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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby thealbinobutterfly on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:31 am

kirio wrote:
Catriana wrote:So what you're saying Kirio is that the ranked have been manipulating successions?


NO, and please do not put such inflammatory words in my mouth.
Designated successors have been associates of the ranked member. That cannot be denied. Nor can it be denied that other candidates were not given an opportunity. Active manipulation has not yet occurred. Control has been passive and not self-conscious.

No one has delibrately denied others an opportunity, but that opportunities have been denied is a fact.

A ranked member choosing a successor will look first to the members he or she knows best. Those will be, of necessity, that person's friends. It is essentially impossible for the ranked member to avoid favoritism. They can't possibly judge a stranger fairly on their merits.

Blackshade, it is much much more difficult for a group to agree to cooperate on a decision than it is for a single person too decide. That is why democracy is preferrable to dictatorship. Groups are far less prone to favoritism and corruption than an individual.



I'd like to understand where this opinion of corruption and favouritism is coming from. Who has been favored? Who has been corrupt?

Also, Democracy is just as prone to it, for your own reasons. A large group can sway the votes in the LA. If that group is organized, and self-same motivated.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby benuminister on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:57 am

Cressin you seems to be quoting something from Hobbes and Locke. May I say That although not everyone is party to the forums it is still the official meeting place for PtP members. As such it can run small elections in and of itself without ever restricting game play.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby thealbinobutterfly on Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:00 am

benuminister wrote:Cressin you seems to be quoting something from Hobbes and Locke. May I say That although not everyone is party to the forums it is still the official meeting place for PtP members. As such it can run small elections in and of itself without ever restricting game play.


i don't see how his opinions have anything to do with natural law, since we are talking about succession, and not survival of the fittest.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby Catriana on Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:18 am

I didn't put ANY words in your mouth. I asked a question because in my opinion, you're acting very shady and it's really disappointing me because I have a lot of respect for you. But I'm not going to say anything else concerning your statements. I strongly feel that what you are saying is speaking quite clearly to everyone in this discussion.

Moving on:

I don't believe ranks that have been solidly established and have active members and a SiC should have their ranked position open to a clan-wide vote unless the clan protests. If you wanted that ranked position that badly, you should have joined that position. Why should a complete outsider come in, step over everyone else in that section and take over? What do you know about what's been going on? How would you know how things have been ran? Where have you been this entire time? Just because folks want a ranked position doesn't mean that common respect for those who are working hard and may also want a chance to become a ranked of a job they're ACTIVELY participating in should be disregarded. The people who have already been there get first dibs as far as I'm concerned. Just because folks want a shot at being ranked doesn't mean they should get it over people who are already there. I'm NOT okay with that.

However, I do have a compromise. Ranked members should tell THEIR people that they are stepping down and who they desire to take their place. An announcement should be made prior to any action being taken. If anyone already in that class wishes to step up and try their hand, then that section can take a vote on it. The only time the clan should jump in is if they are in disagreement to who is succeeding. Otherwise, it should really be between that class. Simply ignoring all the people that have chosen that class is disrespectful to all the folks that have been actively working and putting their efforts into making that section function properly. The entire clan is not going to know what's been going on with that section and unless they feel as if it has been ran improperly, no one is really going to see a need to get involved with that section. Thusly, Class succession should be sorted out by the class, not the clan. The clan has not been involved with the dynamics of what's been going on, the Class members have. Therefore, they should have first opportunity.


The ONLY thing that is arguable is the Ambassador position and that is for two main reasons:

1) Bel didn't even HOLD the rank that long

2) She had 0 people under her.


The Ambassador's case is the only special example, although I do not dispute the person that is currently in that position. Jaibyrd does make a good point, she HAS been here longer and she does hold respect of many and she had no opportunity to put in her name. However, she can also be argued against, as she has recently not been nearly as active as Xenon concerning the clan or the board and even though Xenon hasn't been around as long, she's also done her fair share of contributions. On the flip side, Xenon quit, came back and then was selected Ambassador. Either way arguments can be made and either way it doesn't matter: What happened happened. So then....

The solution?: The same compromise I listed above. Bel should have put forth her nomination and seen if anyone else was interested. A poll could have been put up in that section without having to litter the LA box with submissions. So that is my suggestion in the future for the ambassador rank: The Ambassador has the right to choose who they want to succeed and if anyone wishes to step up, they can. This should be the only position where the CLAN can put in their views, because there is only one Ambassador and they represent the clan as a whole, not a particular section.


We shouldn't be flooding the freaking LA with succession votes every single time a ranked position comes up. It leads to chaos and just overall annoyance. You want a particular ranked position so badly? Join that class. Just because you want a position doesn't mean you should be able to go over everyone's heads that have been working there and suddenly come out on top. I don't think that's fair to all of those people in that section.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby benuminister on Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:20 am

It is not what I mean. It is I am using it as an interference the type of discussion style he was using.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby thealbinobutterfly on Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:29 am

benuminister wrote:It is not what I mean. It is I am using it as an interference the type of discussion style he was using.


Hmm, i don't see how. Perhaps you could show me in a PM, since my interest is now objective. I love Hobbes' and Locke, it's rare to find someone who is also a fan.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby benuminister on Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:41 am

This is starting to remind me of the Committee of Public Safety during The Terror of the French Revolution.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby Exate on Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:58 am

thealbinobutterfly wrote:
kirio wrote:
Catriana wrote:So what you're saying Kirio is that the ranked have been manipulating successions?
NO

...
I'd like to understand where this opinion of corruption and favouritism is coming from. Who has been favored? Who has been corrupt?

What's being observed, as I understand it, is that the nature of the system in place- specifically, the ranked designating their successors and requiring a vote of no confidence or overwhelming support for a rival candidate to alter their decision rather than putting the matter to an open vote- is one which naturally allows and indeed even rewards corruption. There has been no accusation that the ranked which we have thus far had have succumbed to this temptation, but rather a justifiable fear that if the system is left as it stands, there will be in the future.

Basically, the system of handing off ranks to designated individuals encourages ranked members to have their successors be those close to them. Even if they're not actively trying for nepotism, it is still likely to occur- after all, any hard-working ranked individual will naturally want those in whom they have a great deal of confidence to take their position after them, and those people are going to be the ones with whom they communicate frequently, and likely those whom they agree with on most issues. The net result is that the job is handed off to a friend, even if the best of intentions are involved.

The possibility of secretly arranging the sale of a ranked position, or other darker problems, is also present, although it would probably be impolitic to dwell upon it. It's pretty easy to get into conspiracy theories from there. The point of the matter, though, is not that there have been problems in the past but rather that there is an extreme vulnerability to problems in the future, and this possibility should be quashed before it has had the chance to manifest itself in what will undoubtedly be a shitstorm of truly epic proportions.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby Hetros on Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:05 am

Look, the system we currently have works. It's not perfect, but it's got a check and balance to keep it from spinning out of control. Frankly, I doubt "nepotism" is going to happen simply because it costs so much to be a ranked member. So far all I've read is that people are worried about the system, but at the same time, have not been displeased with those who have been elected as successors................................ soooooooooooooooo, yeah, why are we even having this discussion? The system WORKS, and players can work it out amongst themselves about the fairness of a younger player getting the position over one who has expressed a wish to get it for much longer.

Hell, look at me, case in point. I was on longer than Nagimalice(I -think- I'm not certain on this front) and had expressed the wish to become the armorer for a much longer time (that I AM sure of). Blacksmith position popped up, before I could even BEGIN to take it she had it. That was back when it was a first come first serve basis. Did I really care all that much? Yeah, sure. I was a little disappointed, and pleased that some of my friends stuck up for me, but really I felt that it would just be better to wait for the position I expected to be coming up (Armorer. Originally the plan was to have armorer to make weapons and armor, while the blacksmith would do tools and odd jobs, the position was obviously simplified). I got a forge working position and it was all good. I waited for the armorer position, which isn't actually happening <shrugs> but oh well. It turned out to be a MUCH better thing for the clan in the long run since soon after it became apparent I would have to disappear for long periods of time, thus we'd have ended up with somebody else running the show anyway.

I'm not saying that is the case ALWAYS, but it's an example of how the system works despite "I called dibs first" mechanic that people think is "fairer."

To summarize: Don't try to fix things that aren't broken. You're more likely to screw it up. Wait for a problem to actually BECOME apparent within the system before going on about "Oh, but this might happen, or that might happen" because chances are, we're all responsible adults here, and it likely won't.

edit: Also, while LIKELY to happen in the real world, uncontrolled communities, I think within our own contained, very small population (eg: controlled) of players, corruption is FAR less likely. We all generally trust each other, and listen to each others' advice. None of us embark on personal projects that cost the clan unless we get approval first or they're relatively harmless. Thus, I think the fears of corruption are largely unfounded and simply paranoia. Unless someone can come up with a concrete example of corruption within -OUR- system, then I think challenging the current "successor chosen by a rank, vote held if clan disapproves" system is simply a monumental waste of time.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby Exate on Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:21 am

Hetros wrote:To summarize: Don't try to fix things that aren't broken. You're more likely to screw it up. Wait for a problem to actually BECOME apparent within the system before going on about "Oh, but this might happen, or that might happen" because chances are, we're all responsible adults here, and it likely won't.

A worthy perspective. The people that the current setup works against the most are those who are not close with those ranked likely to step down, but who are nevertheless extremely active such that they would like a ranked position and stand a good chance of being elected to one were it thrown open. If there is a problem which already exists in the current system, it's that those people are being denied a chance at a ranked position which they would otherwise be a contender for. I'm not one of those, so it really doesn't matter to me if the selection process for ranked members is vulnerable to problems or not as long as whoever's elected is reasonably competent and doesn't screw up the clan.

In other words, nepotism is fine by me as long as it works. Besides, under the current system, if I ever want to be a ranked member I have to befriend (/bribe) only one person. Under a democratic system, I'd have to befriend (/bribe) a plurality of those interested voting on the matter. Life is made easy; score!
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby Hetros on Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:34 am

Exate wrote:
Hetros wrote:To summarize: Don't try to fix things that aren't broken. You're more likely to screw it up. Wait for a problem to actually BECOME apparent within the system before going on about "Oh, but this might happen, or that might happen" because chances are, we're all responsible adults here, and it likely won't.

A worthy perspective. The people that the current setup works against the most are those who are not close with those ranked likely to step down, but who are nevertheless extremely active such that they would like a ranked position and stand a good chance of being elected to one were it thrown open. If there is a problem which already exists in the current system, it's that those people are being denied a chance at a ranked position which they would otherwise be a contender for. I'm not one of those, so it really doesn't matter to me if the selection process for ranked members is vulnerable to problems or not as long as whoever's elected is reasonably competent and doesn't screw up the clan.

In other words, nepotism is fine by me as long as it works. Besides, under the current system, if I ever want to be a ranked member I have to befriend (/bribe) only one person. Under a democratic system, I'd have to befriend (/bribe) a plurality of those interested voting on the matter. Life is made easy; score!

not quite the point I was trying to drive home -_-; but sure...
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby thealbinobutterfly on Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:35 am

The ranked will pass the position to those they think deserve it, not those who are their best friends.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby Catriana on Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:41 am

There has been no accusation that the ranked which we have thus far had have succumbed to this temptation, but rather a justifiable fear that if the system is left as it stands, there will be in the future.


Then why hasn't it been brought up like this before if it's so worrisome? If certain people have been here so long, why is it they wait until now to throw a fit about it?

Furthermore Exate, those other statements aren't...really constructive to the conversation or helping to come up with a solution, if any is needed. D:
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby Exate on Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:50 am

Catriana wrote:
There has been no accusation that the ranked which we have thus far had have succumbed to this temptation, but rather a justifiable fear that if the system is left as it stands, there will be in the future.
Then why hasn't it been brought up like this before if it's so worrisome? If certain people have been here so long, why is it they wait until now to throw a fit about it?
I would guess that it's because the recent change of ranks has fully demonstrated the danger in the minds of those concerned. I'm not really around often enough to analyze existing long-duration trends, though, so take that with a grain of salt.

Catriana wrote:Furthermore Exate, those other statements aren't...really constructive to the conversation or helping to come up with a solution, if any is needed. D:
Hetros wrote:not quite the point I was trying to drive home -_-; but sure...
Heh, sorry, I couldn't resist the temptation to say that. I thought it both mildly witty and illustrative, though perhaps my full meaning was not communicated. I was attempting to point out that the "if it works, don't mess with it" paradigm has significant reason to back it from a pragmatic standpoint, when viewed from the perspective of an individual in my position (that is, communicates on the forums mostly only when events in the archives catch their attention enough for them to do so).

thealbinobutterfly wrote:The ranked will pass the position to those they think deserve it, not those who are their best friends.
The two are by no means mutually exclusive. That's the whole potential problem, and where the possibility for unintentional nepotism comes in- even when doing what they think best for the clan by all available information, in choosing those who seem most capable any individual may tend to favor those with whom they frequently consort simply because they have the greatest sense of the scope of their abilities.

As Hetros pointed out, this may or may not seem to be a serious problem, depending upon one's perspective.
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Re: Vacated Ranked Positions: Public vote or succession allowed?

Postby thealbinobutterfly on Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:56 am

Exate wrote:
thealbinobutterfly wrote:The ranked will pass the position to those they think deserve it, not those who are their best friends.
The two are by no means mutually exclusive. That's the whole potential problem, and where the possibility for unintentional nepotism comes in- even when doing what they think best for the clan by all available information, in choosing those who seem most capable any individual may tend to favor those with whom they frequently consort simply because they have the greatest sense of the scope of their abilities.



Really? Fascinating, because Me and Bel hardly ever talked.

Don't bring up the Faction thing either, because she was hardly on and i seemed to have had a talent for missing her all the time.

I don't think i'm the only one- there was a different rank that got left to a first come-first serve, and wasn't based on who was buddy buddy.

I suppose i'm getting incensed because i always regarded the Ranked as our leaders, to hear slander that somehow those in power only get it because they're friends makes me angry. There is much more to the process than that, i would hope. Your sarcastic attitude wasn't appreciated on my end and i didn't see it as witty at all.
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