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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby Exate on Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:13 am

thealbinobutterfly wrote:Really? Fascinating, because Me and Bel hardly ever talked.

Don't bring up the Faction thing either, because she was hardly on and i seemed to have had a talent for missing her all the time.

I don't think i'm the only one- there was a different rank that got left to a first come-first serve, and wasn't based on who was buddy buddy.

I suppose i'm getting incensed because i always regarded the Ranked as our leaders, to hear slander that somehow those in power only get it because they're friends makes me angry. There is much more to the process than that, i would hope. Your sarcastic attitude wasn't appreciated on my end and i didn't see it as witty at all.
I know nothing about your relationship, or lack thereof, with Bel. I completely ignored the entire Faction issue. I don't think I was even around last time that a rank got handed off. I am not slandering anyone. Nor have I suggested, explicitly or implicitly, that any single individual currently in power came to such because of their connections rather than competence.

The only thing that I'm doing here is analyzing and discussing the current system for the selection of ranked members, offering my own thoughts and responses on it (many of which are sarcastic even inside my own head, which is often reflected in my posts), and attempting to clarify and discuss the opinions and analysis offered by others. I am doing this largely because I'm awake, online, and the discussion of the matter seemed interesting in a theoretical sense, which is the sense that this entire game interests me in- I'm in this for the entertainment value of building a clan from the ground up and watching it overcome challenges, not to hang out with my fellow players, delightful though they often are. I don't even care much about who's in charge as long as they're competent, as I pointed out in a tongue-in-cheek manner above. I most certainly have no interest whatsoever in stirring up emotions of prickly individuals who perceive some sort of malice on my part.

I appreciate your contribution of data, specifically a counterexample to the theorized pattern, to the discussion. Thank you.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby Catriana on Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:29 am

Exate, I don't think she was referring to you concerning the slander. I really think she was referring to Kirio who has, up to this point, been all but insinuating that the current system is corrupted because people don't 'conciously realize' they're doing so by 'hiring their friends'. If anything, I think she was just miffed at your sarcasm. Being witty and sarcastic is all fine and well but it seems that this is a touchy subject, so perhaps it's not appropriate this time around.

Like, I can understand Jaibyrd's statement because of the circumstances I've already listed. She has presented her case in a rather polite and professional manner, and had asked the same of everyone else. I can respect that.

Because I'm a straight-forward sort of person, I'm not going to state what I think are the reasons others are protesting because I could get dinged for being inappropriate, get accused of pulling something off my VIEWS and OPINIONS as fact (which I don't unless I state otherwise) and butthurt would just go all around. I've had enough of that thankyouverymuch.

@Xenon: Maybe you should calm down a bit? I really do understand that you're upset (rightly so IMO) but I think we should respect the author's desire to have a discussion on the Vote or Succession and just ignore the slanderous comments. They're accusations with no real basis and it's really just a low blow to undertake.


I do hold a compromise up there if anyone wants to discuss it. I think it's kind of a happy medium that could put folks a bit more at ease.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby kirio on Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:34 pm

Look,
You folks can distort what I've been saying till you are all blue in the face.

All I have been arguing for from the very beginning is that EVERYONE no matter how much they participate or how long they've been members deserves an equal chance at upgrading to a ranked membership (Everyone PAYS the same basic membership fee. There are no "Terms of Participation" requiring minimum level of participation to qualify for a ranked membership). And, the best chance they have of convincing the other members of their merit is posting proposals of how they are going to fulfill their duties and have everyone vote. Sure in voting people have the option of voting for their friends, but that doesn't mean they'll win. Kir'ima was a brand new member when he competed for the Scout leader position and he managed to convince enough people to support him that he won over Q's second. Others should also have that opportunity.

Not only Kir'ima, but also Meska, Thorn, and Madea got their positions through such competition and that's how I think EVERY ranked position should be filled (Miburo also qualifies under this even though the position was uncontested others had the opportunity to compete).
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby Thalar on Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:35 pm

Kirio - there is no need for conspiracy theories. Insinuating that all the ranked members may possibly be corrupt and taking bribes will lead us nowhere. Saying that they are and bringing definite proof, on the other hand, will. If you can't give us this proof then all you are doing with your statements, intended or not, is spreading feelings of discontent and distrust, which leads us into a downward spiral where in the end noone trusts anyone. These are your fellow clan members you speak of, ranked or not. There was no need to drag conspiracy theories into it if all you wanted to say was that you believe everyone should have an equal chance at becoming ranked.

Everyone who has an assistant job today is in a unique position. They can give their own feedback to their ranked member, they can participate in, and even change what will be happening on the EA side, by coming up with their own suggestions. Even people outside that particular assistant group can come with ideas. This is most visible in the more creative jobs, necessarily, but it is present in all. Going by what we see on the forum, the ranked members and their assistant groups function like think tanks, not tyrannies. The biggest difference between a ranked member and a non-ranked member today is the ranked pays a higher monthly fee. In return for this fee, the ranked gets to decide what their section will do, and they get to decide how their succession is to be handled if they decide to step down. With the open system we have today, all assistants basically get the same as the ranked (initially, the ranked members were supposed to be the only ones shown as non-faceless, for those of you who weren't around at that time), except for these two decisions and the accountability that comes with being the one to make them.

The people who believe the ranked hold all the power within the clan forget the power they themselves hold as clan members. The only clan members without any power are the ones that do not vote. The ranked don't get any extra votes for the LA, your voice and theirs counts as the same 1 vote for a LA option. If you are unhappy with how things are proceeding, use your LA vote wisely. The ranked answer to the Ilharess, and the Ilharess acts according to the clan's wishes as expressed through the votes.

As it stands today, a ranked member may designate their successor when they step down. If you wish to challenge this decision, you will have to object with a LA vote.

The forum, while a great place to discuss what's going on and to make plans, is not where the game actually happens.

If the ranked chooses to hold an election on the forums first, that is their prerogative, but it is also their prerogative to choose a successor and simply report this to the Ilharess. As it is your prerogative to protest this decision with a LA vote. Even if the action is posted late, the EA deadline is prior to the LA deadline, so it's not like it can't be done.

We could probably discuss this for days to come, but the end result is the same. Kern has decreed that a ranked member may designate a successor, and everyone has the power to challenge this designation through a LA vote. This is not about to change.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby Catriana on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:11 pm

kirio wrote:Look,
You folks can distort what I've been saying till you are all blue in the face.

All I have been arguing for from the very beginning is that EVERYONE no matter how much they participate or how long they've been members deserves an equal chance at upgrading to a ranked membership (Everyone PAYS the same basic membership fee. There are no "Terms of Participation" requiring minimum level of participation to qualify for a ranked membership). And, the best chance they have of convincing the other members of their merit is posting proposals of how they are going to fulfill their duties and have everyone vote. Sure in voting people have the option of voting for their friends, but that doesn't mean they'll win. Kir'ima was a brand new member when he competed for the Scout leader position and he managed to convince enough people to support him that he won over Q's second. Others should also have that opportunity.

Not only Kir'ima, but also Meska, Thorn, and Madea got their positions through such competition and that's how I think EVERY ranked position should be filled (Miburo also qualifies under this even though the position was uncontested others had the opportunity to compete).


Then you should have just simply said that from the beginning, instead of going around saying there's 'corruption' (potential, accidental, unintentional or whatever) and implying that it's not fair because people put up those that are their 'friends, which could be seen as you stating you have a lack of faith in the leadership's ability to compentently pick a successor, thus there needing to be a change in the system. I don't really blame any ranked for being upset, I'd hate to be (basically) called incompetent to the point where a vote system would have to be established everytime a ranked steps down. It's not a distortion, you either believe they are competent enough to pick a successor or you don't. With the tone you were putting out, it really seemed like you didn't. What you were saying held serious implications whether you meant it or not.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby Hetros on Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:58 pm

Again, there's been no evidence of corruption, in fact, everything goes against THAT. We can't bog down the game every time a position needs to be filled. Succession is a good steady method. Without evidence of corruption, there is no point to this conversation on simply the "potential" for it.

I understand the wish to have votes, heck, it keeps the system totally fair, but at the cost of bogging down the system. If we had taken time to vote a new person into the position, rather than Bel just give the position to a successor, one who seems to be fully qualified to hold the position, then we'd have lost valuable time over this.

Seriously. The system works, can we not screw with it? Please?

edit: When NEW positions come up, or during periods where we have the luxury of time, then sure. I see no reason not to do so. But during here and now, I think it's incredibly dangerous to screw with the system when we REALLY need a quick and efficent method of transfering leadership. We all know and trust the potential leaders, there is no reason to be paranoid about this.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby Aeryll on Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:25 pm

A voting system does not need to bog down the system, if you do it right.
The Leader's advice is a perfect example. People put their own advice up there, or vote for the advice already there. Miss the deadline to vote? Tough, better luck next time.

If I'd have to use a voting system to appoint a ranked then this would be the system I'd prefer. The member stepping down can appoint a successor which would appear straightforward in the voting box, possible marked 'successor'. After that other interested parties can add their name to the voting box. The next turn the one with the most votes becomes the next ranked.

Easy, straightforward and takes just as much time as appointing a successor straight away. If noone votes then the successor gets the office, if everyone votes for someone else that's in the voting box then you got the majority backing that person, which is also good. So everyone stays happy and such.

The thing is that probably alot of people just would have voted Xenon in office after Bel named her successor, given the chance. Which is basicly the only thing that might irk me probably at some point. Voting is a nice way to determine who's interested in the job, and involved enough to get some backing, but also for the voters to show their support.

A chance to, well, back the person you think is best. I don't dispute that the ranked can make that decision all by themselves and come to the perfect result (again, Bel putting Xenon forward, thumbs up), but the rest of us wants to do something with it aswell, even if it's only casting an unnecessary vote to a person that would get them all anyways.

Running of going on a tantrum I'm noticing, so stopping now. It's how I look at this issue.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby blackshade10 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:30 pm

Aeryll wrote:A voting system does not need to bog down the system, if you do it right.
The Leader's advice is a perfect example. People put their own advice up there, or vote for the advice already there. Miss the deadline to vote? Tough, better luck next time.

If I'd have to use a voting system to appoint a ranked then this would be the system I'd prefer. The member stepping down can appoint a successor which would appear straightforward in the voting box, possible marked 'successor'. After that other interested parties can add their name to the voting box. The next turn the one with the most votes becomes the next ranked.

Easy, straightforward and takes just as much time as appointing a successor straight away. If noone votes then the successor gets the office, if everyone votes for someone else that's in the voting box then you got the majority backing that person, which is also good. So everyone stays happy and such.

The thing is that probably alot of people just would have voted Xenon in office after Bel named her successor, given the chance. Which is basicly the only thing that might irk me probably at some point. Voting is a nice way to determine who's interested in the job, and involved enough to get some backing, but also for the voters to show their support.

A chance to, well, back the person you think is best. I don't dispute that the ranked can make that decision all by themselves and come to the perfect result (again, Bel putting Xenon forward, thumbs up), but the rest of us wants to do something with it aswell, even if it's only casting an unnecessary vote to a person that would get them all anyways.

Running of going on a tantrum I'm noticing, so stopping now. It's how I look at this issue.



The example you used, the one of just making it a fast vote for one LA, is what people are talking about. ^^;

Using that method would require that the LA literally come to a halt, in other words, the story come to a halt or make very little progress, as the LA options are filled with nominations.


Like Het said, don't try to fix something that isn't broken.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby Novusod on Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:18 pm

I submit that the current system is broken and in desperate need of reform. A lot of people who have had their eyes on the various ranked and their supporters are completely marginalized by the current system which dismpowers them. This type of dissension is not good for the clan because instead of having a constructive battle of ideas where the best idea wins all we are left with is a battle of ire and spite with the shut out party hoping the other side crashes and burns. I should not have tell you that is not healthy. A house divided against itself cannot stand and our divided house will not continue standing much longer if there is not reform.

Take the example of the ambassador which took many months of fighting and deal making to even bring into existence. When Bel'xullyn stepped down many of the original supporters are going to feel intense resentment to the appointed Xenon who took no part in the original campaign. This is not fair to either side really because who wants to feel resented? The system by its very nature promotes division. We have ranked now in power who has no mandate because she and (and others *Kitab) were not elected. The was no debate, there was no reaching across to compromise and find common ground. Bottom line there is no trust.

When I campaigned for the rank of miner the only rank I ever coveted for myself I put forth my best ideas but I also listened to other people's ideas. In the campaign I took some of those competing ideas and constructively added them to my platform to garner support, reach common ground with others, and build a mandate for myself should I have won the election. We don't have constructive elections like that anymore. Instead we have nepotism and succession and votes of "no confidence" as the only form of democracy being practiced.

Recently I have had to take a few steps back from the game because of all the dissension. It is not fun to come here every day and read a bunch of hate and reply in turn. Don't hate on the player hate the system. We should all really have one goal here. Advance the clan to power.

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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby Aeryll on Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:43 pm

blackshade10 wrote:The example you used, the one of just making it a fast vote for one LA, is what people are talking about. ^^;

Using that method would require that the LA literally come to a halt, in other words, the story come to a halt or make very little progress, as the LA options are filled with nominations.


Like Het said, don't try to fix something that isn't broken.


Ah, I think you misunderstand me. I'll try to clarify.
I don't want that the leader advice box is used for voting in another ranked member, if voting is used, but a separate, extra voting box, just open for the particular turn a ranked member is taking a step down, and only for the purpose of choosing who would fill the empty space.

Neither the ranked action box, or the leader advice box should be used for it, because yea, that would waste a turn, which would disrupt the story to much.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby Hetros on Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:04 pm

Aeryll wrote:
blackshade10 wrote:The example you used, the one of just making it a fast vote for one LA, is what people are talking about. ^^;

Using that method would require that the LA literally come to a halt, in other words, the story come to a halt or make very little progress, as the LA options are filled with nominations.


Like Het said, don't try to fix something that isn't broken.


Ah, I think you misunderstand me. I'll try to clarify.
I don't want that the leader advice box is used for voting in another ranked member, if voting is used, but a separate, extra voting box, just open for the particular turn a ranked member is taking a step down, and only for the purpose of choosing who would fill the empty space.

Neither the ranked action box, or the leader advice box should be used for it, because yea, that would waste a turn, which would disrupt the story to much.


If we could convince Kern to get this put up, I'd support it, as it wouldn't bog down the whole process. Wait a sec... I have an idea.

Okay. The Relic Hunter's game works on a "waiting list" system right?

What if we have a similar thing with a twist? AKA: You submit yourself for a position before it becomes vacant. Then when it DOES become vacant the side box becomes active, and allows us to choose the next rank from those on the waiting list, and whoever was chosen as the successor. If no one on the list is currently active, or there's simply no one on the list, then the successor automatically gets the position. The Successor would also automatically start with an extra vote since they're the choice of the person who held the position before them. If somebody is getting ousted, rather than simply stepping down, then obviously there is no successor.

Does this seem like a fair system? The problem is that it'd either have to be done through a forum post, or through a mechanic on the website itself. The forum post method COULD work... if it were possible to edit polls... hmmmm... any ideas on this front? Is it possible to edit and change polls as necessary? For instance, could we keep this all in a single thread and not have to open a new thread every time? Or would that require one of the mods to regulate such a thread?

Now, I still don't believe the system is broken, but obviously there's quite a few people who do dislike it, and so that should be accommodated. This system allows for the current system to work, with successors, so the choices of the ranks matter, but also allow for the clan to overturn the decision. If done through the forums the active members will all see it and thus you'll have to be an active member to get on the waiting list.

This all seem like a sound and fair system? If it could be implemented?
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby Kir'ima on Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:24 pm

Um... did everyone read this, or are people just ignoring it?
Thalar wrote:If the ranked chooses to hold an election on the forums first, that is their prerogative, but it is also their prerogative to choose a successor and simply report this to the Ilharess. As it is your prerogative to protest this decision with a LA vote. Even if the action is posted late, the EA deadline is prior to the LA deadline, so it's not like it can't be done.

We could probably discuss this for days to come, but the end result is the same. Kern has decreed that a ranked member may designate a successor, and everyone has the power to challenge this designation through a LA vote. This is not about to change.

Site modifications like the proposed cost money and require time and effort by the programmer, so unless the current system is broken from Kern's POV, I seriously doubt it will happen.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby Jaibyrd on Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:29 pm

Hetros wrote:
What if we have a similar thing with a twist? AKA: You submit yourself for a position before it becomes vacant. Then when it DOES become vacant the side box becomes active, and allows us to choose the next rank from those on the waiting list, and whoever was chosen as the successor. If no one on the list is currently active, or there's simply no one on the list, then the successor automatically gets the position. The Successor would also automatically start with an extra vote since they're the choice of the person who held the position before them. If somebody is getting ousted, rather than simply stepping down, then obviously there is no successor.

Does this seem like a fair system? The problem is that it'd either have to be done through a forum post, or through a mechanic on the website itself. The forum post method COULD work... if it were possible to edit polls... hmmmm... any ideas on this front? Is it possible to edit and change polls as necessary? For instance, could we keep this all in a single thread and not have to open a new thread every time? Or would that require one of the mods to regulate such a thread?

Now, I still don't believe the system is broken, but obviously there's quite a few people who do dislike it, and so that should be accommodated. This system allows for the current system to work, with successors, so the choices of the ranks matter, but also allow for the clan to overturn the decision. If done through the forums the active members will all see it and thus you'll have to be an active member to get on the waiting list.

This all seem like a sound and fair system? If it could be implemented?


Oh Hetros that's a great idea! (as the two guys from the Guinness commercials say, "Brilliant!") I wonder if we could submit a formal proposal to Kern, or should we post it in the LA to be voted on along with an explanation first thing next week (I would think it's too late for this week to get it considered properly)?

As for forum polls, I believe on this type of board you can edit them (as long as you're the one who 1. made the poll or 2. have mod power). As for anything else we may want to go to the programmer Denhomer to see if it's feasible (or Mliburo as I believe she's Denhomer's other half. ;) )

What say the rest of you, would this not be a decent compromise if we hammer out the details a bit?
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby Hetros on Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:29 pm

Kir'ima wrote:Um... did everyone read this, or are people just ignoring it?
Thalar wrote:If the ranked chooses to hold an election on the forums first, that is their prerogative, but it is also their prerogative to choose a successor and simply report this to the Ilharess. As it is your prerogative to protest this decision with a LA vote. Even if the action is posted late, the EA deadline is prior to the LA deadline, so it's not like it can't be done.

We could probably discuss this for days to come, but the end result is the same. Kern has decreed that a ranked member may designate a successor, and everyone has the power to challenge this designation through a LA vote. This is not about to change.

Site modifications like the proposed cost money and require time and effort by the programmer, so unless the current system is broken from Kern's POV, I seriously doubt it will happen.



point. Valid. Forget what I said before.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby Frost Indri on Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:19 am

For the record, I got my position because I knew it was coming up, got on when the page usually came up, and grabbed. It was not fun, and I know that there were a lot of disappointed people. That being said, I feel this is a larger issue because we've not had any new ranks in a long while.

I doubt the actual game mechanic is going to change, but I think its fair to ask the Ranked (myself included) to be more open about succession than a last minute post and announcement. Obviously it causes distention and harm to the clan.
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