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How has your opinion of Quain changed?

How do the events of the last few pages effect your view of Quain?

I used to be a big Quain fan. Now I'm not.
2
2%
I never was a big Quain fan. This confirms it.
26
22%
I still like her.
34
29%
I like Quain more now.
15
13%
I used to respect Quain as a leader burdened by her own success, but now... (explain below).
17
15%
I don't care, but I do like voting in polls.
5
4%
I don't know what to think.
8
7%
Other (explain below).
9
8%
 
Total votes : 116

Re: How has your opinion of Quain changed?

Postby Sionyx » Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:24 am

fudje wrote:
Sionyx wrote:I've been questioning Quain's methods since this scene. and the next page. Pay attention to Ariel - she's reaching for a sword, and a quick death for Mir'kin, and Quain hands her a mace instead, making Mir'kin's death...not so quick. He was a little jackass, but he didn't deserve that.


Don't know about that. Unlike swords, maces are effective even in the hands of an amateur. At this point, Ariel hadn't been trained (to handle a sword a little, well yes, but to cleanly kill with one?)


I'm guessing she knew where the heart was at that point, or how to go for the throat. I can't shake the feeling that Mir'kin's death was messier than it needed to be, is all. I don't know enough about weapons to be sure, though, so I'll accept your point.
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Re: How has your opinion of Quain changed?

Postby MEK1724 » Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:57 am

Sionyx wrote:
fudje wrote:
Sionyx wrote:I've been questioning Quain's methods since this scene. and the next page. Pay attention to Ariel - she's reaching for a sword, and a quick death for Mir'kin, and Quain hands her a mace instead, making Mir'kin's death...not so quick. He was a little jackass, but he didn't deserve that.


Don't know about that. Unlike swords, maces are effective even in the hands of an amateur. At this point, Ariel hadn't been trained (to handle a sword a little, well yes, but to cleanly kill with one?)


I'm guessing she knew where the heart was at that point, or how to go for the throat. I can't shake the feeling that Mir'kin's death was messier than it needed to be, is all. I don't know enough about weapons to be sure, though, so I'll accept your point.

Well actually this says that Quain picked the mace so the death would take longer . It was more so Ariel was desensitized to death , and doesn't choke so much on the battlefield when she causes it , rather then Quain being a sadist ( well she might be , but that's not the only reason she did it) .
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Re: How has your opinion of Quain changed?

Postby Sionyx » Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:14 am

MEK1724 wrote: Well actually this says that Quain picked the mace so the death would take longer . It was more so Ariel was desensitized to death , and doesn't choke so much on the battlefield when she causes it , rather then Quain being a sadist ( well she might be , but that's not the only reason she did it) .


Woo, I actually got that right? Yay!

Hem...

All things considered, I think it's going to end up being a very good thing Naal got through to Ariel about killing and death. Quain, Jr. is NOT what Chel's gonna need.
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Re: How has your opinion of Quain changed?

Postby fudje » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:37 am

Sionyx wrote:Quain, Jr. is NOT what Chel's gonna need.


It might be if the plan is to return to the surface (and depending on diplomatic advancement with the other fae and ‘goblin’ races).
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Re: How has your opinion of Quain changed?

Postby Sionyx » Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:02 am

fudje wrote:
Sionyx wrote:Quain, Jr. is NOT what Chel's gonna need.


It might be if the plan is to return to the surface (and depending on diplomatic advancement with the other fae and ‘goblin’ races).


Someone who's WILLING to fight, yes. Ariel's going to need that to be an elven leader. Someone who looks at returning to the surface as conquering, like Quain does? Not so much. Between less mana available on the surface and the humans and orcs greater numbers, recolonization could get PAINFUL for the drow. True, they may win eventually, but they'll take losses getting there.
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Re: How has your opinion of Quain changed?

Postby Junglefowl26 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:04 am

Sionyx wrote:
fudje wrote:
Sionyx wrote:Quain, Jr. is NOT what Chel's gonna need.


It might be if the plan is to return to the surface (and depending on diplomatic advancement with the other fae and ‘goblin’ races).


Someone who's WILLING to fight, yes. Ariel's going to need that to be an elven leader. Someone who looks at returning to the surface as conquering, like Quain does? Not so much. Between less mana available on the surface and the humans and orcs greater numbers, recolonization could get PAINFUL for the drow. True, they may win eventually, but they'll take losses getting there.

True...but that is a situation that will get worse the longer you wait, not better. The more time they waist, the more the goblins' numbers grow, and the more advanced the goblins will get.
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Re: How has your opinion of Quain changed?

Postby fudje » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:07 am

One question to ask is why is there "less mana available" on the surface?
Chirinide's little trek to the light elves showed somewhat that there are at least places where magicks work reasonably well still. From that, I'd conject that the reason for mana channeling being less tiring within Chel'el'sussoloth is technology - ie. gemstones being distributed about the place and the like. I'd further conject that the techniques for this would have been necessary (to the Drow) to learn after going underground as natural formations of mana holding stones would be few and far between (ie. no massive resource like the faewoods). Exploration and excavation teams would have taken stored essence with them to hold underworld threats at bay....
So, what's to stop a resourceful army from, eg strapping to golem a far larger gemstone than it needs, helping to power the casters around it? *omfg*
Don't forget also that recently the Sarghress have learned of amber "stones" made from tree sap (which surely is also written down in libraries elsewhere in Chel)

It's additionally possible that you may be putting far more weight into the problem — not only are the non-fae races so scared of magic that a little light show could give them cause to lay down arms and surrender, but Ariel, who most seem to believe is about as dumb as a box of rocks, learned quite quickly to perform high sorcery without tiring herself out too much.
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Re: How has your opinion of Quain changed?

Postby Junglefowl26 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:11 am

^ The Halmes are scared of magic (Some of them anyway, the people of Haltonreibe seem to be Drow allies). The Hermione just hate it. (And even then, the castle troops were just a few stragglers, already feeling uneasy because of the king's rituals, and under the effect of magically induced fear. Not all victories would come so easy.)
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Re: How has your opinion of Quain changed?

Postby H'K'Maly » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:06 pm

Junglefowl26 wrote:
This is the fatal flaw in her character right here. How the hell does she think the Val became Val to begin with? Exactly the same thing she's doing. You cant change the basic nature of people, no matter how many arms you break. Quain should have stayed a merc and an explorer -then she'd been one of the most bad-assed characters in the story -as she is she's only a pathetic pawn in a war she cant win. I'd excuse her as being ignorant of history, except she doesnt seem to be in the slightest.

Personally, I would say her fatal flaw is pride...or maybe stubbornness, though you could say the two qualities are connected.
As to the other part. I don't know.....it was only a few hundred years ago that every nation on earth was monarchy of some sort, and now there are very few. Yes, there are still rich people and poor people, and only a few people ever really move from one category to another, but there is still a big difference between that and legalized, monopolistic feudal system. systems, even the oldest and strongest of them, can be broken.


You are counting incorrectly. It was only around ten generations. Drow generations are longer, the change will come slower. Probably not so much slower but it can take them thousands of years.

Nowhere Girl wrote:Just to throw it out there, the whole "what Quain did is fine within the context of her society" excuse is a fairly weak one. What the Nazis did makes perfect sense in the context of Germany's culture from 1933-1943, but few try to make that excuse for them.


First, what Nazis did was in context of whole WORLD of 1933-1943 and THAT'S why it was perceived as being so bad. Thousand years before people were doing worse things and are still considered heroes.

Second, I actually think there was plenty of Nazis making that "I was only following orders" excuse.

fudje wrote:One question to ask is why is there "less mana available" on the surface?


Because there is more of surface and less fae there. It's only question of concentration. It's the fae who generates mana. Gems only stores it.
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Re: How has your opinion of Quain changed?

Postby Ra'tatosk » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:18 am

H'K'Maly wrote:
fudje wrote:One question to ask is why is there "less mana available" on the surface?


Because there is more of surface and less fae there. It's only question of concentration. It's the fae who generates mana. Gems only stores it.

That is not the only cause of lack of mana on the surface. In the Moons age there were a lot of manaproducing plants. All that vegetation - vast forrests among them, were destroyed in the demonwars at the end of Moons age. But as we have seen later in the story, mana producing plants are still alive in certain parts of the overworld.
.
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Re: How has your opinion of Quain changed?

Postby H'K'Maly » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:07 pm

Ra'tatosk wrote:
H'K'Maly wrote:
fudje wrote:One question to ask is why is there "less mana available" on the surface?


Because there is more of surface and less fae there. It's only question of concentration. It's the fae who generates mana. Gems only stores it.

That is not the only cause of lack of mana on the surface. In the Moons age there were a lot of manaproducing plants. All that vegetation - vast forrests among them, were destroyed in the demonwars at the end of Moons age. But as we have seen later in the story, mana producing plants are still alive in certain parts of the overworld.
.


Yes. There is lack of mana on surface because there are no mana plants there except the ones elves grow, while in the underground there are no mana plants except the ones elves grow. Thats the difference 8P. True, in Moon age there were lots of mana plants on surface, but the reason why they moved to underworld was the demons, not that they were any mana plants underground. So if you ask "why is there less mana available on the surface that in underworld?" the answer will not involve plants. You are instead answering the question "why is there less mana available on the surface that it used be in Moon age".
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Re: How has your opinion of Quain changed?

Postby Ra'tatosk » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:25 am

H'K'Maly wrote:
Ra'tatosk wrote:
H'K'Maly wrote:fudje asked:
One question to ask is why is there "less mana available" on the surface?

Your answer:
Because there is more of surface and less fae there. It's only question of concentration. It's the fae who generates mana. Gems only stores it.

That is not the only cause of lack of mana on the surface. In the Moons age there were a lot of manaproducing plants. All that vegetation - vast forrests among them, were destroyed in the demonwars at the end of Moons age. But as we have seen later in the story, mana producing plants are still alive in certain parts of the overworld.
.


Yes. There is lack of mana on surface because there are no mana plants there except the ones elves grow, while in the underground there are no mana plants except the ones elves grow. Thats the difference 8P. True, in Moon age there were lots of mana plants on surface, but the reason why they moved to underworld was the demons, not that they were any mana plants underground. So if you ask "why is there less mana available on the surface that in underworld?" the answer will not involve plants. You are instead answering the question "why is there less mana available on the surface that it used be in Moon age".

Sigh, fudje did not ask why the they moved underground, he/she asked why there is less mana on the surface than underground. One reason is because there are more fae underground (an answer you gave), the other reason is that there are no manaproducing plants on the surface (an answer I gave). My answer do not contradict your answer - it complements it.

Remember that there were more mana per dokkalfar at hand during Moons age than mana per drow during Moonless age due to the lack of manaproducing wild growing manaplants (among it the forrests). The mana of the forrests were giving the demons extra power that made them harder to defeat. Therefore the dokkalfar moved underground that were lacking mana (other than that they generated by themselves) therefore a environment easier to control against the demons than the surface.
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Re: How has your opinion of Quain changed?

Postby KitAlda » Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:00 pm

I never was a big fan, but I didn't really dislike her either. She did exactly what I expected of her.

As a drow nothing really makes her have to love her child. Also, Mel has been an adult for a very long time. It is only because Quain actually does care for Mel that she hasn't done this a long time ago, and that she didn't do worse things to her.
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Re: How has your opinion of Quain changed?

Postby Shanna66 » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:16 pm

i like her even more now. she doesnt put up with people's bullshit. sure she isnt the nicest character but each character has their flaws. i used to not like quain but the more shit she does like this the more i like her becasue she is a very consistant character and i always know a scene with quain is a scene with badassery
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Re: How has your opinion of Quain changed?

Postby fudje » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:56 am

Ra'tatosk wrote:Sigh, fudje did not ask why the they moved underground, he/she asked why there is less mana on the surface than underground. One reason is because there are more fae underground (an answer you gave), the other reason is that there are no manaproducing plants on the surface (an answer I gave). My answer do not contradict your answer - it complements it.

Remember that there were more mana per dokkalfar at hand during Moons age than mana per drow during Moonless age due to the lack of manaproducing wild growing manaplants (among it the forrests). The mana of the forrests were giving the demons extra power that made them harder to defeat. Therefore the dokkalfar moved underground that were lacking mana (other than that they generated by themselves) therefore a environment easier to control against the demons than the surface.


And of course the entire point of the question was to point out that the Drow know how to move mana around, know how to tend mana producing life forms, and soldiers are only the pointy end of an army.... If someone (not necessarily Quain'tana or a mini version thereof) decides conquest of the surface is the way to go, they have the resources (foremost of all → knowledge) to, and the force mostly likely to stop them is other Drow clans....
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