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Re: EA, Day 22 Late: the big metal door, is opened!

Postby Thalar on Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:07 am

Robert_Frazer wrote:
Don't you think they have means of communicating with their home base? Don't you think there are outposts they have passed on the way to us, which can confirm when they were there and when they left? Don't you think the Nal'sarkoth will, with the resources a great clan has at its disposal, come to the inevitable conclusion that something happened to their caravan in our cavern? And, given how the Nal'sarkoth are the great clan hanging most precariously to their power (with, perhaps, the exception of the Beldrobbaen), don't you think they could rather retaliate first, and ask questions later?


No, actually, I don't. The Val'Nal'Sarkoth are businessmen, and they care about turning a profit - and if they are in an insecure position as you claim, then that's equally going to restrain them from sprinting off at half-cock and squandering valuable lives (expensive investments even if drow don't care for the integrity of life) and resources on a wild goose chase. They will not attack us unless they're sure we're the culprits - and as I've already explained, ad nauseam, clean-up will be a simple thing to achieve.


Squandering valuable lives? They'll squash us like the bugs we are and the mercenaries we may have killed during our valiant last stand against the Nal'sarkoth will be easily replaced.

They don't need to be certain we are the culprits - we are a ragtag bunch of ruin squatters with no business being in Chel'el'Sussoloth, with no allies by our side, with no defenses beyond a mere handful of warriors with only the barest necessities in terms of equipment. They lose nothing at slaughtering us for a mere suspicion that we are behind the loss of their trade caravan.

Do yourself a favor and do a loss-benefit calculation from the side of the Nal'sarkoth before you start spouting off again about how they won't attack us because they'll lose valuable lives (which, considering the majority of their forces are mercenaries, have an exact ada-value which you can be certain they are bringing into the calculation), in an attack on a tiny, underequipped bunch of squatters.

This isn't a game we are guaranteed to win, like you seem to believe.
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Re: EA, Day 22 Late: the big metal door, is opened!

Postby Meska369 on Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:16 am

Both methods, Peacefull trade or Pillage can have the same short term effects. Some stuff for now. The long term reprecussions will be much differant.

The way od peace nets us some goods for now. It nets us MORE... much more goods in the future.

The violent way nets us more goods now. It nets us ZERO goods in future.

I've done the math. Short term gains do not a war win.

Also....

I'm a girl... I LIKE TO SHOP!!!!!!

DON'T KILL OFF MY ONLY OPORTUNITY TO DO IT REGULARLY!!!

*crying* *crying* *crying*
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Re: EA, Day 22 Late: the big metal door, is opened!

Postby Robert_Frazer on Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:17 am

It's half-one and I'm heading off to bed now, but I'll just repost this edit here as it was ninja-posted at the bottom of the previous page:

I'd also venture that you're also exaggerating the Val'Nal'Sarkoth's presence, Thalar. You may say that it's careful and cautious - but I say it's timid and alarmist, if not paranoid. The Nal'Sarkoth have interests in the wider underworld, yes, but you're acting as though there's a phone booth on the highway every half-mile. How does a mob of near-destitute vagabonds - which, let's not mince words, is what we are - signify, especially when we've thoroughly scrubbed the place? As you've said yourself, we're beneath consideration as a threat! Anything could have happened to a caravan along its route, threats much more well-known - and much more credible (more fool them) - than us: cave-ins, dwarven raiders, xulie scavengers, poisonous forage, rival clans that the Nal'Sarkoth are already in open competition or hostility with. Take your pick!

As a brief addendum:

The violent way nets us more goods now. It nets us ZERO goods in future.


Why do you assume this? There'll be other caravans, ones we can trade with on a more equal level when we're more securely established (and you'll have much more currency then to go shopping with for bigger and prettier things, Meska! :w ), and a whole city to explore as well.
Last edited by Robert_Frazer on Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:25 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: EA, Day 22 Late: the big metal door, is opened!

Postby Kir'ima on Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:18 am

All I can say is that if the clan comes to any kind of grief at all over that IMO idiotic vote option, I will personally list the LA vote option: "Exile Danikin out the cavern the way we came, and let mana deprivation finish the job."

This is of course assuming we do not execute him outright first. *ooo*
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Re: EA, Day 22 Late: the big metal door, is opened!

Postby Meska369 on Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:40 am

HEY!!! *omfg* *omfg*

No one touches my TECH! :[ :[

*hugs him to her* :( :(

He has his own opinions, and while I might not share them, he is allowed to have em as well as express them. :) :)

*grins and give D a hair ruffle* 8P 8P

Besides, he does have his points. Also, I would like to keep my man/woman power for now. It's hard to find good help. :P
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Re: EA, Day 22 Late: the big metal door, is opened!

Postby Thalar on Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:46 am

Robert_Frazer wrote:I'd also venture that you're also exaggerating the Val'Nal'Sarkoth's presence, Thalar. You may say that it's careful and cautious - but I say it's timid and alarmist, if not paranoid. The Nal'Sarkoth have interests in the wider underworld, yes, but you're acting as though there's a phone booth on the highway every half-mile. How does a mob of near-destitute vagabonds - which, let's not mince words, is what we are - signify, especially when we've thoroughly scrubbed the place? As you've said yourself, we're beneath consideration as a threat! Anything could have happened to a caravan along its route, threats much more well-known - and much more credible (more fool them) - than us: cave-ins, dwarven raiders, rival clans that the Nal'Sarkoth are already in open competition or hostility with. Take your pick!


Oh absolutely, there are many threats against a caravan, but these traders already knew the ruins used to house bandits.
Putting us on the list of well-known threats.

A mob of near-destitute vagabonds, living in a place which is known to house bandits, in the middle of their trade route, and then the caravan doesn't come home when it's supposed to? And the group of vagabonds which might as well just be another bandit group, suddenly flaunt clothing (or other fabric use) of obvious halme make, like the fabric the caravan was supposed to bring home? Or when we start trading our stolen goods for other goods, and this information makes its way back to the Nal'sarkoth..

Or do you propose we would hide our stolen goods for a few centuries before making use of them?

Surface goods are not common, so forget any ideas about being able to conceal their being traded off by the people who stole them.

If they chose not to deal with the known threat in the past, it was likely because the bandit group never successfully raided this merchant caravan. But they would not fail to deal with it if your plan were to succeed. And you realize they would at the very least send a patrol to find out what happened, and the first thing that patrol would meet would be us.

You tell me I exaggerate, but I pose that you are in fact over-simplifying the situation and underestimating our opposition.

Robert_Frazer wrote:As a brief addendum:

The violent way nets us more goods now. It nets us ZERO goods in future.


Why does everyone assume this? There'll be other caravans, ones we can trade with on a more equal level when we're more securely established, and a whole city to explore as well.


Why do you assume we are not established? We have enough food to not only feed the entire clan and its slaves and beasts, but we also have a large surplus. We have water, we have weapons and armor is being made. We have found a mine and are starting work to extract its resources.

Our lives are not hanging in a precarious balance between life and death from which only banditry can save us.

We do not need that grain to survive.
We do not need that fabric to survive.

I don't know if you've been paying attention, but we're well past the point where we should have to debase ourselves to be able eke out a mere survival in a hostile place.

We have just gotten up to the status of unknown clan, moving up from "refugees". That this transition wasn't properly celebrated and made note of, is sad, but it does mean that our lives aren't about day to day survival any more. It is about establishing a future. And starting that future by attacking a trade caravan which ought to be our first step into the world of Chel'el'Sussoloth trade, is just sad. You yourself admit that we will need to go into trading at some point. Well, I put to you that this is that point.
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Re: EA, Day 22 Late: the big metal door, is opened!

Postby Kir'ima on Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:49 am

Meska369 wrote:HEY!!! *omfg* *omfg*

No one touches my TECH! :[ :[

*hugs him to her* :( :(

He has his own opinions, and while I might not share them, he is allowed to have em as well as express them. :) :)

*grins and give D a hair ruffle* 8P 8P

Besides, he does have his points. Also, I would like to keep my man/woman power for now. It's hard to find good help. :P

Yes, he can have his opinions, and he can also take responsibility for his words and actions.
If his stupid option causes us grief or worse, injuries or deaths, then all bets are off. 8P

And I will find you another tech.
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Re: EA, Day 22 Late: the big metal door, is opened!

Postby Lt Anders on Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:50 am

WAR QUOTES AND PEACE QUOTES!(sorry you guys seem to be having to much fun!)

Armed forces abroad are of little value unless there is prudent counsel at home.

Silent enim leges inter arma

Alea iacta est

They have an abundance of gold and silver, and these make war, like other things, go smoothly.

Nobody is driven in to war by ignorance, and no one who thinks he will gain anything from it is deterred by fear.

A wise man in times of peace prepares for war.

The gods favour the bold.

A good general not only sees the way to victory, he also knows when victory is impossible.

In war we must always leave room for strokes of fortune, and accidents that cannot be foreseen.

The wise man speaks because he has something to say, the fool because he has to say something

Ok that's enough advice from famous people. And, I'm against the an attack. I'm a trader at heart(even in war games, economy always comes before army)

Edit: forgot the translations, my bad.

1) Laws are silent in times of war
2)The die is cast

Edit2: New quote!
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Re: EA, Day 22 Late: the big metal door, is opened!

Postby Novusod on Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:52 am

Just because we sack one caravan does not mean we have to pursue a policy of total war against the Nal'sarkoth. When they come for vengeance at a later date with armies we can sue for peace and decline to fight. Even if they do a 180 on us and give in to typical drow bloodlust we can retreat and hide in the mines and as long they don't kill the Ill'haress it is not the end of the world. In terms of cost-benefit long term occupation costs would be utterly ruinous to the Nal'sarkoth. Their mercenaries will only fight as long as they are being paid. They would need a quick strategic victory over us to win the conflict. If we don't get checkmated on the fist move we would come ahead.

This is our land and we can take this caravan if we want to and be morally justified in doing so. Why wasn't there this type of opposition given to taking the ruins from slaves who lived there? The slaves had more of a right to these ruins and this cavern then we did. Certainly the slaves were more justified in being in this cavern than this trader caravan. I think we have our moral sense tied on back wards if we think it is OK seize lands that clearly are not ours but then become squeamish about tossing parasitic traders off land we now claim. Are we now turning over sovereignty of this cavern to this Nal'sarkoth or is this Tei'kaliath country?

Well I say "This is Tei'kaliath!!!"
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Re: EA, Day 22 Late: the big metal door, is opened!

Postby PenDragon on Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:10 am

I thought that this discussion was closed, but apparently I was wrong. Is Danikin going to shake the monkey's tree again?

I don't think his idea is bad, but we're past the point where petty banditry and greed will do us any good. It's time to look beyond instant gratification and start establishing ourselves as a CLAN, not a pack of organized muggers. Lor'tohm's days of crime are over, thank-you-very-much.

Besides, it's not wise to gamble over a shipment of cloth and various miscellaneous goods. If the die is cast and we lose, we'll have a hell of a time trying to fix this mess (assuming it can be fixed at all). In reality, we all spent months of playing this game to build up these ruins that we wanted so badly, and I think it's in bad taste to suggest something that can cause everyone's hard work be flushed down the drain because of unabashed greed.

I know I said this in a previous post that obviously got buried under a pile of detritus and emoticons, but the Nal'sarkoth, while business-savvy, will not hesitate digging into their pockets for the extra money to grind the Tei'kaliath into dust. As I once said, there is such a thing as PRIDE, and any self-respecting Great Clan will make an example out of those who rub them the wrong way. We are no exception.

It's just not worth the risk. We'll let this one go in peace. However, if another caravan stops by and starts trouble with us we'll consider making them disappear. *evileye*
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Re: EA, Day 22 Late: the big metal door, is opened!

Postby Thalar on Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:20 am

Novusod wrote:Just because we sack one caravan does not mean we have to pursue a policy of total war against the Nal'sarkoth. When they come for vengeance at a later date with armies we can sue for peace and decline to fight.


Decline to fight? Do you think a small group of say, 500 Nal'sarkoth soldiers, are going to stop their progress because 21 soldiers decline to fight them?

Novusod wrote:Even if they do a 180 on us and give in to typical drow bloodlust we can retreat and hide in the mines and as long they don't kill the Ill'haress it is not the end of the world.


If they kill the majority of the clan, there is nothing left for our Ilharess to rule over. The game would end as surely as it would with her death.

Novusod wrote:In terms of cost-benefit long term occupation costs would be utterly ruinous to the Nal'sarkoth. Their mercenaries will only fight as long as they are being paid. They would need a quick strategic victory over us to win the conflict. If we don't get checkmated on the fist move we would come ahead.


You speak as if the Nal'sarkoth are a group of people with a size similar to our own. The Nal'sarkoth are among the richest of the Great Clans of Chel'el'Sussoloth, and they are able to hold on to that Great Clan status by virtue of both alliances, armed forces, and trade ties to the surface. Claiming that they could not field the cost of exterminating 210 people (of which only 21 are warriors) because said 210 people decline to fight or hide in a mine, is ridiculous at best. Heck, all they'd have to do would be to collapse the mine entrance after we took refuge inside.

We're not even on the same scale as the Nal'sarkoth.

Novusod wrote:This is our land and we can take this caravan if we want to and be morally justified in doing so. Why wasn't there this type of opposition given to taking the ruins from slaves who lived there? The slaves had more of a right to these ruins and this cavern then we did. Certainly the slaves were more justified in being in this cavern than this trader caravan. I think we have our moral sense tied on back wards if we think it is OK seize lands that clearly are not ours but then become squeamish about tossing parasitic traders off land we now claim. Are we now turning over sovereignty of this cavern to this Nal'sarkoth or is this Tei'kaliath country?


How exactly are the traders parasitic to us? Are they siphoning off resources somehow?
And how does building trade relations with a merchant caravan constitute turning over sovereignty of our home to another clan? Please do enlighten us.

The slaves were only squatting in these ruins because they were unable to start new lives after liberating themselves, choosing rather to huddle together in a ruin far away from civilization, in utter fear of what would inevitably happen. They made no claim to territory beyond the ruins, nor did they eventually stand up and defend their claim. We gave them the opportunity to join with us, or to leave in peace, and they spat on our offer, which prompted the more direct takeover. But back then, we were no different from them except for our unified front against their weak and failing cameraderie. We needed a place to live as much as they did, and as it turns out, they didn't even try to resist, except for the one ex-gladiator.

Novusod wrote:Well I say "This is Tei'kaliath!!!"


You know what happened to the 300? They died.
That is not dead which may eternal lie, and with aeons even death may die.

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Re: EA, Day 22 Late: the big metal door, is opened!

Postby PenDragon on Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:31 am

Thalar wrote:
Novusod wrote:Well I say "This is Tei'kaliath!!!"


You know what happened to the 300? They died.

That's exactly what I was thinking. *lol*

Why are we even being compared to Spartans anyway? *upset* Personally, I think that movie was an abomination, and uttering the words "This is [INSERT NAME]!!!" should be punishable by death. *evileye*

(No offense to our War Master, who seems to like the phrase a little too much. ^^; )
If something seems too good to be true, you're supposed to shoot it just in case.
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Re: EA, Day 22 Late: the big metal door, is opened!

Postby DarkVolt on Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:11 am

PenDragon wrote:
Thalar wrote:
Novusod wrote:Well I say "This is Tei'kaliath!!!"


You know what happened to the 300? They died.

That's exactly what I was thinking. *lol*

Why are we even being compared to Spartans anyway? *upset* Personally, I think that movie was an abomination, and uttering the words "This is [INSERT NAME]!!!" should be punishable by death. *evileye*

(No offense to our War Master, who seems to like the phrase a little too much. ^^; )

I think it's the shirtlessness. XD
*nitpicks* one spartan survived */nitpicks*
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Re: EA, Day 22 Late: the big metal door, is opened!

Postby Meska369 on Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:17 am

That movie was based on Actual Historic events. They did succeed in stopping the invaders long enough for greece to get it's act together and pushed them back to persia. It was one of the best tactical manuvers I have seen in my study of Battle.

Yes, The movie is Fancifull in it's depictation. but I rather liked it for it. I like cute guys with little clothing, ripped guys... It was wonderfull.... ;) ;)

But, we are not them. We are our own people. I'm not sure I want us to be the Spartans. Chel already has a Militaristic Clan. I want us to be something different.

Ooooo. Maybe we can be historians. hee.
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Re: EA, Day 22 Late: the big metal door, is opened!

Postby PenDragon on Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:53 am

"Frank Miller's 300?" Actual Historic Events? Are you sure we're talking about the same movie, Meska?

Not to sound like a history snob, but aside from following the general context of the Battle of Thermopylae Pass, that movie is about as far removed from actual history as Ill'haress An'jhali's' butt is from the dark side of the moons.

But I don't want to make this a discussion on historical accuracy... ^^; You're absolutely right. Case in point, we're not Spartans. Let's try not to end up like the 300 did; shirtless and dead.
If something seems too good to be true, you're supposed to shoot it just in case.
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