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Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Lt Anders on Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:53 pm

As the title says, discuss.

Please don't post LA options up just yet! Lets discuss before we stick our foot in our mouth.

Also, something other than a yea, or nay? Bring it up!

Here's a fiendishly devil plan: Don't take the Svart deal, go to the Dvarka and ally with them, Take down Svarts. All the Svart bashers will get there final peace XD
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Finish on Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:40 pm

First of all lets see how reasonable the Dvara'ka are. If we relase our prisoners with a message that they have nothing to fear if they stay away from our cavern
and the accpet we don't have to pay the Svart and don't go to war.
If they ignore this or continue to be a pay in the ass - like by setting up another post in the next cavern - we should do our own researches for those guys.
We are successful we maybe can even sell there position to other Clans if they don't know the location.
If we fail - lets pay the Svart. :)

Anyway our scouts should check out the eastern tunnels to see what's there. :)
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby FSEffect on Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:44 pm

No. Releasing anyone to send a message is a bad idea. They'll know the layout of the cavern and can relay intel to their troops.
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Lt Anders on Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:47 pm

Finish wrote:First of all lets see how reasonable the Dvara'ka are. If we relase our prisoners with a message that they have nothing to fear if they stay away from our cavern
and the accpet we don't have to pay the Svart and don't go to war.
If they ignore this or continue to be a pay in the ass - like by setting up another post in the next cavern - we should do our own researches for those guys.
We are successful we maybe can even sell there position to other Clans if they don't know the location.
If we fail - lets pay the Svart. :)

Anyway our scouts should check out the eastern tunnels to see what's there. :)


Ah, but here's the problem. We can't do both.

We either try to talk to Dva, and not declare war, and thus lose our surprise factor, or we can not talk and just march their straight away gaining a significant surprise bonus while their army is busy "tolling" chel. The last time we tried to do both sides, we lost the deal, and the ally...(the Nal Fiasco)
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Pariel on Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:48 pm

Heh, as always reluctant to deal with svarts. I can understand certain considerations, but heck man! We fumbled an alliance for this very reason! If we pry on ourselves, we risk fumbling it again.

Depleting diplomatic ways is a must if we're to have some justification in whacking them silly. No use to say "They were whacked for fun, pillage and giggles." . But other than that, I think we should give concessions to the Svart deal.

Researching on our own too blatantly will make us even more untrustworthy, maybe they would think we are trying to sell the Svarts to the Dvaraka, have you thought of the paranoia fuel asking too much can produce?

We can (and should) delay this until we get the diplomatics all depleted, but other than that - I'm willing to give them a go for the info.

We've yet to repay the broken deal with them. Show em we can profit. By doing it on our own, we might just worsen the situation. The ambassator declared a temporal alliance, meaning the alliance we once did is broken :/.

Edit: I think we should comment the Svarts that we wish to deplete "diplomatic ways first" and ask if it's acceptable for them. The surprise factor won't be lost as they would not be mentioned we can get to know their location. Why not rely the Illhar'dro a message? They should be nice enough messengers.
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Whizzard on Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:11 pm

Main reason why not take the deal:
We can't win, our warriors don't have any mana training at all while theirs have.

Second reason:
We can probably find out where they are by ourselves.
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Catriana on Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:16 pm

They're swindlers and so we should ally with them instead of the Svarts?

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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Finish on Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:08 pm

FSEffect wrote:No. Releasing anyone to send a message is a bad idea. They'll know the layout of the cavern and can relay intel to their troops.


I think those two had other things in mind instead of trying to memorize the area. Also if Dvara'ka already set up a post in our cavern they probably know the layout - plus they are living outside of Chel and that quiet a while longer than we. They probably know not only our cavern but the whole area surronding Chel.

Lt Anders wrote:Ah, but here's the problem. We can't do both.

We either try to talk to Dva, and not declare war, and thus lose our surprise factor, or we can not talk and just march their straight away gaining a significant surprise bonus while their army is busy "tolling" chel. The last time we tried to do both sides, we lost the deal, and the ally...(the Nal Fiasco)


True we waited to long AND talked with the wrong people because we didn't want to make a fast decision. However, I think we should reject the offer for now. If it's no longer avaliable later - our bad. I think waiting a few days for the response of the Dvaraka and to scout the eastern cavern wouldn't hurt. Because if we accept the Svart offer that means war and I perfer it if we can avoid this.
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby minalia on Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:22 pm

Can someone tell me why do we even consider the idea of wiping out a clan that is affiliated to the sarg to be a good idea? They have mages and warriors with mana shields. Most likely they have more warriors then we do and the experience of their tunnels we have not explored will be used against us. We could send scouts to map the entire layout of the eastern tunnel system so we might learn if there is any ressources to be exploited and maybe find that hideout of the Dva without swart assistance.
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Kitab Al'Ibar on Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:14 pm

The way I see it, this has potential, but we arn't ready for it quite yet.

Positives
- Knowledge is Power: With the advantage of knowledge we will be able to strike quickly and choose our targets.
- Divide and Conquer. The Dvara'ka are spread out, they hold several toll booths, if we stagger our attacks we can bleed the Dvara'ka at minimal cost to ourselves, they will either peel defenders from their main city and thus weaken it, or abandon the posts. Either way, while they are unprepared we will have gained reputation with the Svarts, potentially gained support in Chel and the loot will be a bonus.
- It also means we buy time for our warriors to be trained in Mana Shields in the run up to an assault against a main base.
- Mana aside, in a one on one battle, we would likely best them through better equipment.

Negatives
- It's a risk, there will be fighting, warriors will get injured, but if we pick out battles and approach we can aim to minimise this.
- Mana, they have mana shields, the warriors do not, but given a bit of time, we will have mana shields.
- The key issue: Mages/Foci: They have at least one mage, it's best to assume they have more. Therefore mana shields may not be enough, a force will be needed that can either eliminate these targets quickly (given the staffs, they should be identifiable) or that can dispel or counter magic. The scouts can potentially do the former, but not the latter.
- Attacking the Dvara'ka may further sour relations with the Sarg.
- We do give the Svarts 50% of any loot, which is a considerable amount, but as I said, knowledge is power.

If we don't take the deal
- We potentially gain time to train our warriors, but the Dvara'ka may attack us in the mean time.
- We do not exploit the potential revenue stream of looted goods.
- Out relation with the Svarts remains unchanged or potentially worsened.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Please feel free to add you own or criticise mine, I'm just trying to weigh it up.
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby minalia on Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:20 pm

At the moment the alliance with the swarts is dead and buried. I don't see how we could make it worse.
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Si'Arnom on Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:55 pm

Like Kitab said this has potential, but with out an effective way to take out mages quickly an attack could backfire. One thing is sure, if we do chose to attack we will have to plan this carefully. Divide and Conquer indeed. That said i think time is our greatest enemy right now, although i don't think the Dvara'ka will attacks us ( the decision to collapse the tunnel was for me an indication of that, if they thought they could win they would have just retreated and came back later with reinforcements), we can lose our element of surprise.
As for the shagress, they respect strength, unless the actions of the Dvara'ka were directed by them i don't our relations with the shargress will worsen.
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Ascaladar on Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:32 pm

While I am not completely against working with the Svarts again and attacking a Clan who has proven to be hostile to us, I still think that the offer that was made to us is extremely poor.

They only offer a bit of information in exchange for half of everything we might loot and let us do the dirty work. We are not that desperate and the offer is extremely poor, so I say we should decline for the moment.
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby minalia on Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:36 pm

The way they told it to us means that the swarts think we are strong enough to crush that clan without their mercs..just information and we could win? I hardly believe that.
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Re: Svart deal: Yes, No, why?

Postby Aeryll on Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:44 pm

My answer is a resounding "NO".

Why?
There is the Ill'haress and the ambassador at the gate.
They let the Ambassador in to talk because she gives some shiny trinkets and let our Ill'haress stand outside.

I'm insulted they dare to do that to An'jhali.
Not only that. I'm furious. Because we get them let away with it aswell!
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