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Re: LA Day 32: War, Negotiate, or Tribute; we must choose one.

Postby PenDragon on Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:41 am

*hmmm* Actually, I liked the proposed defense Rulishia submitted even though it might impede the travel of golems and the koa'naka. This is what I said.

PenDragon wrote:As for Rulishia's proposed defense, I think it has potential. There's just one small detail: we don't have any siege bows, let alone that many. Until we do, I think that proposed defenses should remain simple and involve things we actually can do as opposed to what we want.

There's a serious flaw that continues to be overlooked by some. Making up ideas for the satellite defenses and bow emplacements is fine, but how can we deploy what the clan doesn't have as a defense?

Is dividing 26 Warriors across the map for satellite defenses worth it if it leaves the home undefended? As for the siege bows, I know we don't have any, but we can use regular bows once the necessary arrangements are complete. Warriors stationed in the general areas that Rulishia mark armed with regular bows and arrows should help.

As for the security vs. siege thing... if an ARMY laid siege to us and all we have are 26 warriors plus however many faceless Shiir can scrounge up as conscripts, then we're all gonna LOSE. Sad, but true. The only thing we can do is prepare defenses within our power and hope the day never comes.
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Re: LA Day 32: War, Negotiate, or Tribute; we must choose one.

Postby Rulishia on Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:21 am

You are not one for planning for the future are you?
PenDragon wrote:There's a serious flaw that continues to be overlooked by some. Making up ideas for the satellite defenses and bow emplacements is fine, but how can we deploy what the clan doesn't have as a defense?

This is what is called: Strategic Planning"
You may not have it now, however by planning for it in advance you do not try to half-ass it into an already established defense making a muck of things.
Besides, as most of you have said, the building of a defensive wall at the entrance would take time. During that time Mari'ciel could be researching construction techniques for the repeater crossbows. More than likely she would have a prototype up and running long before the wall is even 70% complete.
PenDragon wrote:Is dividing 26 Warriors across the map for satellite defenses worth it if it leaves the home undefended? As for the siege bows, I know we don't have any, but we can use regular bows once the necessary arrangements are complete. Warriors stationed in the general areas that Rulishia mark armed with regular bows and arrows should help.

Who said anything about dividing up our soldier resources up needlessly? The plan I had for the manning of the satellite defenses is no more than what we are doing RIGHT NOW. The warrior squad that is guarding the Mine would move up to the wall itself and would be rotated out on a daily basis (as we do currently), this squad is further supplemented by the current Scout Cavern Watch. Effectively this brings the watch-team strength UP from 2-4 Scouts to 2-4 Scouts AND 5 Warriors. The other 4 squads of warriors regularly spend their time in and around Ther'avare, unless otherwise tasked.
Having warriors with bow and arrows there in the proposed crossbow nests would do well in a pinch, but if we are dealing with an enemy trying to bash down our door, I would prefer the firepower provided by the repeater.
Either way, you asking for city defenses is asking for defense against an attacking army. Traps and such are a very micro managed item. City defenses as a whole are rather macro.
Honestly, what do you want for a "city defense?" A Police force? The warriors provide that in patrols we make in and around the ruins proper when not stationed at the mine.
PenDragon wrote:As for the security vs. siege thing... if an ARMY laid siege to us and all we have are 26 warriors plus however many faceless Shiir can scrounge up as conscripts, then we're all gonna LOSE. Sad, but true. The only thing we can do is prepare defenses within our power and hope the day never comes.

Oh yes, very true. Any determined large force would be able to overcome any kind of defenses given enough time and resources. The partial point to making large and impressive defenses (even if only seen as an initial construction project) is to put forth in the mind of any POTENTIAL attacker that it would be not worth their while to even try.
Most actions I have seen that take place in the DT manga is taken by small squads. These squads would not try to attack a very well prepared defensive area without significant support (metaknowledge-guess: which many clans may not want to commit, since they have their own inter-clan rivalries [ie - why invade the Tei'kaliath if the Sarghess seem to making a move or even the Sharen])
I believe the term we have used for this is: "Force Projection"
By making this harder for an attacker to accomplish his mission, they might even give up completely.
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Re: LA Day 32: War, Negotiate, or Tribute; we must choose one.

Postby Jeriah on Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:11 pm

Rulishia wrote:You are not one for planning for the future are you?

((That statement can work both ways.

Rulishia wrote:Who said anything about dividing up our soldier resources up needlessly? The plan I had for the manning of the satellite defenses is no more than what we are doing RIGHT NOW.

If we keep our warriors with the same assignments, are you suggesting that the path through the entrance near the tik'tikki nest continue to remain unguarded? If so, any opfor can just take the tik'tikki path to raid the ruins or flank the warriors stationed at the wall at the 'main' entrance. If the tik'tikki entrance will also require manning, then that means that our forces will be split up more than they currently are.))
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Re: Event Archive Day 33

Postby Idunyken on Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:38 pm

I don't think keeping this discussion going here is helpful...put your ideas and opinions in the Town and Cavern fortifications thread.

Well, it seems i've underestimated the scout's information gathering abilites! *apologetic bow to the injured group* This info casts doubt over my hopes of beneficial agreements with the Svartlos, but at least we can say we tried to be nice if they decide to come take back the mine. Also we may well face unmotivated indebted mercenaries rather than a troop of loyal bright-eyed house warriors. :D I can see it now:

TK: "Hey mercs! Why don't you turn around and help us take out the Svartlos instead!"
Mercs: "Oh yeah? You don't look rich...you going to pay us?"
TK: "Nope! THEY are going to pay you when we're done 'convincing' them...they'de pay you triple I should think! *cunning grin* :D "
Mercs: ".. o_O ... *eek* ... }:3 "

Edit: is Bel'xullyn making rude gestures to her fellow nurse? o_O
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Re: Event Archive Day 33

Postby Jeriah on Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:09 pm

Idunyken wrote:Edit: is Bel'xullyn making rude gestures to her fellow nurse? o_O

((She'd hope not. That's her boss. Heh.

The scouts did confirm that the Svartelos are a shady group. From the rumors, all I glean from that is that they're shrewd business people. The other information I paid note to was the rumor that they have no interest in what can be exploited from a mine. So offering them a cut of the output of the mine may not be an acceptable chip to bring to the negotiating table, but we'll see. It would seem to imply that they trade in two things. Information and money. I don't know if we have any of the former that would be valuable to them and we certainly don't have any of the latter. What this may lead to is us taking a loan from them if we want to peacefully negotiate for mining rights. And if we do that, the last sentence of what the scouts reported may come in the form of absurdly high interest rates.))
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Re: Event Archive Day 33

Postby Hetros on Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:45 pm

I think we should deal with them until they try and swindle us... I don't want to turn into a warring clan, and that's all we've done... only fight... it's our secondary plan here, we try and deal, we check and triple check the documents of any trade alliances we make, and make doubly sure to read the small print. Anything that's vague we make sure to clarify, and dead fast refuse to budge. Frankly, we have more to lose than they do, their fighters are most likely mercenaries, and the fact about mercenaries is that they'll fight until they think the odds are against them, then take heel and run. I'm not at all saying that we can expect and easy fight if it comes to that, but we'll have an easier fight of it than if these guys actually planned on using and actually needed the mine.

Our crafted goods might be worth something, so is the ore we mine, and we fixed up the damn golems ourselves, we expanded the mine, made it far more valuable, so really, it all evens out. They can take a cut of the earnings, either directly from the ore or from any profits we make on the mine, and we make sure they don't charge interest, since they are putting nothing into it, we are. We can avoid debt by being smart and making sure they can't double cross us.

Also, I'd like to point out that if they DO try and take it by force, we can probably turn them aside, It wouldn't be too-too difficult... not unless they hire a combat mage, which I doubt they'll consider since we're a new clan and shouldn't be able to do anything. And also, guess what? Traps, if they prove necessary, are fairly easy to make via stone and earth affinity magic... you seriously could just make a thin layer of stone over a deep pit of spikes, any body stepping on it falls right through. Miners and Builders could do that with ease. And once we finish the armor, we can probably make more bows and arrows, and some of the warriors can train in using them...
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Re: Event Archive Day 33

Postby Finish on Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:08 am

We should think about things we can offer them and perhaps we should be careful If we make debts (at least I see no other way to keep the mine without a fight).

Perhaps they are willing to lower the price (I'm hope we can go down to 300 Ada) if we use a little threat: "Sure you can come and get the mine back by force. But then to golems are broken to pieces, the caves are collapse and filled with the smell of dead Kiri'su. And we tell the guys in the fortress on the other side about our little spy hole (even if the Svartelos don't know about it... have fun to explain that the Sarghress :D). Try to find another customer after that."

However that also could goes badly wrong, but if they believe us we are able to do that and not willing to lower the price, it may help.

And even if have the feeling that we can't trust them we should agree one a monthly payment if possible - that way we can buy time to perpare for a upcoming war.
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Re: Event Archive Day 33

Postby Idunyken on Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:53 am

... o_O We find out that they are swindling moneylenders and now people want to pay them stuff? I'm not sure we'll be able to outsmart them financially, it's been made clear that they have a reputation for shrewd dealing. I'm quite in favour of seeing if they have the stones to come and take it off us by force.
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Re: Event Archive Day 33

Postby kirio on Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:05 am

I think once the scouts get back with their information about Svartelos any thought of just buying the mine will be toast. I don't think abandoning negotiation would be necessary, but getting them to drop the idea of their ownership in exchange for a chance to market some of the product of the mine might be useful. These folks deal in information and could be useful to us. It doesn't appear that they have the military might to take us on head to head. If An'jhali goes into negotiations with caution, she can find out about the Svartelos Ill'har and something about her intentions toward us. Signing on to a deal could be a hassle later if she isn't careful about the details, but I think we have the muscle to handle that if things get too troublesome.
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Re: Event Archive Day 33

Postby Jeriah on Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:15 am

((Well, we could find ourselves in a catch-22 situation. Although we have goods that have value, the Svartelos might be a group who deals in cash only. If so, they'll probably only agree to 'lend' us the money to buy the mine and have us find buyers for said goods; not them. They're probably not traders like the ones that will visit us every month and accept any form of valuable good. Thus, goods and services could be 'worthless' to them. Given their reputation, it wouldn't surprise me if they try to make us a 'long term business partner'. The type that can only pay the interest on the interest, if you know what I mean.

We can refuse to take a loan, but then they'll be forced to take proper action since I don't see the TK backing away from the mine (And even if the Clan does, the Svartelos will probably still try to ding the TK for compensatory cash anyway). Although we can speculate that they'll only hire stereotypical mercenaries, the other cards they possess are their connections in Chel. If they have markers to call upon, they may summon warriors of other groups desperate to clear their debt. One can argue that it'd be 'bad business' to spend so much for so little gain, but the same can be said of certain mobster tactics. They are information brokers as well, so they also have the option of spreading false or misleading information.))
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Re: Event Archive Day 33

Postby kirio on Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:39 am

If it comes to that, Jeriah, we have the muscle to just walk away from the bargaining table. If they're not willing to deal with us honestly, f$&# 'em.
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Re: Event Archive Day 33

Postby Talancir on Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:12 am

Svartelos are a bunch of mouth-breathers. if things go bad we attack and we win because they are dee-dee-dees. *wee*
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Re: Event Archive Day 33

Postby Hetros on Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:19 am

Talancir wrote:Svartelos are a bunch of mouth-breathers. if things go bad we attack and we win because they are dee-dee-dees. *wee*

dee-dee-dees with tons of money who could probably hire enough mercinaries to kick our asses if we attacked. No.

we are under no circumstances, ready to attack anyone, not without a warmage.
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Re: Event Archive Day 33

Postby Meska369 on Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:42 am

they sound like mafia
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Re: Event Archive Day 33

Postby kirio on Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:10 pm

Meska369 wrote:they sound like mafia

That's basically what nobles in a stable feudal system are from the point of view of the merchant, labor, and farming classes. ^^;
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