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Another direction with the cameos

Re: Another direction with the cameos

Postby Reva » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:03 pm

Blueberry126 wrote: Now it seems she hasn't learned anything from her own recklessness, which will probably be the death of her one day. I would therefore like to see less 'nudge nugde wink wink's to us readers in the comic. It became a bit bothersome after a while.

Good to know I'm not the only that thought it was kind of lame. It's not even really interactive, it's just "Cheer for Kiel so she won't fall flat and die".

Anyway, I think the cameos present the same problems as comics with big teams of writers and editors. Visions clash and the result tends to be not as regular and smooth. In a way, it's easier to have many people providing content, but making the content cohesive is much harder. But then again, pretty much nothing about writing is easy.
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Re: Another direction with the cameos

Postby H'K'Maly » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:39 pm

Reva wrote:
Blueberry126 wrote: Now it seems she hasn't learned anything from her own recklessness, which will probably be the death of her one day. I would therefore like to see less 'nudge nugde wink wink's to us readers in the comic. It became a bit bothersome after a while.

Good to know I'm not the only that thought it was kind of lame. It's not even really interactive, it's just "Cheer for Kiel so she won't fall flat and die".


If you want interactive, go Daydream. The story is written beforehand and Kern even have buffer of several pre-draw pages.

And while I agree that Kiel should learn from her recklessness, I don't see it as bad writing. If Kiel would listen to us more, others would complain that the 4th wall is too broken :)

Reva wrote:Anyway, I think the cameos present the same problems as comics with big teams of writers and editors. Visions clash and the result tends to be not as regular and smooth. In a way, it's easier to have many people providing content, but making the content cohesive is much harder. But then again, pretty much nothing about writing is easy.


... and this problem will be worse when there will be more cameos. I mean per chapter, although I'm glad some cameos bought another occurrence too. I hope Kern will keep the number reasonable.

Leopardwerecat wrote:
Argron wrote: Now they are cute goats that lick sealing stones, because a cameo summons cute goats that you can pet.


You mean that HER can pet. The mere fact she summoned them to battle suggest they are not supposed to be completely harmless. I think that what she does is actually dangerous and proves she fits Vlozs.

Leopardwerecat wrote:In the war summoners would go out of their way to summon the more destructive, or to put it simply, 'carnivorous' types of demons: Horrors, the bestial type, and gluttons, purely because they're the most dangerous. however it's been thought that there aren't just 'carnivore' aggressive types, but the demonic equivalent of herbivores too. There's an infinite amount of different netherplanes with an infinite variety of different demons that inhabit them (ver'aku, vel'akars, etc).

It isn't completely destroying canon if there's one summoner who prefers to summon non-dangerous (for the most part, they still eat mana and can possess someone) demons.


Agree. Different types of demons WERE already mentioned before Fame's goats, so the goats are actually good example. And Vloz summoner being crazy is nothing new either.
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Re: Another direction with the cameos

Postby Reva » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:58 pm

H'K'Maly wrote:
Reva wrote:
Blueberry126 wrote: Now it seems she hasn't learned anything from her own recklessness, which will probably be the death of her one day. I would therefore like to see less 'nudge nugde wink wink's to us readers in the comic. It became a bit bothersome after a while.

Good to know I'm not the only that thought it was kind of lame. It's not even really interactive, it's just "Cheer for Kiel so she won't fall flat and die".


If you want interactive, go Daydream. The story is written beforehand and Kern even have buffer of several pre-draw pages.

And while I agree that Kiel should learn from her recklessness, I don't see it as bad writing. If Kiel would listen to us more, others would complain that the 4th wall is too broken :)

I guess I didn't see much of a point to it. We weren't doing anything interesting (in fact, couldn't do anything interesting because of the limits to the interaction) so it was just there. Then it came up again and I sat there thinking, "oookay, why are we still doing that?"

Oh dear, the 4th wall has been gone for a looong while. No point crying over it unless you are hoping for a complete rewrite xD (I spoke the doomed word, didn't I?).

H'K'Maly wrote:
Reva wrote:Anyway, I think the cameos present the same problems as comics with big teams of writers and editors. Visions clash and the result tends to be not as regular and smooth. In a way, it's easier to have many people providing content, but making the content cohesive is much harder. But then again, pretty much nothing about writing is easy.


... and this problem will be worse when there will be more cameos. I mean per chapter, although I'm glad some cameos bought another occurrence too. I hope Kern will keep the number reasonable.

Wait, the number of cameos is set to increase or is this a hypothetical situation we are talking about?

I think the number won't increase too much because of a basic limiting factor: Kern has to draw the character-scheme thing for most cameos. Unless a lot of the new cameos were provided by artists with pre-made sheets, I don't think the guy's hand would stand a big increase on the workload. Trust me, RSI and tendinitis aren't funny :(
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Re: Another direction with the cameos

Postby Whizzard » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:43 am

Next chapter is about Kyorl and it has a ton of cameos. 24 to be exact. Now before you complain, DT has very few known Kyorl characters. What cameos have done is to give Kern characters to populate the Kyorl with instead of dreaming up a horde of new distinctive characters that interact with each other. Trust me, dreaming up 24 characters is a hard task. It's a win-win for both parties.

As for how odd they will the be, well, some of them will be zealous to the max considering that the chapter is about Kyorl's internal struggle. There will be different groups with different goals.

Talking about weird, order of the Twin Eye will be hard to top. Go read chapter 12 to see what the truly odd non average character are like. Also, since we haven't seen Kyorl much, you can only compare the cameos with... well, the order of Twin Eye. XD

If more than few cameos are wackier than that bunch (remember, there are bound to be extremeists in the next chapter and extrememists tend to be wacky), then I'll begrudgingly will accept my defeat and ungracefully agree that the cameos are over the top.

As for the Twin Eyes, I think and hope they are heavily featured in that chapter.
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Re: Another direction with the cameos

Postby H'K'Maly » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:33 am

Reva wrote:I guess I didn't see much of a point to it. We weren't doing anything interesting (in fact, couldn't do anything interesting because of the limits to the interaction) so it was just there. Then it came up again and I sat there thinking, "oookay, why are we still doing that?"


... I think this was actually experiment. I mean, in second case people would be supposed to know how it will work. And yes, I think the experiment failed too.

Reva wrote:Oh dear, the 4th wall has been gone for a looong while. No point crying over it unless you are hoping for a complete rewrite xD (I spoke the doomed word, didn't I?).


As someone reading a LOT of webcomics including the heavy crossover ones, I KNOW how it looks if the 4th wall is gone. Believe me, it's still solid here. Two examples: Strange candy and Cameo Comic.

Reva wrote:Wait, the number of cameos is set to increase or is this a hypothetical situation we are talking about?


Whizzard wrote:Next chapter is about Kyorl and it has a ton of cameos. 24 to be exact. Now before you complain, DT has very few known Kyorl characters. What cameos have done is to give Kern characters to populate the Kyorl with instead of dreaming up a horde of new distinctive characters that interact with each other. Trust me, dreaming up 24 characters is a hard task. It's a win-win for both parties.


Yes ... this will be VERY though. Truly the test of Kern's cameo-directing abilities.
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Re: Another direction with the cameos

Postby Blueberry126 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:15 pm

Dalvyserran wrote:the point of the matter is that this topic is for people voicing their opinions on cameos, not overpowered characters ^^;


My point was still relevant to the cameos, as Kiel's blob demons are supposed to be 'us', the readers, so they're cameos just as well. And I still think they got too much attention this chapter. I don't think what we are saying here on the forums should appear in the comic at all. It was funny, but also weird. Well, to me it was.
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Re: Another direction with the cameos

Postby Blueberry126 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:18 pm

24 cameos? That's...a lot. I know I said earlier how I support cameos, but I also think a certain degree of moderation is obligatory. As long as they fit into the story and the universe, I don't have a problem with it though. I just hope people won't go to extremes and turn every character into a religious fanatic. It would only stigmatize the Kyorls even more than they are already now. Let's talk about characters, not caricatures, eh.
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Re: Another direction with the cameos

Postby Miburo » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:52 pm

Blueberry126 wrote:24 cameos? That's...a lot. I know I said earlier how I support cameos, but I also think a certain degree of moderation is obligatory. As long as they fit into the story and the universe, I don't have a problem with it though. I just hope people won't go to extremes and turn every character into a religious fanatic. It would only stigmatize the Kyorls even more than they are already now. Let's talk about characters, not caricatures, eh.


I think you shouldn't be too worried about the next batch of cameos, Since Kern gave each cameo owner the task to choose if their character valued their order, their leader or their comrades first. I think this forced people to really think out their character in term of personality and motivation (I know it gave me a bit of work).
And seeing as how the characters are split in the latest newspost I hope for a very balanced cast of cameos
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Re: Another direction with the cameos

Postby Reva » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:25 pm

H'K'Maly wrote:
Reva wrote:I guess I didn't see much of a point to it. We weren't doing anything interesting (in fact, couldn't do anything interesting because of the limits to the interaction) so it was just there. Then it came up again and I sat there thinking, "oookay, why are we still doing that?"


... I think this was actually experiment. I mean, in second case people would be supposed to know how it will work. And yes, I think the experiment failed too.

That's actually a point of view I hadn't considered. Now I think I have to agree, it did look kind of experimental.

H'K'Maly wrote:Yes ... this will be VERY though. Truly the test of Kern's cameo-directing abilities.

Twenty-four :@ Holy Sharess on a pogostick.
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Re: Another direction with the cameos

Postby Mizu » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:03 pm

Whizzard wrote:I actually don't see what's the problem. So far most outrageous character in whole chapter 41 has been... Nirn'aya, a non-cameo character who has been in the story for ages. She has incredible combat talent, near cheating ability of flying daggers, impregnable armor and is nearly unshakeable in a chase. If she was a main character and not actually dumb in her attempts to play three sides at once I'd say she's very Mary Sue.



Considering the fact that the Empress has been killed multiple times under her watch despite all that? She is closer to a butt monkey then a Mary Sue.


As for the general complaint of 'well, what is the point of having quirks if they barely show up anyway'? To make the character feel more alive to people who are in deep enough to go looking at the side materials (it isn't like it is hard, most cameos have a hyper link to their page under the MA pages they show up on). They get promoted from red shirt background pieces to mauve shirt characters that you might actually feel something for when they get killed.


...How much do Cameos cost again, anyway? I have enough money saved up from work that I might be able to persuade myself to buy one in the near future.
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Re: Another direction with the cameos

Postby Catriana » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:18 pm

Blueberry126 wrote:24 cameos? That's...a lot. I know I said earlier how I support cameos, but I also think a certain degree of moderation is obligatory. As long as they fit into the story and the universe, I don't have a problem with it though. I just hope people won't go to extremes and turn every character into a religious fanatic. It would only stigmatize the Kyorls even more than they are already now. Let's talk about characters, not caricatures, eh.


There is a war going on, there is a need for soldiers. Kern can either throw in a bunch of random Kyorl'solenurn, or he can give the readers an unique chance to play a part. Regardless, those positions need to be filled. One of the benefits of having individuals bring in their characters is for the purposes of diversity. And Kern knows his story well enough that if things need to be changed, he will contact the individual. There are a lot of things that go on in the background when these cameo slots are filled, and that should be taken into consideration.
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Re: Another direction with the cameos

Postby MEK1724 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:59 am

Mizu wrote:...How much do Cameos cost again, anyway? I have enough money saved up from work that I might be able to persuade myself to buy one in the near future.

$150 with no concept art , 200 with .
Blueberry126 wrote:24 cameos? That's...a lot. I know I said earlier how I support cameos, but I also think a certain degree of moderation is obligatory.

He had like over 20 people in chapter 12 who weren't part of the main crew . Now half of them weren't particularly speaking or screen time heavy characters , but not all the cameos are either .
And you can count like 10 people in Chapter 25 who get a large amount of face design .
I'm sure they've got a rough idea of what they're doing .
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Re: Another direction with the cameos

Postby Kaiser » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:22 am

My own $0.02

Some cameos work, some don't, some are barely even noticeable or distinct from background characters. I won't name names, but the criteria that sets them apart is different in each case and the success or failure of each cameo depends largely on the context in which they're placed. Hell, once a cameo makes a couple appearances they sort of become a full fledged character in their own right. I do think we should still have them but maybe dial back on the quantity a little bit. This chapter is a good example of cameo-established character balance. However, chapter 40 suffered a bit from the sheer abundance of cameos due to their supplementation of the non-cameo supporting cast.
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Re: Another direction with the cameos

Postby Mizu » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:39 am

$150 with no concept art , 200 with .


*wince*

Ugh, I was hoping it was more in the 50-75ish dollar range. I mean, I am going to break down and do it eventually, I am too much of a nerd and fan of the series to pass up something like getting to put my own character in the story. It is just a matter of how long it takes me to wear myself down on being willing to cough up that much money.
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Re: Another direction with the cameos

Postby Strossus » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:29 am

Mizu wrote:
$150 with no concept art , 200 with .


*wince*

Ugh, I was hoping it was more in the 50-75ish dollar range. I mean, I am going to break down and do it eventually, I am too much of a nerd and fan of the series to pass up something like getting to put my own character in the story. It is just a matter of how long it takes me to wear myself down on being willing to cough up that much money.


Even with so many and the price they are at they fill up fast.
For me the trick is having it ready before the slots are all used up. xD
I end up spending it on video games. >.>
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