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Possible Subjugation

Postby benuminister on Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:55 am

Upon reading today's EA, I wondered if it were all possible, to subjugate this clan that has popped up around the exit to the surface?

It is mentioned in the wiki that most minor are either destroyed or absorbed by larger clans. And, I am guessing by their speed of set up and the weapons shown in the EA that they are a minor clan.

Now the question we need to ask is, "Why they are here?" Are they fleeing strife in the inner parts of the city? Could they be a bunch of commoners that just think they could do better on their own? If the answer to these questions is favourable we might consider offering to incorporate them into our clan as a subhouse.
Last edited by benuminister on Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Subjugation

Postby blackshade10 on Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:02 am

I wonder who said the exact same thing....

-points at EA thread- -.-
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Re: Subjugation

Postby benuminister on Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:05 am

You may have but, I just wanted to open it up to the convention hall. Also I don't think you were alone in think about such an approach.

Do you have any further elaboration you would like to post here though?
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Re: Subjugation

Postby blackshade10 on Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:08 am

Without knowing their military, economical, or cultural background, everything is pure speculation if it could work. We could use our bigger stick and use their trespass into our cavern as reason to use said stick on them to force them into servitude, but that only depends on if we outnumber them. They have enough of a workforce to build a toll in short time and ten warriors on the surface. We don't know if our stick is bigger, so we can't rely on that, though odds are it is.

And unless they went through a roundabout route, the odds of them being from Chel are small, so it's likely a foreign clan.
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Re: Subjugation

Postby benuminister on Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:11 am

So you don't want to try a diplomatic approach first?
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Re: Subjugation

Postby blackshade10 on Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:17 am

benuminister wrote:So you don't want to try a diplomatic approach first?


Diplomacy IS who has the bigger stick typically. At the root of it at least.

Who would want to be subjugated by someone who doesn't hold something over them? Whether it be through money, political ties, or simple muscle, you need a bigger stick when you want to get someone to serve you.
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Re: Subjugation

Postby benuminister on Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:21 am

That is why I insisted on asking questions, possibly by disguising scouts and sending them in or making a formal envoy. I would rather not use the envoy unless they are unwilling to give us the answers.
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Re: Subjugation

Postby Dsieda on Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:21 am

Pushing them into servitude wouldn't be so wise at this time. As you said we don't know about the rest of their militia, clan or background. Should they (by speculation) be a bigger clan than we realize, whose to say they won't come in to try and take them back from us? I'd say find out about them and instead, persuade them through means to become sort of a sub house to us (for instance, what we could become to the Nal should we continue to follow behind them so much,) This clan could become one of our vessels. Best find out who they are and take advantage before someone else does.
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Re: Subjugation

Postby minalia on Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:47 am

If we make them into a sub house of ours. won't that mean that whatever they are good at will be integrated with our current rank numbers to increase productivity and what about their Ilars opinion on this? For all we know we could be dealing with a Quaintana wannabe with ambitions of grandeur or even worse a Rhinn like leader who may agree but would backstab us in the back at their convenience? Ok we could maybe give them access to orthobas, maybe a seat in the inner clan since we do have connections with both the Nals and the Suls. We can offer them a lot of the things most of the other clans have giving us in the past for a price we were willing to pay.
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Re: Possible Subjugation

Postby waffleferret on Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:56 am

We should demand that they stop trying to toll our exit , tell them if they don't we will slaughter them and if they have an Illhar we wish to talk with her about this , who knows prehaphs we could work something out ..get an allie this approch I believe is reasonable and exspected sence they just show up in our home and tax at our door. If they refeuse we use force ...capture them prehaphs see about recruiting them this be something really good for us .
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Re: Subjugation

Postby benuminister on Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:01 am

minalia wrote:If we make them into a sub house of ours. won't that mean that whatever they are good at will be integrated with our current rank numbers to increase productivity and what about their Ilars opinion on this?


This is why I suggested asking questions be it through the scouts or official envoy.

minalia wrote:For all we know we could be dealing with a Quaintana wannabe with ambitions of grandeur or even worse a Rhinn like leader who may agree but would backstab us in the back at their convenience?


This is the reason I promote asking questions before we jump headlong into this

minalia wrote: Ok we could maybe give them access to orthobas, maybe a seat in the inner clan since we do have connections with both the Nals and the Suls. We can offer them a lot of the things most of the other clans have giving us in the past for a price we were willing to pay.


I guess these are viable ways to convince them to either ally or join with us. Plus if we can offer the above at a discount of sorts they might be even more in out debt.
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Re: Subjugation

Postby Dsieda on Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:03 am

minalia wrote:If we make them into a sub house of ours. won't that mean that whatever they are good at will be integrated with our current rank numbers to increase productivity and what about their Ilars opinion on this? For all we know we could be dealing with a Quaintana wannabe with ambitions of grandeur or even worse a Rhinn like leader who may agree but would backstab us in the back at their convenience? Ok we could maybe give them access to orthobas, maybe a seat in the inner clan since we do have connections with both the Nals and the Suls. We can offer them a lot of the things most of the other clans have giving us in the past for a price we were willing to pay.



That's why I'm more inclined to find out more about them first, Usually, it would be hard to absorb someone and NOT get somehow stabbed, but there's something you've got to do to make them fear/respect you.

If we find a way taking them over as a vessel clan might not be as hard as it seems.

Tamato: We don't know anything about this clan, threatening to "slaughter them" is not exactly the BEST reasoning in the world. You say if they refuse, slaughter them, but also capture them and recruiting them. That's kind of contradicting.
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Re: Subjugation

Postby Anza'ka Anzo on Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:08 am

minalia wrote:If we make them into a sub house of ours. won't that mean that whatever they are good at will be integrated with our current rank numbers to increase productivity and what about their Ilars opinion on this? For all we know we could be dealing with a Quaintana wannabe with ambitions of grandeur or even worse a Rhinn like leader who may agree but would backstab us in the back at their convenience? Ok we could maybe give them access to orthobas, maybe a seat in the inner clan since we do have connections with both the Nals and the Suls. We can offer them a lot of the things most of the other clans have giving us in the past for a price we were willing to pay.



Let me ask everyone something... why during this turmoil should we exchange anything? As far as I can see these warriors lack real weapons, this to me is a sign of a weak minor clan that just recently started. We are a strong minor clan, with real weapons, golems, connections and good leadership. Why should we be friends with this clan? Once they see our stronger numbers and weapons they would WANT to be our friends. So why should we be friends/allies? IF they are a weaker clan what could they possibly offer us that we would want? Our goal is to become strong if we can Subjugate or annex these people we should, because this will make us strong!
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Re: Possible Subjugation

Postby thatguyvex on Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:16 am

Too little information handicaps the decision making process but we can predict a few possible courses of action based on theoretical scenarios.

Scenario 1 "They're Smaller Than Us": If they are a group whose numbers and resources are inferior to our own then we find ourselves in the interesting position that the Svartelos found themselves in when they first encountered us at the mine. In our case we're free to pursue a similar route of either a) negotiating some manner of payment or recompense for the use of our land, which in turn could lead to future negotiations and potential alliance or b) Prepare to summarily wipe them out, taking whatever knocks we get in the process, and assimilate their cultural and technological distinctiveness into our own...resistance is futile...

Scenario 2 "They're the Same Size as Us" : In this case our negotiating power is diminished but not gone so we can in this case still talk payment for use of our land or work out a potential alliance, based on the idea that they might not be any more eager to risk lives and resources over a "fair fight" than we are. However in this case we also have a differnt option in which we seek assistance from our "ally" the Svartelos and propose a splitting of the loot as it were if they help us smack these guys into submission. Taking an aggressive stance and attempting to eliminate and/or assimilate them in this scenario is dangerous, but also doable. We'll take hits, no doubt, in the process, but if we're willing to take those hits this will certainly be an opportunity to demonstrate to the Clans of Chel that we're not to be underestimated. However there is also the distinct risk that while engaged with these fellows another enemy might take advantage of our distraction, or our weakness after the fighting is over.

Scenario 3 "They're Bigger Than Us": At this point I'd say fighting is out. It'd be rough enough taking on someone of equal size and overall strength, but bigger numerically leaves us looking at negotiations as the better bet. Unless Rhinn'elos is packing more mercs in her pocket than I think she has and is willing to let us use them; but I don't think we've got the ada to match her price and I'm not sure how much the promise of favors from us will merit to her. Of course there are other possible allies, perhaps in the Nal'Sarkoth but that'll lead to debt we don't want. We can still negotiate for profit from them holding the gate in the hope that, while bigger than us, they won't want to risk losing any people or resources in a fight that can be avoided by paying a portion of the tolls to us. But we lose leverage from being the smaller of the two parties, so negotiation will be almost as much of a uphill battle as fighting.

Or we just follow the Orky Flowchart and hope for the best.

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Re: Subjugation

Postby Ein'keos on Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:16 am

Were we to attack this force and win we would then need to build a defensible fort at the exit and man it with at least ten warriors at all times to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. These warriors could generate income for us by applying tolls of their own, but subjugation would mean that that work could be done for us, with this clan paying us tribute the way our shop payed tribute to the Nal in this EA. This only works if we've got the larger stick, so the entirety of the clan would have to be this group. If they are only an outpost of a much larger clan they would be able to reinforce and become too big of a threat. So assuming, and it is a very big assumption, that this is the majority or all of the group, I think to make this happen we'd have to do the following things:

1. Approach them with a display of strength and establish ourselves as the dominant party. I figure their forces probably aren't more then twenty tops, so Shiir, fourty warriors, all of the scouts and the golem (it's a symbol of our wealth and legitimacy as a clan) should probably do it.

2. Make a representative of their group come to us to negociate rather then bring the Illhar to the field. This, again, puts us in a position of power and makes her seem too important to bother leaving home. For this step I really wish we'd built Anjhali a throne room as it'd come in very useful, but since we haven't, we could perhaps just suggest via LA she deal with them from somewhere elevated. I'd personally prefer her to speak from atop the stairs in front of the main gate, but this is obviously to micro.

3. Find out the size of the clan and who they are from representative.

4. Being threatening at this point becomes unnecessary as we've already established dominance. We do what the Nal and Sharen have done to us and use a bit of honey to help get them to submit. Maybe we could agree to supply them with food to help secure vassalhood, demonstrating ways such a situation is mutually beneficial. We could also talk of bringing more trade through the cavern their way, perhaps through the construction of a road, services whatever. Things that could profit them and thus us as their patrons.

Steps 1, 2 and 3 are still what I think we ought to do anyways. In addition, subjugation might still work even if they have clan members somewhere far off, as the cost-benefits of just paying the tribute as opposed to spending resources to reinforce their position might be not worth it to them. With their mediocre looking equipment I think this a likely scenario.
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