaper all the way around. (I do love bridges though... so I'm willing to compromise on that one.)

I have mental images of large basket-elevators going up and down the cliff. But I think that's just me being silly.
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Re: Resettling Chellians

Postby Timotheus on Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:19 pm

Lacking any accurate topographical maps of the cavern, the low road route is the most practical for getting from Chel to the upper world exit. It will almost by defacto be the main artery unless we want to spend an inordinate amount of labor in cutting and building a ramped route closer to Theravare. A switch backed route up the bluff face in a direct line from the mine to Theravare (if it doesn't already exist) would be a good idea, about two people wide, and a hoisting crane site would be an excellent idea as well. But a wide, level road around the bluff end by the river seems a necessity for commerce and will have to be part of the plan. The lower culture pool can however fill the gap between it and the tiktikki hills for defense purposes and the road itself can be blocked rather easily there if neccessary.

The lower culture pool could start out as the next quarry site for the road and walls project. With the mana drills it shouldn't be that hard to break open the initial pit and then its a matter of working the sides to expand it since we're mostly dealing with gravel and loose rubble and not fitted stone. By having the culture pool laid out in advance it can be excavated according to plan, leaving access causeways in place with bridges and flood gates pre-installed. The pools themselves can extend nearly back to the river, adding further protection from infiltration through tiktikki valley, amd appropriate feed and drain channels from the river can also be nearly completed at this time with appropriate bridging for cross access as needed.
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