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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Thalar on Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:13 pm

Make no mistake - the Svartelos deal includes going to war. The Svartelos stated they wanted half the loot for their information. We won't get loot if we don't go to war. Taking the Svartelos information without going to war on the Dvara'ka would be yet another betrayal.
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Catriana on Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:24 pm

As for Dvars being clumsy... I still se it like - "They had opportunity to bury our troops alive. They did not use it. Ergo the were mercyful on us."

That makes absolutely no sense. It is not being merciful at all, if anything it would be foolish. Why would you close a cavern on your own people to 'spare' the enemy? I simply don't see it. This isn't some overly powerful clan, they're a minor clan just like we are.

What's the best way to harass a clan that doesn't support the Sarghs? Well, you can go to their exit where you know they have merchants go through and that they deal with, cause a fuss and then close that exit that is beneficial to them. That's just the way I'm seeing it.

Why do people believe that these major clans care about minor clan squabbles? The Sargh'ress clan is probably not even looking at us as any sort of anything right now. They have their own issues to worry about and a major war they need to be preparing for.

Short of barging their fortress or outright attacking Sarghress troops, I don't forsee them seriously getting involved with anything we do.
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Exate on Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:26 am

I am inclined to think that the Svartelos deal is just too lopsided in their favor to take. If we want nothing more than information on where the Dvara'ka live, we can release our captives and have the scouts stalk them home. They can then gather further information with stealthy lurking around wherever they are led to, although there is obviously a certain level of risk involved in that.

Regardless, we can afford to let the issue sit for a few more turns while we get more training and throw ourselves at the current massive renovation of our defenses. If we can gather more information on our own, too, it'll just be a bonus. Moving aggressively now, particularly with this high of a price tag, seems premature.
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Wan'drille on Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:37 pm

Mh, I'm sorry if that have been brought up before but.
Wouldn't send our scout be risky?
If they lives in tunnels, it may be quite easy for them to detect intruders, due to a limited number of entrance to check.
If spoted, our scout could not be able to retreat safely: if the 'east tunnels' are kind of a maze, our opponent would have advantage (but that's assuming their territory look like a maze)
If our scout were spotted, the Dvara'ka would be aware of the 'attentions' we have toward them (well, they already are, but that would kinda alarm them)

Svart's deal on the other hand consist to directly guide us to their main base, without further potentialy dangerous and hazardous scouting. That is valuable (I still think 1/2 of the loot is too much).

Voilà. Just a few points
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby waffleferret on Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:22 am

Thalar wrote:Make no mistake - the Svartelos deal includes going to war. The Svartelos stated they wanted half the loot for their information. We won't get loot if we don't go to war. Taking the Svartelos information without going to war on the Dvara'ka would be yet another betrayal.


thier information is waaaaaaaaay tooo pricey XD
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Exate on Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:04 am

Wan'drille wrote:Wouldn't send our scout be risky?
Conceded that it's not without risk. That said, if we're actually planning some sort of attack, the whole operation is going to be risky; as you point out, we'd be hitting the enemy on their home ground, which they know far better than we do. They could have all kinds of eyes in place, traps planned, and so forth- and there's no guarantee that the Svartelos would be familiar with those. Heck, there's no guarantee that they actually know where all the Dvara'ka bases are; they might just think that they do, or are willing to claim so to us to maximize profits.

So sure, it's a gamble to do things ourselves, but the Svartelos price seems pretty high and messing around with any other clan is a gamble in the first place. If nothing else, sending out scouts and having them utterly thrashed would tell us that it's probably a bad idea to send in the whole army and expect them to do better.
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Ein'keos on Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:15 pm

Is it really that high? We were prepared to pay them 100 ada straight up for the information. This way we know they'll give us useful information, their cut will likely be less then 100 ada, and we can do things like raid their outposts and the exits they toll. If we followed them to their base we'd have to attack it right off the bat and wouldn't have a chance to weaken them with unexpected raids. We don't really know what we're dealing with yet so just attacking the main base is foolish. Don't be a Dutan'vir.
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby minalia on Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:17 pm

If we win the war against the dva. What do we keep the half the loot and their fortess city? Who will manage those lands since we are gonna do a genocide type of war?
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Finish on Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:31 pm

minalia wrote:If we win the war against the dva. What do we keep the half the loot and their fortess city? Who will manage those lands since we are gonna do a genocide type of war?


The first If is not if we win or not, it's IF we start a war or not. ;)

Depends if the fortress would could as part of the loot or not. If we keep it... well best thing would be to sell the location to some other Clan who would like to have an outpost there.

Also I'm not sure if we are killing all off them. If things are worse for them they maybe surrender and even if not I guess we'll get some prisoners (from which the Svart probabbly would want a half, too.)
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Ein'keos on Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:37 pm

If we won it'd be in our interest to keep it's location secret. It's primary advantage it that it's a secret, hidden away fort. If we wanted to sell it we'd have to release it's location to potential buyers and in so doing wreck it's main asset.
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Madea on Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:11 pm

First, the Svart deal is pricey because the deal isn't just "we help you and you pay us this". It's "we help you, you pay us, and we'll start talking to you again". This is a make-up present, basically. Needless to say, we should still try to haggle them down, but all the same, they're asking more than normal because we're making up for screwing them on our last deal.


As for the Dvara'ka lands, we don't have nearly the manpower to take them over and use them. So, we need to strip them of all usable goods; if we can "sell" them to someone, fine, or we can leave them alone and every so often sweep through all of the holdings and clear out anyone that's squatting, essentially "farming" it for slaves to sell.

Again, their fortress location is not a secret, it's just not well-known. There is a difference.
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Bamawing on Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:39 pm

Um. We already have the info that the Svarts were going to give us. We got that from our prisoner.

I dunno. The clan as a whole has such intense mixed feelings about the Svarts that I'm not sure we should bother trying to improve our relationship with them.

Seriously. They used us (Vei Visa attack) and we used them (we became known as a clan). I figure we're even. People seem to have forgotten the WHOLE REASON we lost that deal in the first place. It wasn't really the Nals screwing us... the only reason we even went to the Nals was we didn't trust the Svarts. And we do now... why?

I was all for repairing our relationship with them at first... more for Anj'hali than anything else. Now that she has accepted their aloofness, I think we ought to leave it alone.

P.S. if anyone else snubbed our Ill'haress the way the Svarts just did, we would be calling for blood.

Now the other rant of mine. If the Sarghs really were worried about us, we would be dead already. What's easier, coercing a small, semi-loyal clan to pester us, or send out a squad on wolves to smash the problem? We could be gone in a Sargh training exercise. There isn't any conspiracy here.

And before you even say it, since when does Quain really care what... well, anyone... thinks?
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Madea on Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:23 pm

Information given under duress isn't exactly valid information, not to mention he gave us very, very little. He only gave information of the outpost he was assigned to - his "home" - and not all of their outposts nor the location of their main fortress. In otherwords, we have nothing. And we have to pass through either Sarghress or Beldrobbaen territory to get there. Guess which one is going to cost us to get through?


As for the rest of it, it's all perspective. But I don't think that's an entirely accurate assessment of what happened.

They didn't use us so much as we agreed to something of unclear terms. Yes, we felt taken advantage of because of the fallout we had to face, but we were well compensated for that and such is the political nature of Chel: You make some people happy and piss some people off with everything you do. You can't win with everyone. Had we ceased contact with them there, I would agree that we were even. But then we started going into a joint venture with them. But we went to the Nal's not because we didn't trust the Svarts, but because the Nal's said the Svarts were shifty and asked us to report to them. When we *did* report to them, they took over the land we were going to jointly acquire, snubbing us both.

Again, as I've said a hundred times, trust is something we will never have with another Clan because you don't trust other drow. You can't. It's not how they work and not how we should work, and when you work with someone you don't trust, you simply engage in bargains that are mutually beneficial and not dependent. If we ever rely wholly on someone else for something, then that is leverage they can use against us, but there's no reason we shouldn't patch up with the Svarts.

If people keep trying to be friends and looking for other clans we can have "trusting relationships" with, this is going to be a long, hard and frustrating game for all of us. The sooner we get those ideas out of our play, the better.
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